How does Shane get the white in the air everytime??

Patrick Johnson said:
Cornerman said:
... my experience tells me that no hop = bad break for me.
My experience (and my theory) tells me the opposite.
And my experience tells me it makes no significant difference at all, at least only concerning the spread of the balls.

Assuming the CB doesn't hop over a foot, I'm having a hard time believing that there would be any significant difference in spread of the balls with a hopping CB compared to a non-hopping CB...significant enough for anyone to say that it was a "good" break or a "bad" break.
 
Cornerman said:
Last I knew, my 1040 says something about an engineer.

Fred <~~~ better ask my wife is she's the engineer in the family

Ha ha...oops. My mistake. I think you still get the point of what I was saying: That I interpreted your comment as saying that you were much less concerned about the physics involved and more interested in the result.

Curious, what kind of engineer are you?

Sorry for the wrong assumption,

KMRUNOUT
 
jsp said:
And my experience tells me it makes no significant difference at all, at least only concerning the spread of the balls.

I think it certainly makes a significant difference when the hop is more than a moderate one.

Assuming the CB doesn't hop over a foot, I'm having a hard time believing that there would be any significant difference in spread of the balls with a hopping CB compared to a non-hopping CB...significant enough for anyone to say that it was a "good" break or a "bad" break.

I'd probably agree with that (although I'd prefer less hop if I can get it without sacrificing something else). I'm emphasizing (maybe too strongly) the principle that less hop = more spread in general and the practice of designing/practicing your break with that in mind (as one important factor among other important factors).

pj
chgo
 
The Balance point on my cue is right in the middle of the grip and personally he does hold the cue further up on the grip when he is breaking then when he is shooting. Not saying this is where the hop is coming from but it gives him a more a longer backstroke and a leveler cue action on the break.
 
What is going on with Shane's hop break can be summed up as follows: the CB is hopping (bouncing) backward in the air because the CB was in the air when it contacted the head ball of the rack (observed), and the reason the CB's back ward movement is arrested when it lands is because it still has some top spin (inferred).

Here is vid that shows the airborne CB:

With the vid paused, click on the timeline at 16:00 to advance the vid to the point at which Shane is down, getting ready to break. You may have to go short and click Play and then click Pause to land on that spot. This is easiest to do and easiest to see the break in full screen mode. He actually hits the CB at about 16:11.

Click on the gear icon near the lower right corner, click on Playback Speed and click on 0.25 (quarter speed) and click Play. If you leave your mouse pointer over the Play/Pause button and you are quick enough you can freeze the CB around the time it hits the head ball or just before.

If the CB was hitting head ball perfectly on its horizontal axis, on the cloth all the way, it would bounce backward but not leave the table surface. Because it is hitting above the horizontal axis it becomes a glancing blow. The physics of the resulting CB bounce is that the angle of incidence is equal to the angle of reflection, the same principle of an english-free ball rebounding off a rail, so the CB gains altitude as a result.

Although he does not stick the CB as well in this video the only way to get the CB to land and squat when hopping the CB is to have some topspin. You can prove this phenomenon by hand tossing a ball on the table. Unless you put back spin on the ball it will roll away from you after it lands. Because Shane's CB is flying backwards relative to the topspin it acts as back spin when it lands, working against the motion of the CB when it lands. Tennis players and golfers use this technique to control ball forward motion.

Why is the CB airborne when it hits? In this case he is breaking while resting his stick on the rail which puts his stick at a downward angle. So even if he hits the CB center ball he is hitting downward on it, causing it to bounce. In the case of this 7 ft table and video quality, it isn't obvious to me if he is hitting it hard enough that it does not touch the table again until after hitting the head ball or if it is bouncing along the way. While he does bridge on the cloth on 9 ft tables I have not studied video to see if he is still hitting downward on the CB but my guess would be that he is..

On the question of what he gains by the CB flying into the air, my take would be, not much. He has to hit the rack with extra force to make all this happen because force that could have gone into the scattering the balls was diverted into launching the CB. When I have watched his breaks over the course of many matches it seems he is relying on chance to pocket balls, the likelihood of which can be improved by additional collisions. This contrasts with someone that works on pocketing specific balls in the rack, such as Cory Deuel (and me), where using less force helps gain control of the breaking outcome.

