How Ethical Is It?

Lisa, I don't know you, but I have to wonder why you have it out for 9ballking? It seems pretty obvious that you are talking about him, as you mention the "hyping" of cues.

I read the thread about the Barenbrugge cue and I know he has recently tried to sell a Tascarella and a Frey by the means you describe.

I have no dog in this fight, I'm just curious why all of your animosity has been directed at him lately? What did he do to you to cause all this strife?

Maybe I am offbase here and will have to apologize, but I don't think I am.
 
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SLIM said:
why would you do that to someone just because they were making a profit.

Would you also turn in another cue maker if he sold more cues than you?

Do you really think cuemakers turn in all their profits to the irs?

SLIM
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If I were a custom cue maker and I wanted my cues to be resold as new, then I would have a contract with a distributor for that. It's very simple.
 
FranCrimi said:
When someone orders multiple items like that, I would guess that it would be a red flag to the manufacturer that there is probably intent to resell the items. No?

If I were a cuemaker and found out that someone was putting my items up for sale and at a profit with no work on their end, even before they took delivery, I would be pissed as all hell.

I would then make sure it didn't happen again by contractual agreements with all clients. They would have to sign an agreement as a condition of the sale not to resell my cues for a certain period of time, and breach of contract would have legal repercussions. This may not stop people from hawking the cues, but they won't be able to go public, and they would always have to wonder if they were going to get caught.

Another thing a cuemaker can do is to report them to the IRS on suspicion of not having a sales tax resale number.
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Now that is a scary thought, but I would bet that a number of the people building cues and cases would not make that kind of report because people who live in Glass Structures never throw stones.!!:smile:

JIMO
 
brandoncook26 said:
Lisa, I don't know you, but I have to wonder why you have it out for 9ballking? It seems pretty obvious that you are talking about him, as you mention the "hyping" of cues.

I read the thread about the Barenbrugge cue and I know he has recently tried to sell a Tascarella and a Frey by the means you describe.

I have no dog in this fight, I'm just curious why all of your animosity has been directed at him lately? What did he do to you to cause all this strife?

Maybe I am offbase here and will have to apologize, but I don't think I am.
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Actually, I really do not have it in for anyone...I happened to run across a thread, and wondered what the ethics involved were. If I was out to get anyone, I would straight up out them.

It was a practice I had not encountered before, and just wondered if the behavior was ethical or not...because, I really don't know...which, again, is why I asked. It is interesting, however, how some people can read more into something than is actually there.

Lisa
 
TATE said:
Hi Lisa, good to see you posting again.

I saw for example recently somebody trying to do that with an $800 cue. It went something like - pay me my $100 deposit back and pay the cue-maker the $700 balance, and you have the cue.

Since there was no profit involved, I think it's totally ethical as long as the stated facts are true and each person is aware of and approves the 3 way agreement.

- I'm sure the cue maker would rather have $700 than an unsold cue and $100 cash.

- The original buyer would rather not lose his $100 deposit

- The prospective new buyer can buy a cue from a presumably desired maker without a long wait.

I see it as win-win-win.

The way the economy is, the circumstances are such that a typical six month to a year wait can find a lot of people out or work, investment accounts down, home values upside down , etc - all of which could affect someone's desire to spend on non-essential items.

Chris
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I agree, the cue maker would rather move the cue than have the 100 and the cue. At least the guy is trying to move the item as opposed to just leaving the cue maker stuck with the cue and the small deposit. I had one guy order a case and let me tool on it for two weeks knowing full well the whole time that he wasn't going to end up taking it. He just left me stuck with it, with nothing more than a half hearted apology.
 
Rusty Melton said:
I agree, the cue maker would rather move the cue than have the 100 and the cue. At least the guy is trying to move the item as opposed to just leaving the cue maker stuck with the cue and the small deposit. I had one guy order a case and let me tool on it for two weeks knowing full well the whole time that he wasn't going to end up taking it. He just left me stuck with it, with nothing more than a half hearted apology.
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Its' the same guy who would say " I have to cancel that $1000 case you're almost done with, the one with my full first, middle and last name tooled Sheridan style in front of the last supper painting on the front and the ten commandments on the back. You think I can have my $50 deposit back?" :grin::grin:
 
Rusty Melton said:
I agree, the cue maker would rather move the cue than have the 100 and the cue. At least the guy is trying to move the item as opposed to just leaving the cue maker stuck with the cue and the small deposit. I had one guy order a case and let me tool on it for two weeks knowing full well the whole time that he wasn't going to end up taking it. He just left me stuck with it, with nothing more than a half hearted apology.
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One item...sure, if both the buyer and seller agree, why not? That's not the original question, though. The original question was about a number of items. When there's a pattern of several items like that involving the same buyer, something is fishy.
 
