How does your high run compare with your average?

krupa

krupa

The Dream Operator
Silver Member
My high run is only 20 right now and when I practice running balls (i.e., setting up a break shot and running balls) I usually pocket between 6 and 15. 10 and 11 is getting to be pretty regular. So my high run is about twice what I'm starting to expect from myself on an open table.

Is that common or are you guys always playing up near your high runs?

-matthew
 
krupa said:
My high run is only 20 right now and when I practice running balls (i.e., setting up a break shot and running balls) I usually pocket between 6 and 15. 10 and 11 is getting to be pretty regular. So my high run is about twice what I'm starting to expect from myself on an open table.

Is that common or are you guys always playing up near your high runs?

-matthew
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I don't recall ever doing this to see how many I could run but your ratio of 2:1 seems very unusual.

I think a typical "B" player would only expect to run half of their personal best about every fifteenth inning doing this. For a top pro, perhaps they would reach half their personal best every fourtieth inning.

Although I could be wrong here, your results suggest that you do a poor job of leaving a decent break shot, meaning you are probably shooting the balls in the wrong order and leaving end patterns that are tougher to execute than they should be. However, you must be a halfway decent pocketer given your average balls pocketed.

Overall, good for you that you're working on your game. Wishing you success!
 
I don't get to play matches with good 14.1 players often so I have no idea what my match average would be.

If I'm playing and practicing straight pool consistently I find that I run about 50 once per 1-1.5hr practice session, not every session but more than not. I'll also have a couple 20's and a 30. In between all of those are a combination of runs of one rack or less. My high run sits at 131 in practice and 115 in a match.

I averaged out a couple of my practice sessions a while ago to around 17-20 balls per inning, which includes all of my 2-10 ball runs and misses. No idea where I'd sit in match play though. Probably less, maybe the same after consistent competition, who knows?

I remember doing stats on the first Harriman and Schmidt match, Danny's average was around 24 or 25 balls per inning and John won with 33 or 34 balls per inning. That included all misses but I excluded safety shots. I think to win at a professional level you need to maintain around a 30-35 average. Incidentally it's similar in snooker, you have to maintain a 30-40 break average to win at a professional level.
 
sjm said:
I don't recall ever doing this to see how many I could run but your ratio of 2:1 seems very unusual.

I think a typical "B" player would only expect to run half of their personal best about every fifteenth inning doing this. For a top pro, perhaps they would reach half their personal best every fourtieth inning.

Although I could be wrong here, your results suggest that you do a poor job of leaving a decent break shot, meaning you are probably shooting the balls in the wrong order and leaving end patterns that are tougher to execute than they should be. However, you must be a halfway decent pocketer given your average balls pocketed.

Overall, good for you that you're working on your game. Wishing you success!
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Thanks.

I'm definitely bad at leaving a break shot and key ball. Also, I know that I tend to leave clusters too long and therefore can't break them up.

However, after reading your and Carmeron's post, I'm thinking I need to go back and record my practice sessions again to get an accurate picture of my average. I could just be selectively remembering the good runs and ignoring the bad.

Thanks again,
-matthew

Update: Reality is harsh mistress. Before I left for work, I set up 10 break shots and ran until I missed or fouled. Average balls per inning? 2.1. But it was early, I wasn't warmed-up, blah blah blah, excuse excuse excuse... I still rock. :D
 
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If you keep track of total score divided by innings, you may be surprised. I play in a straight pool league and I've had high runs in the 40s, yet my average is typically 3-4 balls per inning when calculated out. A lot of it depends on how many safeties are played, etc. I've always heard that an average of 10 balls per inning in a match is pretty good. Maybe some of the other people in straight pool leagues will chime in here.

If I had ball in hand to begin with on every shot, it would be much higher of course.
 
innings

Samiel said:
If you keep track of total score divided by innings, you may be surprised. I play in a straight pool league and I've had high runs in the 40s, yet my average is typically 3-4 balls per inning when calculated out. A lot of it depends on how many safeties are played, etc. I've always heard that an average of 10 balls per inning in a match is pretty good. Maybe some of the other people in straight pool leagues will chime in here.

If I had ball in hand to begin with on every shot, it would be much higher of course.
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I do not think that innings should count towards ones average when playing a safe b/c a player is not attempting a offensive shot to add points. Our league has always counted safes but it just does not make sense to me. It is not fair to count a safe as a inning. So, I believe our average is not a true one.
 
