How do you know which path to take for position?

T

Tech77

New member
First off, this is my first post to the forum after being a long time reader/lurker.

I played pool from age 14 till my early 20's as a fun hobby, no money, won a couple really, really small time tournaments and then life interrupted. So I'm not a new pool player, rather I'm one that spent about 8 years away from the table. I recently started playing again and now that I'm sort of back to the old me, I have the same question I had back then:

I can get position, in fact I'm better at controlling the cue ball sometimes than making the shots when they get super tricky. Pretty good knowledge of English, draw, and follow. However, when I watch pool on television or online, the announcers seem to know about 95% of the time the exact path and layout the shooter will take while running the table. I, on the other hand, look at it like "I'd follow that into the rail" and the player draws back for it...but the commentators knew that the player would draw.

I know it's a long question, but how do you "learn" the "best" way to get position on the ball (lets say in rotation or nine ball) or in 8 ball, how do they know which way the guy will run out? I've wondered this for probably 13 years.

I've spent many hours playing, and I'm a decent pool player as far as executing the shot or the game, but I feel like I'd be better if I could choose the "best" plan for a given layout.

Thanks in advance for answering my long, drawn out question.

Frank
 
First of all, glad you decided to join us on the forum.
As for your question, there are often several ways to get position off the same shot. The decision as to which way you want to go frequently depends on your individual strengths. I know that I can usually do better when I try to use the natural roll, and control it with speed and spin. That isn't to say that I can't control a draw shot, but that my accuracy is usually better with follow. So in many cases, if both options are available, I will choose follow. But, when a simple draw shot is the better option, I will go for it. The pros, for the most part, are just as good either way, so the simplist and most direct path, moving the cue ball the shortest distance, is usually the one they will go for.
The commentaters have watched these guys (and ladies) enough that they can usually anticipate who is going to do what. They also have the ability to see how they are setting up, which gives a clue as to what they are planning.
There is a player at the room where I play who I have matched up with on several occasions. She thinks very much the same way I do. So it is pretty easy for me to anticipate how she is going to play a shot. Unfortunately, because of this, she usually knows how to defense me because she sees the same things that I would do in her position. It does make for some interesting matches.
So one answer to your question comes from just observing how different players handle different situations. I know who will play a 3 rail kick against me, and who will pull out the jump cue.
And while they are frequently correct, sometimes the commentaters are surprised by the shot a player selects. It's part of what makes the game so interesting.

Steve
 
Tech77 said:
First off, this is my first post to the forum after being a long time reader/lurker.

I played pool from age 14 till my early 20's as a fun hobby, no money, won a couple really, really small time tournaments and then life interrupted. So I'm not a new pool player, rather I'm one that spent about 8 years away from the table. I recently started playing again and now that I'm sort of back to the old me, I have the same question I had back then:

I can get position, in fact I'm better at controlling the cue ball sometimes than making the shots when they get super tricky. Pretty good knowledge of English, draw, and follow. However, when I watch pool on television or online, the announcers seem to know about 95% of the time the exact path and layout the shooter will take while running the table. I, on the other hand, look at it like "I'd follow that into the rail" and the player draws back for it...but the commentators knew that the player would draw.

I know it's a long question, but how do you "learn" the "best" way to get position on the ball (lets say in rotation or nine ball) or in 8 ball, how do they know which way the guy will run out? I've wondered this for probably 13 years.

I've spent many hours playing, and I'm a decent pool player as far as executing the shot or the game, but I feel like I'd be better if I could choose the "best" plan for a given layout.

Thanks in advance for answering my long, drawn out question.

Frank
Click to expand...


As Steve has already said, the path that minimizes cue ball movement is often the best path. With that said, I've noticed that many players prefer to play position using follow or draw for most shots. Some do interchange them equally.
 
I've covered this extensively over the years in about 100 different ways, but IMO, the best way to minimize cue ball movement is to learn and master the game of 14.1 - or straight pool.

When you have that experience and knowledge as a foundation to your game, the sky is the limit.

I have some drills posted on my youtube channel that display drills that are designed to minimize cue balls movement - here are links to three of them.

Restricted to Half of the Table

The Crucifix

Connect the Dots
 
Thanks for the input guys, it is appreciated. I will try applying these ideas, and may even go watch some vids to see if it makes more sense now.

Thanks also for the drills, I am always looking for new ways to practice.

Frank
 
I heard from a very well known BCA Master instructor this ........... "Positon play is 80% memory. You had better know where that cue ball is going."
 
To anticipate how a pro would play a layout, one needs to understand some of the ways a professional thinks.