One possible advantage is that having the CB in the air while balls are whizzing around the table might keep it from getting kicked :) .

Because hitting downward on the CB when breaking will cause it to hop, the only way to avoid that is to get your cue as level as possible, which requires bridging on the cloth. In my experience it also requires elevating the bridging hand, what I call the stilt bridge, similar to bridging over an obstructing ball. While this bridge would appear to be less stable than resting the heel of your hand on the table it works well enough if you aren't trying to murder the rack.

When the cue is level and CB is hit just a little above center the maximum proportion of the force goes into the rack. The small amount of topspin causes the CB to arrest near center table after rebounding off the CB.

Assuming all of the balls weigh the same, the mass of the rack is 15 times greater than the mass of the CB, so not all of the CB force is ever dissipated into the rack because it resists moving long enough for the elasticity of the head ball and the CB to kick the CB backwards.
 
... If the CB was hitting head ball perfectly on its horizontal axis, on the cloth all the way, it would bounce backward but not leave the table surface. Because it is hitting above the horizontal axis it becomes a glancing blow. The physics of the resulting CB bounce is that the angle of incidence is equal to the angle of reflection, the same principle of an english-free ball rebounding off a rail, so the CB gains altitude as a result.
...
The principle of angle of incidence equal the angle of reflection is based on the struck object being very massive and no energy lost in the process. I think the break is more complicated than that. Also, the rack does not act like a ball with the mass of 15 balls. I think it is more like the equivalent of 1.5 or 2 balls. This is fairly easy to measure.
 
If Shane's CB always hops the same way it should be an easy fix (assuming he wants to) - change the distance* a little so the CB reaches the head ball not quite so high up.

*He could also change the speed, spin, elevation, etc., but those are harder to calibrate.

pj
chgo
 
I was sitting less than 8 feet from the rack last night lik1 10 hours ago watching SVB hit the head ball playing by himself, NEVER once was the CB off the table from when it left his tip to when it hit the head ball, if it was I couldnt see it,Its a pop stroke and spin-what ever that means, he dosent crush them at all, its absolute control, and when the rock keaves the cloth there is no control left. how he does i dont know, i do it sometimes and i dont know why.

on a side note I have a friend who hits them harder than Hillbilly, Nevel, anyone-Kim Davenport agrees with me, and he has seen it all. Anyways he could get a little air under the rock(when he wanted to) and I have seen him hit the roof in Tiptons in Stockton a few times, hitting it hard THUD, oh yeah it was a 20' tall lid on that room, when the CB landed back down on the table it bounced higher than SVB lifts it in when he breaks, infact SVB dasent hit them very hard, the just gets that pop-Adam Benke does too.
Hit a 20' tall ceiling?😂😂 I call MAJOR BS.
 
What is going on with Shane's hop break can be summed up as follows: the CB is hopping (bouncing) backward in the air because the CB was in the air when it contacted the head ball of the rack (observed), and the reason the CB's back ward movement is arrested when it lands is because it still has some top spin (inferred).

Here is vid that shows the airborne CB:

With the vid paused, click on the timeline at 16:00 to advance the vid to the point at which Shane is down, getting ready to break. You may have to go short and click Play and then click Pause to land on that spot. This is easiest to do and easiest to see the break in full screen mode. He actually hits the CB at about 16:11.

Click on the gear icon near the lower right corner, click on Playback Speed and click on 0.25 (quarter speed) and click Play. If you leave your mouse pointer over the Play/Pause button and you are quick enough you can freeze the CB around the time it hits the head ball or just before.

If the CB was hitting head ball perfectly on its horizontal axis, on the cloth all the way, it would bounce backward but not leave the table surface. Because it is hitting above the horizontal axis it becomes a glancing blow. The physics of the resulting CB bounce is that the angle of incidence is equal to the angle of reflection, the same principle of an english-free ball rebounding off a rail, so the CB gains altitude as a result.

Although he does not stick the CB as well in this video the only way to get the CB to land and squat when hopping the CB is to have some topspin. You can prove this phenomenon by hand tossing a ball on the table. Unless you put back spin on the ball it will roll away from you after it lands. Because Shane's CB is flying backwards relative to the topspin it acts as back spin when it lands, working against the motion of the CB when it lands. Tennis players and golfers use this technique to control ball forward motion.