14-1StraightMan said:
I do not think that innings should count towards ones average when playing a safe b/c a player is not attempting a offensive shot to add points. Our league has always counted safes but it just does not make sense to me. It is not fair to count a safe as a inning. So, I believe our average is not a true one.
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of course safes should be counted as an inning, especially when trying to figure ones handicap.

when the league operator does the score sheets and sees that you played a safety in an inning, he should in turn look at the opponents score sheet for that same inning to see if he scored points as a result of your safety.

just my .02 cents
-Steve
 
First of all, a safety or intentional scratch counts as an inning. With this in mind, Here are the balls per inning figures from the US Open 14.1 event of 1967.

1st place finisher Jimmy Caras had an 11.02 BPI
2nd place Luther Lassiter had 6.86
3rd place Irving Crane had 9.29
4th place Dallas West had 8.26
5th place John Ervolino had 7.00
6th place Jack "Jersey Red" Breit had 6.66
7th place Joe Balsis had 10.70
8th place Frank McGown had 6.86
9th place Steve Mizerak had 9.23
10th place Dan Gartner had 8.16
11th place Alton Whitlow had 6.66
12th place Maynard Parish had 4.81
13th place Lou Butera had 10.05
14th place Cisero Murphy had 7.96

I have read that Mosconi's BPI was 15.1 and that Sigel, when he was playing his best, was typically around 13 BPI.

As for BPI on a turn begining with an open table, Jck Colavita, who had several top ten finishes in the World 14.1 championships, one told me he reckoned he had to average 35 balls if he expected to have a chance to beat the best.
 
stevekur1 said:
of course safes should be counted as an inning, especially when trying to figure ones handicap.

when the league operator does the score sheets and sees that you played a safety in an inning, he should in turn look at the opponents score sheet for that same inning to see if he scored points as a result of your safety.

just my .02 cents
-Steve
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Stevie, I understand what you are trying to say but my opponent innings should have nothing to do with mine. Each player should have their own individual stats counted up depending what they attempted during their match.
Now, if all stats are counted per inning like the list above states. So be it but I do not agree that is the way it should be. I will never understand why a inning is counted against a player when they make no attempt to pocket a ball.
I can understand..... Yes, a safe is a inning over all b/c a player has come to the table for some type of shooting motion. It is the over all total of innings of a match.
But when counting a player's average there should be two stats of innings per player for each match. It would be a lot more work to do it my way but this is only my opinion. I do believe that I "might of" been wrong one other time in my life but I am really not sure if it so............LOL
 
14-1StraightMan said:
Stevie, I understand what you are trying to say but my opponent innings should have nothing to do with mine. Each player should have their own individual stats counted up depending what they attempted during their match.
Now, if all stats are counted per inning like the list above states. So be it but I do not agree that is the way it should be. I will never understand why a inning is counted against a player when they make no attempt to pocket a ball.
I can understand..... Yes, a safe is a inning over all b/c a player has come to the table for some type of shooting motion. It is the over all total of innings of a match.
But when counting a player's average there should be two stats of innings per player for each match. It would be a lot more work to do it my way but this is only my opinion. I do believe that I "might of" been wrong one other time in my life but I am really not sure if it so............LOL
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I tend to agree, especially as it relates to this thread. I think the purpose of the thread is to determine what our general ball running capabilities are as compared to high runs. Saying that you averaged 6-10 balls per inning doesn't tell the whole story and really provides a very limited indication of you're ball running capabilities as it does the type of matches you were involved in. Playing against cagey opponents will drag you're average down and weaker or overly aggressive players will inflate it.

I think the best way to chart you're ability and improvements is to average out scoring innings. It does a better job of displaying you're ability to take advantage of scoring opportunities. It also provides a more tangible bar to aspire to.
 
14-1StraightMan said:
... I will never understand why a inning is counted against a player when they make no attempt to pocket a ball. ...
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But many times a player has a choice between attempting to pocket a ball (granted, it may be a low-probability shot) or playing safe. He isn't forced to play safe. If he chooses the safety (a certain zero) rather than going for the shot (which may or may not result in zero), why shouldn't that be figured in the averages? If his inning consists of pocketing just one ball (or two balls or three balls or ...) and then playing safe, you'd count it, right?

I do understand your view, Mike; just presenting another way of looking at it.
 
AtLarge said:
But many times a player has a choice between attempting to pocket a ball (granted, it may be a low-probability shot) or playing safe. He isn't forced to play safe. If he chooses the safety (a certain zero) rather than going for the shot (which may or may not result in zero), why shouldn't that be figured in the averages? If his inning consists of pocketing just one ball (or two balls or three balls or ...) and then playing safe, you'd count it, right?

