How Fractional Aiming Systems Help

dr_dave said:
Stan,

Honestly, I'm not interested in trying to guess what alignments and pivots you or other CTE users might use for each of the 15 shots. What I am interested in is a basic understanding of the conceptual questions implied by the following paragraph (quoted from above):
As is clear on your DVD and in the brief summary of your approach, as interpreted by me, the alignment and pivot choices change with shot cut angle. As the cut angle changes in small increments between shots A and C, the choices for alignment and pivot change at certain points in the range. At each point where they change, because neighboring shots of the group of 15 are so close together, it seems reasonable to conclude that different alignments and pivots should be able to be used to pocket the same shot. It also seems reasonable that the alignment and pivot will not change for certain ranges of shots among the 15. Therefore, it would seem reasonable to conclude that a single alignment and pivot should be able to be used to create a range of cut angles. However, if you follow the procedure listed here accurately and consistently (and don't make any "adjustments" whatsoever), it seems to me that it would result in the exact same cut angle every time for a selected alignment and pivot, and for a given CB-OB distance and chosen bridge length, assuming a rigid and fixed bridge. Obviously, this particular cut angle will work for some of the shots in the range, and it won't work for others (depending on the distance to and size of the pocket), because every shot in the range requires a different cut angle (assuming center-pocket aiming).​

Here are the important conceptual questions implied by the paragraph:

1.) Can two different alignments and pivots be used to pocket the same shot (e.g., a cut angle between two of the 15 shots where a slightly thicker cut would suggest one alignment/pivot choice and a slightly thinner cut would suggest a different alignment/pivot choice)?

2.) If a single alignment/pivot selection can be used to pocket a range of shots (e.g., a sub group of the 15 shots that all use the same alignment and pivot), what does the shooter do differently (related to the procedural steps) to accomplish the different cut angles required within the indicated range of shots?

I think answers to these questions are key to understanding CTE and how it is used effectively. You are probably the best person to provide answers, so I look forward to your explanations.

Thank you,
Dave

PS: BTW, if you really want me to guess at appropriate alignment and pivot choices for each of the 15 shots, I'd be happy to take a stab at this for you, but I honestly don't think it would serve any useful purpose. On the other hand, it would be interesting to hear what different CTE users would select for each shot. Do you think most CTE users would select the same alignments and pivots for the 15 shots that you would? I would suspect there would be a lot of inconsistency in the selections. And maybe it wouldn't matter what people select as long as they have a good "feel" for how to make it work at the table.
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Didn't think you could post anything significant.
 
lfigueroa said:
oh yeah, and it's not like Stan doesn't have the entire Grand Ole Opry backing him right now, lol.

Three against all youse... go get more guys, so it'll be a fair fight :-)

Lou Figueroa
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Explain that 6 ball in the side shot for us Lou.
 
cookie man said:
Didn't think you could post anything significant.
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Ditto! :frown:

I still hope we can have an intelligent and mature discussion related to the important questions brought up.

Continually disappointed by the level of maturity in this thread,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
Ditto! :frown:

I still hope we can have an intelligent and mature discussion related to the important questions brought up.

Continually disappointed by the level of maturity in this thread,
Dave
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As a collective, we are disappointed by your lack of professional courtesy. If lack of maturity was your only problem you probably wouldn't be that bad of a guy.
 
Dr. Dave, my original request was for 5 shots and then you raised me to 15. I called your bluff as I saw it and then you folded. I was serious about this.
Game over! I need to get busy with other things.
Have a great day!
Stan
 
It's pretty clear after all this time and all the threads about it that there will be no straight answer to the simple question: "How are shots with the same 'visual' but different cut angles aimed differently with CTE?"

This question goes to the heart of the "system vs. feel" issue, so it gives CTE dogma defenders hives, the wheels come off the thread and the blunt knives come out (thankfully they're not allowed to have sharp ones).

Even though CTE is a good example of the topic of this thread, I don't think we need to use CTE as the main example if it's going to induce another "episode" for its defenders.

pj
chgo
 
stan shuffett said:
Dr. Dave, my original request was for 5 shots and then you raised me to 15. I called your bluff as I saw it and then you folded. I was serious about this.
Game over! I need to get busy with other things.
Have a great day!
Stan
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I understand. These threads can be very time consuming. I'll save the questions for a future discussion when there is less vitriol and bad feelings floating around (... I know ... I'm dreaming).

