How do these diamond tables play so badly? vid

boogieman said:
@realkingcobra

Hopefully that will notify him. You can probably call him too.

Are your rail bolts properly torqued to 15 foot pounds? If you haven't checked them get a torque wrench and do so. They need checked/torqued once in a while.
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This is very important. I had to invest in a torque wrench but it is well worth it for the table to play correctly.

I can't believe you got brand new Artemis cushions and they seemed "mushy". We have a bunch of older red labels at league and those cushions are still very lively.

-dj
 
RShaffman said:
Hello Mr KingCobra,



Can I bother you for just a few questions?



I saw many of your responses on AZB Billiards and feel you’re rep is pretty much the pinnacle so maybe you would be able to help me.



I have a 9 Diamond red label table. I am lucky to have it but really am having bad luck with the rails. They bank terrible. One thing is they bank very slow. Full table I have to hit literally as hard as I can to make the cue ball go 4 1/2 lengths. I’m 230 and strong as hell so I know it ain’t me. I can also tell as when I play league on Monday’s I lag 2-3 diamonds long when I use my regular at home lag.





Also it banks short on angles (on soft to medium follow shots it’s about 1 ball short and hard hits it ends up way short like a diamond or 1 1/2 diamonds short.



I’ve tried the armor all where the cushions meet the ball and that didn’t work. The nose of the cushions are touching the balls at the 1 and 7/16ths spot on my ruler.



I tried putting expensive Artemis cushions on and it didn’t help. It made it worse a matter of fact. They’re mushy. Very disappointing.



I just bought Brunswick superspeed cushions and I will have them installed soon by a guy down in south Florida named Brett.



Should I have the rubber cushions installed lower or should I change the angle on them?



Please help me as figuring out this red label diamond s worse than mastering a Rubix cube. Tnx, Ray
Click to expand...
Which Artemis cushions did you get? Would you link them? If by chance you got K66 Artemis they are the wrong ones for a Diamond.

This is the cushion Diamond has been installing on all Diamond 9' tables for about 30 years (minus some very early tables). It also has "66" in the title, but it is K55 profile.
shop.diamondbilliards.com

Artemis Intercontinental No. 66 Cushions K55 Profile (set of 6)

Looking for a cushion rubber that's fast, accurate, and long-lasting? Look no further than Artemis Intercontinental No. 66! Made in Germany from premium-grade, full gum-rubber, this six-piece set is built to deliver 20-25 years of exceptional gameplay. Unlike extruded rubber, which contains...
shop.diamondbilliards.com shop.diamondbilliards.com

Might be unpopular opinion today, but if I had an old Red label that I didn't like, I'd have someone like mark gregory recut the rail bevel to match a Bruswick Gold Crown bevel exactly, then put the Superspeed cushions on. It sounds like you are already half way to this idea, since you bought super speed cushions.

Or, if you want it to play like a modern blue label diamond, you'd still need to recut the rail bevel, but install the Artemis cushions linked a few sentences up.

All that said, your whole experience is strange. Usually the complaint on a Diamond is its a hair too fast. Yours is way slow. Something must be off on your table. I'm with the others, check the rail bolts again.
 
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You know you’re a player when.
You’re fundamentals are in order
Straight stroke
Total command of the cue ball
Game management
Adjust to each and every table you play on and the conditions presented to you and as they change you adapt.
Fast or slow cloth, humid or dry, clean or dirty balls, fast rails, dead rails, sliding rails, bouncy rails, long or short, the list goes on, I’ll stop there.
I’ve played on perfect tables until they’re not.
Don’t forget to check the temperature of your chalk and balls. I don’t leave home without a ball thermometer. I find wearing boxers helps until I’m stretched over a rail.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Which Artemis cushions did you get? Would you link them? If by chance you got K66 Artemis they are the wrong ones for a Diamond.

This is the cushion Diamond has been installing on all Diamond 9' tables for about 30 years (minus some very early tables). It also has "66" in the title, but it is K55 profile.
shop.diamondbilliards.com

Artemis Intercontinental No. 66 Cushions K55 Profile (set of 6)

Looking for a cushion rubber that's fast, accurate, and long-lasting? Look no further than Artemis Intercontinental No. 66! Made in Germany from premium-grade, full gum-rubber, this six-piece set is built to deliver 20-25 years of exceptional gameplay. Unlike extruded rubber, which contains...
shop.diamondbilliards.com shop.diamondbilliards.com

Might be unpopular opinion today, but if I had an old Red label that I didn't like, I'd have someone like mark gregory recut the rail bevel to match a Bruswick Gold Crown bevel exactly, then put the Superspeed cushions on. It sounds like you are already half way to this idea, since you bought super speed cushions.

Or, if you want it to play like a modern blue label diamond, you'd still need to recut the rail bevel, but install the Artemis cushions linked a few sentences up.

All that said, your whole experience is strange. Usually the complaint on a Diamond is its a hair too fast. Yours is way slow. Something must be off on your table. I'm with the others, check the rail bolts again.
Click to expand...
Jerimy Chambers and Jack Zimmerman also do great subrail mods.
 
