Contrary to popular belief, I WILL bet that water is wet, but first I will need to select the judge who decides, pick the water source and I'll need odds on the money. And a buyout if it starts poorly.
How Do Players Double-Dump?
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As "Vincent" said, missing one or two balls can be enough to dump. We all see the best miss a shot they make over 90% of the time so unless they really telegraph it, it can be very hard to know if a miss was accidental or intentional. I think I have seen a lot more backers mad over a dump that didn't happen than one that did. Some backers would go to whittling over pocket change so best to know your backer if you are going to play for them at all!
I refused all backers and refused to participate in the dumps I was offered. My attitude was that anyone dumping didn't think they could win, why the hell should I split with them? Never lost to anyone that came to me wanting to dump.
Hu
I refused all backers and refused to participate in the dumps I was offered. My attitude was that anyone dumping didn't think they could win, why the hell should I split with them? Never lost to anyone that came to me wanting to dump.
Hu
It’s been said, you don’t slow play by missing shots, you do it by missing shape…...lol. Everyone thinks making the ball is tough enough. Try just missing it just enough that an experienced player doesn't pick up on it.
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I've just remembered reading in Cook's book about Titanic Thompson that apparently in his heyday, when you won a bet even by a blatant con or technicality, people just paid up - it was seen as the done thing. So perhaps that went for conning people with the double dump (after telling them you were going to dump, then winning). At least to some extent.
You stood a good chance of getting paid off if you outsmarted somebody. Not likely to be seen with serious gamblers but laying a cue stick on the table then rolling a ball under table and all is an example of this. You didn't do what was expected but you did do what you said you would do.
A dump or double dump is in a whole different category, you plain cheated somebody! Never mind that some planned to be in on the cheating, when you cheat them it is their ox that got gored. Not only are you not going to be paid if it is discovered before you are paid, you may get to inspect the pilings under the nearest bridge in deep water. The money better be worth it because you have made a lifelong enemy that will never forget if you are found out and escape immediate retribution. There is a line that smart people don't cross. Dumping is well over that line.
Hu
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That's what I thought initially. So it comes back to: How did someone tell the rail they're going to dump, then win, without the rail knowing immediately they've been cheated and seeking retribution?
Might hit some wobblers that seem to hang in the jaws then fall but an angry rail is almost a given. The man needs a confederate or two ready to collect his cues while attention is focused elsewhere. Then he will go to the bathroom or bar with a planned exit. Jump into a car and he is gone. While people are chasing him his confederate ducks out with the cues and waits somewhere nearby.
A lot of things to go wrong when dumping the rail. Takes someone very brave, very stupid, or both. If the person has been around at least a week or two and established at least a little reputation for honesty it helps.
Not a guaranty of dishonest doings going on but if you see a vehicle or two backed into parking spots it is a sign somebody thiinks they may have to leave in a hurry and wants to gain those fifteen to thirty seconds while others back out and get lined out on the road. Not a certainty of shady dealings, I always parked for a quick getaway for years gambling alone. Best not to make it easy for sore losers to block you in.
Gambling with strangers where you are a stranger is dangerous. Cheating those people is probably ten times as dangerous or more. I considered playing pool full time in 1973. In six months time one gambler was made dead, one hit over the head so hard he drooled for the rest of his life, and one lost several yards of intestine. These were local gamblers or people known to local gamblers. I decided that life on the road wasn't that appealing!
My first couple years gambling, I got used to leading a parade to my vehicle fairly often. I had brought an oilfield roughneck with me to watch my back while I took off a place way down the bayou without cheating. He was six-five, maybe two-sixty and strong as a bull. A scrapper too. I bought him a little beer, he gambled for low stakes on another table, I lightened the pockets of several people, one behind the other. We left with the usual twelve or fifteen people following us out to my truck. I wasn't tiny myself, nobody wanted to open the ball with me and Mike both! He started talking a few miles down the road and it was obvious he was scared, had been very scared about a situation I had gotten used to. Made me think that I was the one with my head up my rear. I started working things differently and soon I usually left without leading a parade and could come back anytime I wanted to.
You needed to be pretty smooth taking people's money without deceit. Taking off the rail and things like that, you were gonna collect some lumps, lucky if that was all! People don't have to know they were cheated, enough if they think so. Taking off an entire rail some are bound to think there was funny business involved especially when the whole situation was supposed to be a scam to begin with.
My take on things. I got my act together and it worked pretty good for about ten years. Then I met The Girl and settled down to the straight life still in one piece. Doubtful that would have been true had I taken to the road alone. The road warriors that did and survived it were a very special breed. That is why we give them legendary status on AZB. It's living life on the ragged edge at best, and as I said, taking off the rail is many times more dangerous. Got to have an exit plan before you start, never a bad idea anytime you are gambling alone in a strange place.
Hu
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Sounds like you made some very smart decisions. I think the pull of making a living playing pool would be too strong for a lot of people!
What did you do differently when you changed your approach?
Bob, do you think the rational betters moved on to sports and casino gambling where the odds are more clear? Or that the rising availability of legal gambling reduced the need to gamble on shady outcomes at a pool hall?
I did make a living from pool for a few months here and there. Full time on the road career is what I shied away from. It was just a difference in approach. When you step in the door of a strange place you know that if they aren't the first you play, soon you will be playing the best they can throw at you. It feels like and is you against all comers. Feeling that challenge is something I miss.
The difference was while it was still me against all comers now I was much friendlier and outgoing. If I went to grab myself a beer I asked if my opponent wanted one. I was also more talkative and friendly in general. I tried to blend in more instead of me against the world. Some places I went down deep in cajun country english was the second language. One town may be the only place in the world the language they speak is still used. Still buying a few drinks or beers, laughing and telling a joke or story or two, I did a better job of fitting in instead of playing traveling gunslinger. Just little things but it was the difference between leading a parade to my vehicle and shaking hands and goodbyes and "see you soon" whether I ever came back or not. I learned to sell "I'm here to have fun" instead of "I'm here to pluck all you chickens!"