Why is the CB airborne when it hits? In this case he is breaking while resting his stick on the rail which puts his stick at a downward angle. So even if he hits the CB center ball he is hitting downward on it, causing it to bounce. In the case of this 7 ft table and video quality, it isn't obvious to me if he is hitting it hard enough that it does not touch the table again until after hitting the head ball or if it is bouncing along the way. While he does bridge on the cloth on 9 ft tables I have not studied video to see if he is still hitting downward on the CB but my guess would be that he is..

On the question of what he gains by the CB flying into the air, my take would be, not much. He has to hit the rack with extra force to make all this happen because force that could have gone into the scattering the balls was diverted into launching the CB. When I have watched his breaks over the course of many matches it seems he is relying on chance to pocket balls, the likelihood of which can be improved by additional collisions. This contrasts with someone that works on pocketing specific balls in the rack, such as Cory Deuel (and me), where using less force helps gain control of the breaking outcome.

One possible advantage is that having the CB in the air while balls are whizzing around the table might keep it from getting kicked :) .

Because hitting downward on the CB when breaking will cause it to hop, the only way to avoid that is to get your cue as level as possible, which requires bridging on the cloth. In my experience it also requires elevating the bridging hand, what I call the stilt bridge, similar to bridging over an obstructing ball. While this bridge would appear to be less stable than resting the heel of your hand on the table it works well enough if you aren't trying to murder the rack.

When the cue is level and CB is hit just a little above center the maximum proportion of the force goes into the rack. The small amount of topspin causes the CB to arrest near center table after rebounding off the CB.

Assuming all of the balls weigh the same, the mass of the rack is 15 times greater than the mass of the CB, so not all of the CB force is ever dissipated into the rack because it resists moving long enough for the elasticity of the head ball and the CB to kick the CB backwards.


Just an FYI,

With the video paused, you can use the "<" and ">" keys to advance or go back one frame at a time. I find this easier than trying to pause at just the right time. And, you can hold down the key to get a bit of a slow motion play of the video.
 
The principle of angle of incidence equal the angle of reflection is based on the struck object being very massive and no energy lost in the process. I think the break is more complicated than that. Also, the rack does not act like a ball with the mass of 15 balls. I think it is more like the equivalent of 1.5 or 2 balls. This is fairly easy to measure.
Good points. It's been about 50 years since I cracked a physics text book, so I am a little rusty.

Suffice to say it does appear from the video that the CB comes off the head ball at a higher angle than the angle of incidence, which would be expected for a spherical surface being struck at an angle.

And yes, the rack moves as soon as the CB is struck because all balls are spherical and start rolling immediately, assuming a tight rack, which dissipates much of the impact force. So it does not act like a solid mass of 15x even though the mass is still there. Whatever the value is it seems to be significant enough to bounce the CB backwards a good ways.
 
Almost every pool tuition book I've seen says it's bad to have the cue ball go up in the air on impact and yet almost every Pro does it.

If you hit the CB with fast speed, have slight topspin on the CB, and hit the 1 ball squarely, it is pretty much impossible for the CB to not hop into the air because the CB is airborne or bouncing on the way to the rack. For more info, see the Cue Ball Hop and Squat on the Break resource page and the Break Technique Advice resource page.

Enjoy,
Dave
 
There are several videos on youtube showing SVB's break technique...including my own. I've spent quite a bit of time studying his technique and I can emulate it somewhat. Face it, it takes SVB's superior natural ability to get the most of this relatively complicated technique.

SVB's break can be broken down like this:

1) SVB sets up low over the cue with his feet pretty close to the table and his back hand very "forward" on the cue. Front leg bent, rear leg nearly locked. SVB takes several long, quick practice strokes. The cue is slightly elevated (~5 degrees) and the tip is aimed somewhere around just below center CB. This you will need to experiment with, but you won't be going to extremes either way.

2) Here's where a lot of action occurs...SVB takes a long back stroke and cocks his wrist (watch the videos very closely to see the wrist movement...its subtle).

