How does Shane get the white in the air everytime??
- Thread starter macneilb
- Start date
I think you're wrong in the sense that you're only looking at the collision and the transfer of energy from the cueball to the pack of balls . And as correct as that may seem on the surface, I've always stressed that the "efficiency" numbers bandied about has to also include the mechanics of the player.Patrick Johnson said:
It's no coincidence that the top breakers' hop and stop are so common. In a handwaving argument, it's clear that the professional top breakers like Shane and Bustamante (and anyone else who breaks really well) have some kind of mechanical efficiency to break so hard and in control with less effort. The hop is a result, but not necessarily what they're striving for, but it's a common result. What they're striving for is mechanical efficiency in the break. It is IMO a complete and utter waste (and too much tunnel vision) to consider trying to maximize the cueball-to-rack energy transfer efficiency because that's really nowhere near as important as maximizing the player's motion efficiency. That is, there's an acceptable energy loss at collision of the rack if the player's contact with the cueball has been maximized with the entire body, cue, and cueball collision in mind.
Additional handwaving, it's seems pretty obvious that when people emulate the Bustamante, Sigel, and Van Boening break, they see immediate and long-lasting results. I know when I'm breaking really well, the cueball happens to hop and squat. I'm not trying to hop; the cueball just hops. It's that action and the feeling in my arms and body that makes me say, "that was a good break." There's more doom and gloom in trying to "not hop."
Fred
I don't think the CB hopping a bit on the break is a bad thing at all, provided you hit the 1 ball square. I actually tend to think hopping (as long as it's less than a foot) is the desirable thing to do.
When I don't think about doing it, I usually don't hop the CB. When the CB doesn't hop and I hit the head ball flush, I can rarely keep the CB squatted in place. Usually, I have a bit of follow or draw that would move the CB a foot or two forward or backward from center table, but most often the CB would draw back to near the head rail.
However, when I do hit the 1 flush and manage to hop the CB, the CB almost always stays in the center of the table. Any bit of follow or draw the CB retains after contacting the 1 would be greatly dissipated as the CB bounces back down on the felt.
So I actually strive to get a little hopping action to help squat the CB. I concentrate following down through the CB, with my tip finishing on the felt.
When I don't think about doing it, I usually don't hop the CB. When the CB doesn't hop and I hit the head ball flush, I can rarely keep the CB squatted in place. Usually, I have a bit of follow or draw that would move the CB a foot or two forward or backward from center table, but most often the CB would draw back to near the head rail.
However, when I do hit the 1 flush and manage to hop the CB, the CB almost always stays in the center of the table. Any bit of follow or draw the CB retains after contacting the 1 would be greatly dissipated as the CB bounces back down on the felt.
So I actually strive to get a little hopping action to help squat the CB. I concentrate following down through the CB, with my tip finishing on the felt.
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When I played with The Break Rak for 30 minutes I was able to make the cueball squat in the center of the table. That immediately translated into noticeable improvement that evening when I went down to the action tables to play cheap nine ball. Using the Break Rak I was able to focus on what I was doing physically a lot more because I didn't have to set up the rack each time I "broke".
I think that having good video of the top breakers and a tool like the break rack would indeed make jsut about anyone's hard break a lot better.
Shane's and how he does it? The kid grew up on the pool table and he has a good head on his shoulders. Almost all the top pros who started early and had good training have awesome breaks.
I think that having good video of the top breakers and a tool like the break rack would indeed make jsut about anyone's hard break a lot better.
Shane's and how he does it? The kid grew up on the pool table and he has a good head on his shoulders. Almost all the top pros who started early and had good training have awesome breaks.
Cornerman said:
We agree. The hop is a side effect, maybe an acceptable one as I said about Shane, but it's not a goal as suggested by the OP.