So the situation is that the buyer places orders i.e. takes up spots on the list. Then when the cue is nearing completion he sells the spot for the price he paid by having the buyer send the deposit to him and the balance to the cuemaker?

And in order to sell the spot he hypes up the cue brand when he has actually not seen any cues from that maker?

Doing the first thing is not unethical at all. Even if he sold his spot for a profit it's not unethical.

Doing the second, making statements intended to be taken as fact or personal experience about a product's quality when you have no experience with it is unethical. Of course if you are simply parroting what others have said, as in anyone who has owned on says it's the nuts, then that's ok.

No custom maker wants to have to deal with trying to sell an ordered cue if they have a line of orders. Only a very select few cue makers have the type of clients who have a general "I will take anything you make" type of situation. The rest are busy taking orders and trying to keep up with them. They don't have time to build and sell cues without orders. So anything that keeps the process flowing without a loss of revenue is great.

I feel that taking spots on a list with no intention to purchase the cue is unethical but how do you prove that unless someone says it? I think that it would be better to allow people who intend to play with the cue to not have to wait behind flippers and list-groupies. But then who is who really?

It's all so convoluted these days with lists and such. Get on his list before it's two years long.......on some level it's a lot of hype seemingly designed to help flip cues for higher prices. I guess it's supply and demand but to me it's demand driven by hype to some degree.

As Jack Justis famously said, "People will say nice things about things they want to sell". So OF COURSE every cue or case that people get their hands on becomes the "it" thing and will be praised to high heaven when offered for sale. The thing is that SOME of those items deserve the praise while others don't deserve it so much. And some items which truly deserve more credit end up being passed over because they are not part of the in-crowd's group of cues/cases that are in favor at the moment.

Defintely a lot of interesting dynamics happening in the pool world. Worthy of study in my opinion. Fascinating on many levels. Ethical? Well, this is pool after all and we all know that just about anything goes in pool. I think for the most part it's no harm no foul. Everyone gets paid and goes home happy.
 
TATE said:
Its' the same guy who would say " I have to cancel that $1000 case you're almost done with, the one with my full first, middle and last name tooled Sheridan style in front of the last supper painting on the front and the ten commandments on the back. You think I can have my $50 deposit back?" :grin::grin:
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That's why I don't start work until the money is paid for up front. Been stuck a few times in the past and don't plan to get stuck again.

If someone comes to me with a hardship claim then I will do what I can to sell the case - including changing it from their name - and then refund them all the money less expenses unless I was able to sell the case for enough to cover expenses. The original buyer doesn't get paid though until I sell the case.

I also withhold a 20% design fee UNLESS it is a really tragic situation.
 
There used to be a waiting list for new Harleys. A $500 deposit would buy a place in line, sometimes 2-3 years ahead. Alot of guys profitted by selling their deposit ahead of time. I didn't see any prob.

P.S. The bikes are sitting on the floor now.
 
I find it amusing when someone says a cue is the best hitting cue ever, posts pictures so all his buddies can pat him on the back for having such a wonderful, beautiful cue, and then sells it immediately. Repeatedly.

Almost seems to be doing it for the praise, congrats, oh I'm so jealous, etc. Having realized that thrill, the cue is then for sale to make room for the next cue, which of course is now the best thing ever.

And of course the best hitting cue ever has only been "test" hit before it's sold. Wow, I'm impressed. Merely test hit a cue and determine whether it's the best. Should have been a surgeon with those magical hands.