I do understand your view, Mike; just presenting another way of looking at it.
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If a player makes a ball & then plays Safe. It is counted as a inning b/c they have made a ball within that inning.
If a player comes to the table & states "safe" then it is not a inning towards their average. Low % shots have nothing to do with it.
I hope this helps you understand.
If a player comes to the table after a openning break shot (which is a safe) and runs 75 balls & then plays safe. That is one inning for that player.
Now the two players get into a safe match & 20 safes goes back & worth.
The score is still 75 -0. The player gets up & calls a shot & pockets it & goes on to run 75, game over. 150-0. Yes, it was a 22 total inning game but only two shot innings were attempt to pocket a ball. Why should 20 innings count against a player's average that they did not attempt to make a ball? Answer: It should not. So, that player has a two inning point scoreing game.
The only thing that I can compair it to is baseball. When a batter gets up and Walks..... A walk does not count in the batter's average. That is the same thing as a Safe.
 
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14-1StraightMan said:
The only thing that I can compair it to is baseball. When a batter gets up and Walks..... A walk does not count in the batter's average. That is the same thing as a Safe.
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You need to define an equivalent to 'on base percentage' for pool. Are there any sabermetricians in the house?

:)
 
14-1StraightMan said:
I think you are reading between the lines.... Making it harder then what it is.
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Just making a bad joke. I don't think stats matter too much in this area; people know when they're playing well or not.

As newer player, I'm recording my practice sessions to [hopefully] see improvement over time.
 
14-1StraightMan said:
I do not think that innings should count towards ones average when playing a safe b/c a player is not attempting a offensive shot to add points. Our league has always counted safes but it just does not make sense to me. It is not fair to count a safe as a inning. So, I believe our average is not a true one.
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I agree with you. The way it is done now and has always been done includes safes, but that does not seem fair to me. A safety battle in the middle of the game skews the number and now you are comparing apples to oranges.
 
one of the things i like about using the iPhone app Note14-1 is that it spits out stats like this for me.

i was having a crummy night last night: high run of 22 was the only inning over one rack, jarred the pockets a Lot, the balls were sticking like glue, and the white one was like a psychotic rabbit.

the app says my average (playing against myself, no safeties) was 3.74 bpi.
 
After thinking about this, does it really have to be one or the other? Can we have two statistics? Looking strictly at scoring innings doesn't really tell the whole story either. But both of them together can be quite interesting.

Lets say Tom defeats John 150-76 in 30 innings. Tom has a bpi of 5 and John 2.53. I don't feel we get a lot of information here. Either there was a ton of safeties or both players didn't play particularly well, especially John. However if we indicate that Tom had 5 scoring innings and John had 2 scoring innings we get a little more of the story. Tom average 30 balls per scoring inning (a respectable average) Tom average 37.5 balls per scoring inning (also respectable. Add to this each players high run for the match (Tom ran a 67 and John ran 43) and you have some very interesting statistics.

The breakdown as follows

Tom 150
innings - 30
scoring innings - 5
bpi - 5
bpsi - 30
HR - 67

John
innings 30
scoring innings-2
bpi - 2.53
bpsi - 37.5
HR - 43

The story from the stats is that both ran the balls well when they got into the balls, but you can clearly infer Tom outplayed John in the tactical department as John only had 2 scoring innings to Toms 5.

It wouldn't be too hard just put x's and o's next to innings to indicate safeties or scoring/unscoring innings.

I just feel that alongside the impartial bpi, the bpsi would be great for not only seeing how well a player is running the balls and for leagues it does a much better job of tracking player progress.

As for the thread itself. I kept track of my average today while practicing, I pocketed 162 balls in 8 innings (didn't have time for 10), averaging 20.62 balls per inning, with a high run of 57. Keeping track of averages is very interesting, if I had managed the same average with a high run of 33 balls I probably wouldn't have looked at the session as being as good as I do with a high of 57 even though, objectively speaking, the performances are equal.
 
wigglybridge said:
one of the things i like about using the iPhone app Note14-1 is that it spits out stats like this for me.
Click to expand...

I am very pleased to read that you find the App useful. If you have any suggestions what could be improved, please let me know. I am just planning to change it to a Universal (IPhone and IPad) Application.
 
AFeller, very glad to know you're here, and Thank You for making such a nice app!

i'm going to start a separate thread on Note14-1, so's not to hijack this one, and also because i think more people should know about it, and comment on ideas.
 
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