Why do you say this? How have you tried to not hop? What was the doom and gloom result?
pj
chgo
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Bigkahuna said:
If she could redirect the energy she spends getting herself into the air she'd move the balls farther. Pretty much the same principle as minimizing CB hop.
pj
chgo
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T411 said:
I'm glad you like it, especially since it's your own. I didn't say that.
pj
chgo
hop and stop
One advantage of the hop back from the head ball is that the cueball doesn't rub along the cloth of the table while bouncing off of the rack to the center table zone. That means that you can hit the cueball with less topspin and still have it stop dead. With no hop you would have to hit it harder with more top spin to have it slide back then die, and a slight mis-hit could result in the cueball zinging forward into the trouble zone. That makes consistency more difficult.
Remember that consistent and effective is the goal, not maximum transfer of power. Shoot, even Ceebee's break rack video shows the hop and stop. (By the way, anyone that is willing to read 4 pages of break posts and doesn't own one of these needs to buy one TODAY!).
One advantage of the hop back from the head ball is that the cueball doesn't rub along the cloth of the table while bouncing off of the rack to the center table zone. That means that you can hit the cueball with less topspin and still have it stop dead. With no hop you would have to hit it harder with more top spin to have it slide back then die, and a slight mis-hit could result in the cueball zinging forward into the trouble zone. That makes consistency more difficult.
Remember that consistent and effective is the goal, not maximum transfer of power. Shoot, even Ceebee's break rack video shows the hop and stop. (By the way, anyone that is willing to read 4 pages of break posts and doesn't own one of these needs to buy one TODAY!).
Patrick Johnson said:
IMO the break isn't about 'maximizing your power' as you put it, its about hitting them hard enough to get a good spread, but keeping the CB on a leash. How many pros are there that do everything they can to "maximize their power" and break them hard as absolutely possible? Maybe Larry Nevel? and as huge as his break is, it isn't as well controlled as shanes. I don't think its technically a waste of power b/c it makes for good control of the CB. as a side note, watch shane break and tell me if he looks like he's got a loss of power
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They try to mazimize power, but obviously not at all costs. In another post I said this about Shane's break:
In other words, what I meant is that they try to maximize power within their control range, but their control range is quite a bit broader than most of ours so they can use more radical techniques.
pj
chgo
macneilb said:
That's what I meant. See my last post above.
pj
chgo
Nowhere but up
when you hit that 1 ball square, the cue ball has a certain amount of energy depending on how hard it is hit. The rack of balls has a certain amount of mass or resting energy. the cue ball can't go left...right..or down...so the only place for it to go is up..... nowhere but up.
when you hit that 1 ball square, the cue ball has a certain amount of energy depending on how hard it is hit. The rack of balls has a certain amount of mass or resting energy. the cue ball can't go left...right..or down...so the only place for it to go is up..... nowhere but up.
Patrick Johnson said:
Okay I see what you are saying. Let me say this and maybe your saying some of the same things: a lot of people that excel at a sport have technique that one may not teach the average person. Many are gifted and see and adapt and do things in a way that many of us cant. Thank goodness some coach did not try to change Jamal Wilkes sweat but awkward jump shot. I do not think a coach is going to teach a kid to have a batting stance of Gary Sheffield, He had a lot of movement but he had a rhythm and could hit the ball. Many great pool players can get away with a longer than average bridge and it lets them see the shot different. Look at Keith?s awkward stroke. Things that a coach may not teach the average person but you cannot argue with results (well you can). I am sure that Shane has control of if he wants whitey to do and I?m sure he has a reason for it.
Patrick Johnson said:
Okay I see what you are saying. Let me say this and maybe your saying some of the same things: a lot of people that excel at a sport have technique that one may not teach the average person. Many are gifted and see and adapt and do things in a way that many of us cant. Thank goodness some coach did not try to change Jamal Wilkes sweat but awkward jump shot. I do not think a coach is going to teach a kid to have a batting stance of Gary Sheffield, He had a lot of movement but he had a rhythm and could hit the ball. Many great pool players can get away with a longer than average bridge and it lets them see the shot different. Look at Keith?s awkward stroke. Things that a coach may not teach the average person but you cannot argue with results (well you can). I am sure that Shane has control of if he wants whitey to do and I?m sure he has a reason for it.