I wouldn't buy anything from these people. But to each his own. If somebody else wants to facilitate this behavior it's no skin off of my nose. But again, I'd let them choke on the stuff until they couldn't afford to do it any more.
 
justtapitin said:
I find it amusing when someone says a cue is the best hitting cue ever, posts pictures so all his buddies can pat him on the back for having such a wonderful, beautiful cue, and then sells it immediately. Repeatedly.

Almost seems to be doing it for the praise, congrats, oh I'm so jealous, etc. Having realized that thrill, the cue is then for sale to make room for the next cue, which of course is now the best thing ever.

And of course the best hitting cue ever has only been "test" hit before it's sold. Wow, I'm impressed. Merely test hit a cue and determine whether it's the best. Should have been a surgeon with those magical hands.

I wouldn't buy anything from these people. But to each his own. If somebody else wants to facilitate this behavior it's no skin off of my nose. But again, I'd let them choke on the stuff until they couldn't afford to do it any more.
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Tap, tap, tap!!!
 
justtapitin said:
I find it amusing when someone says a cue is the best hitting cue ever, posts pictures so all his buddies can pat him on the back for having such a wonderful, beautiful cue, and then sells it immediately. Repeatedly.

Almost seems to be doing it for the praise, congrats, oh I'm so jealous, etc. Having realized that thrill, the cue is then for sale to make room for the next cue, which of course is now the best thing ever.

And of course the best hitting cue ever has only been "test" hit before it's sold. Wow, I'm impressed. Merely test hit a cue and determine whether it's the best. Should have been a surgeon with those magical hands.

I wouldn't buy anything from these people. But to each his own. If somebody else wants to facilitate this behavior it's no skin off of my nose. But again, I'd let them choke on the stuff until they couldn't afford to do it any more.
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Yep. And it gets to the point where statements like "best case ever" and "best cue ever" don't MEAN anything.

Last night I received a phone call from one of my dealers. His customer had purchased another brand of case because he had read several times that it's "the best". The customer already owned a fine and expensive case from another maker. When he got the hyped "best case" he called my dealer to complain about it and they agreed to exchange it for another brand which I make. The other brand case arrived and my dealer called me to introduce his customer through a conference call.

The customer explained that he owns a business and holds several patents in his industry. He said that he was so very disappointed in the first case he got but that he was equally pleased by the second. He said he went over it meticulously and had no advice for me as to how to make it better speaking from an engineer's perspective. Naturally this is the kind of praise I like to hear.

He said most things are marketed on the perception of what it is and the actual thing falls short. For the case we built he said the actual thing is just like it's marketed. This is one private customer's opinion based on his personal experience with high end equipment and an engineer's eye. The point is that in a marketplace like this people are "marketed" to by other people who don't look at things with a truly HONEST eye. They look at things with selfish and vested interests. For the dealers and flippers it's that they need to move their inventory so they hype the brands they have. For flippers it's to build their ownership portfolio so that they can say they "owned" this cue or that cue brand and put their 2cts in.

And then for the normal guy who stumbles into all this and is convinced to buy that "best ever" cue or case and gets it only to find it's not all that he is then sucked into the hype machine because in order to sell it in the very same marketplace he has to say that it's great so that someone else will buy it. Very few people have the wherewithal and the financial security to blow a couple thousand telling it like it is to blow the lid off some of the hyped up products knowing that when they do those brand that they own will be instantly and greatly depreciated. (not to mention that they will also be denigrated for offering a testimonials that does not praise the in-crowd's pet brands)

All this is to say "don't believe the hype". (but it gets hard to tell what is and what isn't hype)
 
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Get paid

This is one of the most convoluted threads I have ever seen here. It is evident that there are different interpretations of the original post. Regardless, if everyone gets paid according to the terms agreed upon for their individual transaction; "who gives a rat's _ss!"
 
Talking up a cue or other piece of gear on the main forum (not in the FOR SALE forum) to be the most fantastic thing ever, then shortly thereafter it just happens to be for sale after all (and after, oh I'll NEVER sell anything this great) is the legitimate "ethics" question.

That's similar to a Wall Street "pump and dump" and it happens all too often even though it is rightly illegal. Here I suppose it's merely annoying.

And I still love the test hit thing. I've hit it just enough to know it's the best thing I've ever hit, but not enough for it to be a used item.

Knock yourself out if you want to buy. You earned it, you spend it. I'll pass.
 
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