One way to anticipate how a pro might tackle a layout is to look at the layout backwards - from the last ball back to the first. As a 9 Ball example, say the 9 is pretty much in the middle of the table so all 6 pockets will be available for it. But say the 8 is along a rail so that one pocket in particular is the likely pocket for the 8. Now work back. What is the best place to play the 7 ball from, to easily fall on the 8. Then work back to the 6-5-4...this process can work for any problem ball along the rail or during the run where shooting lanes to pockets are blocked etc.

Another is to identify problem balls and clusters immediately (of course, you should always do this). Identifying how you plan to deal with these will often choose the pattern you will play leading up to the problem.

Another often overlooked situation is when there are two ways to play position - one along the line and another across it. All else being equal the pro will most often take the route along the line of position because it affords the most margin for error.

While the professionals are very good at pin-point position play, they are always keeping in mind which side of the ball they want to be on for the next shot to make the following position play easier. Because of their superior shot making skills they can think in terms of correct side first, and pinpoint position second. They will usually choose the position route that more ensures falling on the correct side to make position natural for the next shot.

One more factor - in rotation games, where the shot can be either slow rolled or stroked out, professionals will usually favor making that positive stroke on the cue ball rather than trying to hold it - all other things being equal, of course. An example of this is a thin cut to the corner on a ball near the long rail. I've noticed that pros will tend to stroke this shot and go back and forth across the table rather than slow roll it and try to hold the cue ball off the first rail.

Just some thoughts, hope they help.

---
EDIT: Didn't realize this was in the ATI forum when posting, thought I was cruising the Main forum. I'm not an instructor. Sorry guys.
 
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pooltchr said:
IOW, to know how a pro thinks, it helps a lot to be a pro.

Steve
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LOL. Steve. Reminds me of that joke where Jesus and Moses are playing golf. They're on the approach to a par 4, over a lake to the green. Jesus, a hacker, has about 170 yards to clear the water and says to Moses, "What would Jack Nicklaus hit here?" Moses says, "Nicklaus would probably hit a hard 7 iron, but he's Jack Nicklaus." Jesus says, "If Nicklaus would hit the 7, then that's what I'm going to hit."

Ball goes about 130 yards, right in the middle of the pond.

Jesus drops a ball and, still with the 7 iron in his hand, says to Moses, "Nicklaus would hit a seven iron?" Moses says, "Yes, but we're talking about Jack Nicklaus". Jesus says, "If that's what Nicklaus would hit then that's what I'm going to hit."

Plop. Short again right in the water.

This goes on about three more times and now there are 4 groups backed up on the tee. One irate guy gets in his cart and drives up to Moses and says, "What the hell is the hold up?"

Moses throws up his arms and says, "What can I say, my partner is trying to hit a 7 iron over this lake."

The guy says, "A 7 iron? My god, that's got to be at least 170 yards, it would take a miracle. Who does he think he is, Jesus Christ?"

Moses says, "No, he thinks he's Jack Nicklaus."
 
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Good post

Interesting post. I've always wanted to give some of my favorite pros (Earl, Efren, Buddy) to see how they would play a set of different table layouts. Earl is known for his power game, Efren for his acute cue ball positioning, and Buddy for his cool and collected demeanor.
 
Phil Capelle's "Archer vs. Reyes" DVD is great for in-depth analysis of the minds of two great pros. Watching the DVD and reading about his breakdown of (almost) every shot of two of my favorite pros was just awesome. I wish there were more DVDs like this out there.
 
being smooth like Keith Stone

all things considered.......take the path of least resistance.

Whether moving just the CB or moving the other balls (furniture) there is a natural flow of things, like popping into the rack and breaking a particular two balls.

Even when rolling the CB......ah see ROLLING THE CB, many players cant even roll her. They pound her, spin her backwards.......they spin her outside.......forgetting that the natural motion of the CB is basically FORWARD.......and that Inside english can take your CB travel and swing it the other way.

Dont get so draw happy and outside happy that thats your M.O. keeping you to forget about good ol' follow and inside to hold or swing around through a different quadrant of the table.

You don't force things....if the shot is there you take it, if its there its there....if its not then dont imagine that "luck" will somehow make it change, if you know whats generally going to happen with a shot then you can know the limits of such, with those limits you can play. Use those limits to push the table or the opponent beyond them stuck behind the 8.

I like to roll my balls alot (lmfao sounds HIlariious) i like getting a good natural angle so i can just shoot to follow and roll into my next position, never doing all that much if I can help it......just FLOWING from one ball to the next in a real gentle fashion.

Even when water crashes its still flowing.

-Grey GHost-
 

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greyghost said:
You don't force things....if the shot is there you take it, if its there its there....if its not then dont imagine that "luck" will somehow make it change, if you know whats generally going to happen with a shot then you can know the limits of such, with those limits you can play. Use those limits to push the table or the opponent beyond them stuck behind the 8.
Click to expand...

Keebie, every serious pool player should have that paragraph tattooed, etched, or engraved on their brain.
 