3) As he completes 2), he begins raising his torso and transitioning his weight forward...think: slide up & forward...smoothly. This is why he stands close to the table (rear foot more forward than typical) and keeps his wrist forward in step 1. This further elevates the cue (to ~10-15 degrees).

4) As he completes 3), SVB begins his strike on the CB. The key component here is that he drops his elbow (substantially) to level out the cue. By moving his body forward he transitions his "forward" hand position to a more "neutral" position (hope that made sense!).

5) As SVB completes his transition into the CB, his back foot is now in a position to push him forward into the shot. If going for low power, his foot will remain locked to the ground. If he wants a little more, he ends up on his tiptoe. For max power, he wil push off and end up with his foot off the ground. He always ends up with his front leg bent quite a bit and his hips nearly flush with the table. Don't forget to snap the wrist thru.

If you watch the vids closely you will see that he may be hitting the table with his cue on the follow-thru...I do when I emulate this break...you should see the nicks in my J&J. You might even subcontiously think you are going to hit your hand on the rail!

It should be noted that his cue position is level thru impact so that early elevated cue aimed at "just below center" is now a level cue aimed "just above center". This slight top spin is what gives him that charactersitic hit/bounce/squat. If you got it all right, the CB (hit just above center) leaves the felt, hits the head ball on the fly or on the first bounce, rebounds up & back (due to the weight of the rack), land roughly between the side pockets, and have just enough top left on it to come to a halt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YCBs6T2kMI

Excellent post! FYI, I've added a quote to the Break Technique Advice resource page.

Good job,
Dave
 
I use this break techinque when playing 10 ball. ...only 10 ball. It's actually very easy to replicate, even with your bridge hand on the clothe.

It really boils down to what you're trying to accomplish with shape on the the next ball. 8 ball is pretty much park it in the middle and see what you end up with. 9 and 10 both have definitive break strategies based on how the table is breaking, and may require CB movement to a spot on the table that the head ball hop doesn't easliy allow.

Does he lose energy with the hop...?..., certainly. The break stopped being about maximum energy transfer a long time ago.
 
If you hit the CB with fast speed, have slight topspin on the CB, and hit the 1 ball squarely, it is pretty much impossible for the CB to not hop into the air because the CB is airborne or bouncing on the way to the rack.

Enjoy,
Dave
But it's possible even though not likely, right - if the CB hits the head ball at a downward angle that goes through the head ball's center (or below it)?

pj
chgo
 
If you hit the CB with fast speed, have slight topspin on the CB, and hit the 1 ball squarely, it is pretty much impossible for the CB to not hop into the air because the CB is airborne or bouncing on the way to the rack. For more info, see the Cue Ball Hop and Squat on the Break resource page and the Break Technique Advice resource page.

Enjoy,
Dave
But it's possible even though not likely, right - if the CB hits the head ball at a downward angle that goes through the head ball's center (or below it)?

I'm not sure what your mean. FYI, but "squarely," I meant "on the vertical centerline," with no aiming error left or right. Sorry for the confusion.
 
I forgot about this old post I made...the photos will help you visualize what he does. Just remember, everything is a smooth transition...there are no sudden movements.
FWIW, I think these two photos from the above post show that Shane's CB is airborne all the way to the rack - 1 long hop.

pj
chgo

SVBBreak200.jpg
SVBBreak225.jpg
 
In his video about the break shot he talks about his grandfather racking for him over and over till he was able to pop the shot.
 
Just that there must be a possible (if elusive) CB height and angle of approach that's not above "center" on the OB, so it wouldn't hop.
,,,
Well, if the incoming cue ball hits the OB just above center while descending it's possible that the throw force from the follow would stop the cue ball's vertical motion exactly. It would still drop a couple of mm to the table. It is also possible for that to happen when the cue ball is descending and has barely contacted the cloth with perfect spin, speed and flight path and there would be no hop.
 
Well, if the incoming cue ball hits the OB just above center while descending it's possible that the throw force from the follow would stop the cue ball's vertical motion exactly. It would still drop a couple of mm to the table. It is also possible for that to happen when the cue ball is descending and has barely contacted the cloth with perfect spin, speed and flight path and there would be no hop.
This is also how those more adept at high velocity jump shots (distance and cut angle) prevent the CB from bouncing of the table after OB contact. The goal is to land the CB on the OB.
 
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