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SmoothStroke said:
You know you’re a player when.
You’re fundamentals are in order
Straight stroke
Total command of the cue ball
Game management
Adjust to each and every table you play on and the conditions presented to you and as they change you adapt.
Fast or slow cloth, humid or dry, clean or dirty balls, fast rails, dead rails, sliding rails, bouncy rails, long or short, the list goes on, I’ll stop there.
I’ve played on perfect tables until they’re not.
Don’t forget to check the temperature of your chalk and balls. I don’t leave home without a ball thermometer. I find wearing boxers helps until I’m stretched over a rail.
Click to expand...
This. iusedtoberich would be driven absolutely bats**t crazy by the Gold Crowns most Germans play on. Absolutely rock hard pocket facings, as they don't extend the subrail so they can use a proper thickness pocket facing, so they just double them up. Makes the pocket facing play like concrete.

We'd see how much he dislikes fast rails (like Diamonds) when playing on such a table. You get too full and need to pound the ball? You better be accurate enough to play the ball into to the biggest part of the pocket, and never brush the rail going in...
 
ShortBusRuss said:
This. iusedtoberich would be driven absolutely bats**t crazy by the Gold Crowns most Germans play on. Absolutely rock hard pocket facings, as they don't extend the subrail so they can use a proper thickness pocket facing, so they just double them up. Makes the pocket facing play like concrete.

We'd see how much he dislikes fast rails (like Diamonds) when playing on such a table. You get too full and need to pound the ball? You better be accurate enough to play the ball into to the biggest part of the pocket, and never brush the rail going in...
Click to expand...
Playing on slow tables where you pound the ball is way better than playing on diamond pin ball machine rails and tic tac bunt pool.
 
ShortBusRuss said:
This. iusedtoberich would be driven absolutely bats**t crazy by the Gold Crowns most Germans play on. Absolutely rock hard pocket facings, as they don't extend the subrail so they can use a proper thickness pocket facing, so they just double them up. Makes the pocket facing play like concrete.

We'd see how much he dislikes fast rails (like Diamonds) when playing on such a table. You get too full and need to pound the ball? You better be accurate enough to play the ball into to the biggest part of the pocket, and never brush the rail going in...
Click to expand...
I’ve played on GC’s with double to triple shims for 30 years. The pockets play fine.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I’ve played on GC’s with double to triple shims for 30 years. The pockets play fine.
Click to expand...
So Diamond's play bad but triple-shimmed GC's are fine, right?? No freakin' way. Fine maybe for bunting games like 1p but double/triple shimmed for rotation aren't worth a shit. Hard as a rock with throat size that rejects any ball hit with anything med speed or harder. Reducing the throat to gaffy dimensions is the worst part of overshimming.
 
jtompilot said:
I’ve seen those extra shims not even and the shim rubber is different than the cushions, there’s no way it plays the same.
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There was a Diamond at one of the MSP houses that i think they tried to set up for 1P. The thing had like half an inch of shims and they weren't even. Pocket facings may as well have been steel, everything rattled from up table, but would drop along the short rail... Fortunately that one was replaced with a factory Diamond.
1740408447292.jpeg
 
garczar said:
So Diamond's play bad but triple-shimmed GC's are fine, right?? No freakin' way. Fine maybe for bunting games like 1p but double/triple shimmed for rotation aren't worth a shit. Hard as a rock with throat size that rejects any ball hit with anything med speed or harder. Reducing the throat to gaffy dimensions is the worst part of overshimming.
Click to expand...
Wrong! Maybe if a hack mechanic did the work with the shims all messed up. In Philadelphia where I grew up the player’s rooms had good mechanics. Triple shimmed GC’s were the standard “table by the counter” table until about 2000 in most areas. And they accepted a hard hit ball better than todays diamonds due to their crazy deep shelf.

And the rest of the “players” tables were double shimmed. And the tables in the back for the bangers had the single factory facing.

Of course longer cushions with only one facing are the best for tight pockets. But an extra shim isn’t the end of the world and championship pool has been played (and played well) on shimmed tables for decades. Many still out there.

Another very important point is the shims are locally installed. The table wasn’t designed with them in mind. The factory table GC has ZERO wrong with its play. On the other hand, a factory Diamond has pin ball machine stupid cushion design, and a mile deep shelf, and stupid facing angles.

So you’re finding a shit hack install of an aftermarket product (shim) and saying that makes a factory GC bad. But everything is wrong on a diamond (except no shims) and it’s good?

I think that might be called a strawman argument? I’m not up with all the manipulative lingo!

Carry on!
 
If you’re going to compare a factory tight table, compare a tournament edition GC to a Pro-Cut Diamond. Single factory facing on each.

But again, that affects a tiny portion of the playing experience. Mostly it comes up when playing one hole and banking a ball near the tit.

Pinball machine rails affect EVERY aspect of every single shot in every single game.
 
BTW, the owner of the room I played in would practice straight pool every day on a double shimmed GC. He would run 100 (most days). He ran his lifetime high run of 315 on that table when he was in his 50's. No way a pro would perform to that level on shitty equipment if the double shims slowed him down. Again, maybe if a hack installed the shims they are no good. But championship level play has been going on forever on shimmed tables.
 