Tech77 said:
First off, this is my first post to the forum after being a long time reader/lurker.
Click to expand...

Welcome Frank

[...]
I can get position, in fact I'm better at controlling the cue ball sometimes than making the shots when they get super tricky. Pretty good knowledge of English, draw, and follow. However, when I watch pool on television or online, the announcers seem to know about 95% of the time the exact path and layout the shooter will take while running the table. I, on the other hand, look at it like "I'd follow that into the rail" and the player draws back for it...but the commentators knew that the player would draw.

I know it's a long question, but how do you "learn" the "best" way to get position on the ball (lets say in rotation or nine ball) or in 8 ball, how do they know which way the guy will run out? I've wondered this for probably 13 years.

[...]
Click to expand...

Take note of those times the pro did something different than you would have done. Look particularly at what would have happened had the cueball rolled 10-15% longer or 10-15 % shorter than it did. Compare that to what would have happened if the cueball on your intended path went 10-15% too far or too short. You likely will find your answer.
In particular, ask yourself
(1) do I still have a makeable shot, and
(2) am I still on the correct side of the next ball

That is, the objective is to have a shot you can make WITH an angle an ON the correct side of the next ball.

The path that does better on these measures if the one that keeps you "on the correct line."

IMO, when people think of position play as trying to get the cueball to a particular SPOT, like in target pool, they ignore much or the richness of position play. Usually the desirable zone for the cueball is not circular. It has a long direction and a short direction. Imagine a dart board that can be stretched out to be a long oval.

The WRONG choice for a path is the one that crosses the dartboard the short way.
 
Like said, take what the table offers and response accordingly. Easier said than done, I often pick the shot that offers the greatest window for my margin of errors. It's not the kind of calculation that requires precise decimal points, but a rough estimation, from experience and from admitting what you can do on a pool table.

Read this article by Tucker. Pay particular attention to the last section titled "3 Position play guide lines & 1 closing thought".

http://www.azbilliards.com/joetucker/joe2.php
 
donuteric said:
Like said, take what the table offers and response accordingly. Easier said than done, I often pick the shot that offers the greatest window for my margin of errors. It's not the kind of calculation that requires precise decimal points, but a rough estimation, from experience and from admitting what you can do on a pool table.

Read this article by Tucker. Pay particular attention to the last section titled "3 Position play guide lines & 1 closing thought".

http://www.azbilliards.com/joetucker/joe2.php
Click to expand...

I love this article. My best buddy, who is a much better player me, has been trying to get me to do the two and three rail leaves for a while now. I've been trying to get more comfortable with them, and this article is simply reinforcing things I've been told a hundred times lately... really good stuff.
 
justadub said:
I love this article. My best buddy, who is a much better player me, has been trying to get me to do the two and three rail leaves for a while now. I've been trying to get more comfortable with them, and this article is simply reinforcing things I've been told a hundred times lately... really good stuff.
Click to expand...

Practice them! Note that article also mentions about courage. To gain courage, practice is a must. Good luck!
 
justadub said:
I love this article. My best buddy, who is a much better player me, has been trying to get me to do the two and three rail leaves for a while now. I've been trying to get more comfortable with them, and this article is simply reinforcing things I've been told a hundred times lately... really good stuff.
Click to expand...

We are sooo fortunate to have Mr. Tucker writing about this game.
 
Blackjack said:
Keebie, every serious pool player should have that paragraph tattooed, etched, or engraved on their brain.
Click to expand...

Thanks David, I take that sort of from the fighters mentality.

You see it all the time in MMA, and Boxing. One of the competitor's trys to play his/her opponents games. This usually results in a losing effort.

Of course we have great all around players, and some guys exel in particular games alone. But even in the games there are certain aspects where one guy does this particularly well and that not so well, where as you do that well and this not so well.

So usually it becomes a battle as to who is going to be steady enough to break the opponent into playing their strategy, the one THEY OWN.

I know that is getting on the psychological side of things but IMOP it rings true, just like you don't BET against another persons proposition off cuff.

I like to think of my imagination as limiitless, and possibly for seconds at a time my play can be as well.......but I KNOW MY TRUE LIMITS. I stay within them as well as I can. Of course sometimes you have to take the flier, but hey we all know when the flier is there and when it aint.

This is where players get in trouble they want to imitate others......so beause that one does this then they want to do it like that. PLAY YOUR STYLE, YOUR LIMITS.....as you grow its YOUR GAME.

That quote i have about it being creative and doing it better than anyone else......that doesn't reference say Effren or the best player alive. It references our own unique personal styles and when we play our own potentials we can do it better than anyone else. Thats why the same person doesn't win every event, the ones that do are in a class of their own al'la' Effren, Willie, Worst, lassiter etc....but they all played exactly like they did not like another.

just things to ponder.
-Grey Ghost-
 
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