Hu
middleofnowhere
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The pool world is very small especially today with the Internet and cell phones.
I recal one dump I saw where one player had a drunk guy backing him. These guys were so lazy they were not even completing the sets. They would cheat on the score to get it over with.
There is also the double steer. You give the guy what he thinks is good info but you send him into a trap. I never felt bad about this if the guy is a road player. He came to town to make some easy money and it is our intent to make sure he leaves broke.
One thing I always disliked was the pool detective. Although I have used them to good advantage it is still strange they will actually give information on their own friends. In their effort to impress you with what they know, they basically rat out every player in the area. You learn quick where to go, who to stay away from and who the suckers are. Who has money, whose a nit and so on.
I once got unknowingly got involved in what may have been a dump. I went in a place looking to play and made a game with a guy that had a couple of backers. I beat him for around $1100.00. I knew pretty quick he had no chance so I was stalling a bit. Later he says he wants to talk to me.
What he wanted was a part of the money I won. He claimed he knew he couldn't win but kept the backers betting beyond what they should have. The backers by the way, were constantly consoling him worried he would feel bad losing their money. They were not real backers but squares who should never have been involved. Today I would not have done it, but this was 40 years ago and I actually gave him a few hundred.
I don't think he was dumping as much as he wanted to play, but someone else's money so he didn't really care if he lost. I am sure he knew at some point he had no chance and did encourage them to keep betting so he could keep playing. It was probably afterwards he got the bright idea of approaching me. I doubt it was permeated.
middleofnowhere
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It is easier to lose the cueball, get out of line, snooker yourself then intentionally miss a shot. It is just a bad roll and usually doesn't require any acting to go along with it....lol. Everyone thinks making the ball is tough enough. Try just missing it just enough that an experienced player doesn't pick up on it.
Ya that was mentioned earlier as well. I have to agree, but I thought in that Colour of Money scene Tom Cruize missed a ball by fractions of an inch.
middleofnowhere
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Yea, sometimes you have to. The secret is, to keep a player playing he has to blow the games himself. For this to happen he needs to be in real positions to win the game. If there are balls on the table playing 9 ball and they are kind of a problem, miss and give him the table back. Of course I am talking about average players. He needs to be racking the balls feeling he should have won.
The one thing you can't do is look like a complete doofus. You can't look like you can't play. You may want to play more with better players and you can't go from a spaz to a competent player from one minute to the next. You play essentially your game, but not quite.
That is the great thing about 9 ball, it is not that easy to run out for the average player. I am almost always going to let him clear most of the balls. If he gets all the way out, good for him, you want him to win games. More times then not, he will sell out and you can win doing nothing.
Mind you, I am talking like 40 years ago. I doubt in most pool rooms today, what few there are, you are getting anyone to play even $5. 9 ball with a stranger.
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Another flavor of the double dump, in which the side betters are craftily lured into the wrong action was the "two brothers and a stranger" swindle in The Color of Money. Vincent entered a bar, and was in relatively low stakes action against weaker players, winning easily. Fast Eddie walked in , sat at the bar and talked and moved in Vincent's line of sight. Vincent complained that he was gambling and didn't like being sharked by an observer, making himself look like a loser whose concentration was easily broken. After learning how little they were betting, Fast Eddie said something to the effect that "that isn't gambling". After Eddie announced out loud, in rough terms, "I think this guy is a loser. I'm going to bet against him. Who wants action?" The proprietor of the bar, who had already seen that Vincent was a highly skilled player, bit and asked to make a very big bet, a bet that was accepted by Fast Eddie. When Vincent dumped, the swindle was complete.
All ruses in which one or more onlookers is tricked into betting on the wrong side qualify within the boundaries of "dumping the rail."
All ruses in which one or more onlookers is tricked into betting on the wrong side qualify within the boundaries of "dumping the rail."
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Yes, this is always the easiest way to go on the stall, regardless of why. An angry shake of the cue or a quick curse never hurt to sell the deal though. Before jump cues hooking yourself behind a quarter ball or half ball was usually enough to justify a miss.
Your are right as usual but I always think of the rail as being a fair sized group, you get everybody in the place looking for easy money in on the bet. Not necessarily so as you point out, just the way I think of things. Of course "the rail" at the Derby is likely to be far different than the rail at the local bar.
Hu
Maybe it's the 24/7 availability of organized gambling with clear rules. But I think there is also a lot less "I bet I can..." "I bet you can't."
I think the real deal is that the pool halls lost the gamblers that played pool to be able to gamble. Now there are countless easier ways to get a fix for their gambling jones. I see somebody buy fifty or a hundred dollars worth of scratch-offs then keep rolling any winnings back until they were busted. The lotto, poker machines, so many ways to gamble now with little or no skill involved. Compare that to pool where you put in long hours learning and then hours gambling when you can get the same thrill with every pull of the handle!
I don't think pool halls lost that many of the pool players that gambled but they have lost almost all of the gamblers that played pool. There is a difference between the two groups.
Hu
I don't think pool halls lost that many of the pool players that gambled but they have lost almost all of the gamblers that played pool. There is a difference between the two groups.
Hu
Biloxi Boy
Man With A Golden Arm
Playing pool to gamble describes a large portion of Biloxi's players in the olden days. This town thrived on action, and pool provided another source of the rush. Plus, following "The Hustler", pool became really cool. Everything rocked along until drugs became commonplace and then everything changed.