Diamonds caught on, IMO, because bangers thought tight ass pockets with mile long shelves were the greatest thing since sliced bread, and they'd win more games because the rail can't be rubbed in on the way to the pocket. Well they were wrong about that. The pecking order never changed, and it just made non-pro's look like idiots trying to run out.

The other reason is Daimonds were $4k in the early day's when GC's were 8K. Direct from the factory vs through a dealer.

Everyone focused on these two things and completely ignored how bad the rails played. Artificially fast, short angles, and weird spin transfer to the ball. And this isn't just compared to GC's. It's compared to any other commercial table of the time. Even cheap furniture tables (from American brands at the time) played normal, (until their cushions became hard).
 
iusedtoberich said:
BTW, the owner of the room I played in would practice straight pool every day on a double shimmed GC. He would run 100 (most days). He ran his lifetime high run of 315 on that table when he was in his 50's. No way a pro would perform to that level on shitty equipment if the double shims slowed him down. Again, maybe if a hack installed the shims they are no good. But championship level play has been going on forever on shimmed tables.
Click to expand...
a story made up with no credible info
just i knew some guy at some room
iusedtoberich said:
Diamonds caught on, IMO, because bangers thought tight ass pockets with mile long shelves were the greatest thing since sliced bread, and they'd win more games because the rail can't be rubbed in on the way to the pocket. Well they were wrong about that. The pecking order never changed, and it just made non-pro's look like idiots trying to run out.

The other reason is Daimonds were $4k in the early day's when GC's were 8K. Direct from the factory vs through a dealer.

Everyone focused on these two things and completely ignored how bad the rails played. Artificially fast, short angles, and weird spin transfer to the ball. And this isn't just compared to GC's. It's compared to any other commercial table of the time. Even cheap furniture tables (from American brands at the time) played normal, (until their cushions became hard).
Click to expand...
if good players ever started barking about it then it might have been real
instead, its a 576
you dont know as much as you think you do

this thread is reaching greg cantrell like madess
iusedtoberich said:
Playing on slow tables where you pound the ball is way better than playing on diamond pin ball machine rails and tic tac bunt pool.
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why ? did someone with a lower fargo beat you at tic tak toe?
 
Texas Carom Club said:
a story made up with no credible info
just i knew some guy at some room

if good players ever started barking about it then it might have been real
instead, its a 576
you dont know as much as you think you do

this thread is reaching greg cantrell like madess

why ? did someone with a lower fargo beat you at tic tak toe?
Click to expand...
Well the room was Drexeline Billiards in the philadelphia suburbs. You can look up who played in it daily, on double and triple shimmed GC's. One World 14.1 Champion, one US Open 9 Ball Champion, and those two were not even the owner who ran the 315.
 
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iusedtoberich said:
Diamonds caught on, IMO, because bangers thought tight ass pockets with mile long shelves were the greatest thing since sliced bread, and they'd win more games because the rail can't be rubbed in on the way to the pocket. Well they were wrong about that. The pecking order never changed, and it just made non-pro's look like idiots trying to run out.

The other reason is Daimonds were $4k in the early day's when GC's were 8K. Direct from the factory vs through a dealer.

Everyone focused on these two things and completely ignored how bad the rails played. Artificially fast, short angles, and weird spin transfer to the ball. And this isn't just compared to GC's. It's compared to any other commercial table of the time. Even cheap furniture tables (from American brands at the time) played normal, (until their cushions became hard).
Click to expand...
I am a little more positive on Diamonds than you. But I tend to think that gold crown conditions were good. I don’t always get the infatuation with Diamond. They play fast and bouncy and tight and are basically the standard now. So you have to accept the conditions and play. Sometimes I wonder if I should get one for that reason.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Which Artemis cushions did you get? Would you link them? If by chance you got K66 Artemis they are the wrong ones for a Diamond.

This is the cushion Diamond has been installing on all Diamond 9' tables for about 30 years (minus some very early tables). It also has "66" in the title, but it is K55 profile.
shop.diamondbilliards.com

Artemis Intercontinental No. 66 Cushions K55 Profile (set of 6)

Looking for a cushion rubber that's fast, accurate, and long-lasting? Look no further than Artemis Intercontinental No. 66! Made in Germany from premium-grade, full gum-rubber, this six-piece set is built to deliver 20-25 years of exceptional gameplay. Unlike extruded rubber, which contains...
shop.diamondbilliards.com shop.diamondbilliards.com

Might be unpopular opinion today, but if I had an old Red label that I didn't like, I'd have someone like mark gregory recut the rail bevel to match a Bruswick Gold Crown bevel exactly, then put the Superspeed cushions on. It sounds like you are already half way to this idea, since you bought super speed cushions.

Or, if you want it to play like a modern blue label diamond, you'd still need to recut the rail bevel, but install the Artemis cushions linked a few sentences up.

All that said, your whole experience is strange. Usually the complaint on a Diamond is its a hair too fast. Yours is way slow. Something must be off on your table. I'm with the others, check the rail bolts again.
Click to expand...
If I had a red label, I'd buy the Blue top and shim system and call it good
 
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