I hope you get some work done. I will try to do the same.

For future reference, here are the questions that I think would be very instructive to explain and understand (for CTE users and non-CTE users alike):

1.) Can two different alignments and pivots be used to pocket the same shot (e.g., for a cut angle where a slightly thicker cut would suggest one alignment/pivot choice and a slightly thinner cut would suggest a different alignment/pivot choice)?

2.) If a single alignment/pivot selection can be used to pocket shots over a range of cut angles, what does the shooter do differently to achieve the different cut angles required within the range of shots?

Maybe I'll start another thread some day, after all of the nasty dust settles.

Best regards,
Dave
 
im back :thumbup:

i could give you the answer if you like dr dave and also to any and every cte question you may have! i will let Stan answer unless he wants me too.i have answered this many times already also. I also see PJ is back in this and he will shortly throw all this off course :(
 
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dr_dave said:
I understand. These threads can be very time consuming. I'll save the questions for a future discussion when there is less vitriol and bad feelings floating around (... I know ... I'm dreaming).

I hope you get some work done. I will try to do the same.

For future reference, here are the questions that I think would be very instructive to explain and understand (for CTE users and non-CTE users alike):

1.) Can two different alignments and pivots be used to pocket the same shot (e.g., for a cut angle where a slightly thicker cut would suggest one alignment/pivot choice and a slightly thinner cut would suggest a different alignment/pivot choice)?

2.) If a single alignment/pivot selection can be used to pocket shots over a range of cut angles, what does the shooter do differently to achieve the different cut angles required within the range of shots?

Maybe I'll start another thread some day, after all of the nasty dust settles.

Best regards,
Dave
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I'll try to answer, hopefully to get this sort of back on track...

1) Typically no. However, if the shot is close enough to the pocket and within the transition areas it is possible to sneak it into the pocket using a different pivot/alignment. I know you might think this would happen all the time, but it's literally within a degree or two between the very thick/thick and thick/thin shots where this might come up, and with just a little experience it's usually obvious which one will work. Certainly for me when I was learning I might pick the wrong one and barely miss (I play on tighter equipment) then would try the other and make it center pocket.

2) You definitely would use the same alignment/pivot to tackle groups of shots within certain ranges of angles. I don't do anything differently to make them - so for example, a 20 degree shot might be aimed the same way as a 21, 22, 23, 24, etc. degree shot. What differs is only the relationship between the cueball and object ball and the resulting differences in perceiving the CTE line and aim points which results in a slightly different starting position or aim approach. The rest of the steps before and after, including the pivot, are identical.

When balls are close or beyond a certain distance there are some adjustments that are made because of the way we visualize the shots, but those are covered completely in the DVD and work quite well on the table. It is a very visual system, and just like with ghost ball you get better over time through practice knowing how to shoot which shots. I certainly don't even think about it anymore, it's automatic.


I hope I didn't misstate anything and I hope this helps as I intended, since my only goal in this is to help people understand CTE better if they want to and to have a civil conversation with the others about pros and cons vs. other aiming systems or approaches.

Scott
 
1.) Can two different alignments and pivots be used to pocket the same shot (e.g., for a cut angle where a slightly thicker cut would suggest one alignment/pivot choice and a slightly thinner cut would suggest a different alignment/pivot choice)?

The answer to this is yes for some shots and i do this sometimes on purpose.

2.) If a single alignment/pivot selection can be used to pocket shots over a range of cut angles, what does the shooter do differently to achieve the different cut angles required within the range of shots?

I have said cte/pro1 takes away as much feel (guesswork) as possible and is not a 100% free of feel for over a year or two now! Every time a ball or both balls move, you will have a new ctel and the aim line and that means you will move in at a different positions. With experience you will get a very good grasp of the cb,ob and the pocket and the better you get and the more you understand the system the more you will start seeing the shot or feeling the shot (i put that in for you guys ;)) this is how i can make any shot on the table including dr daves famous three shot thing.

Now i have said many times this is an evolving system! Whether it was intended to be that way, i dunno? I can tell you for the dr daves 3 shot drill, if you were to continue it across the table or any other ball positioning you can dream up. I would use my experience with cte/pro1 and the cb,ob and pocket location i learned from the system to make all shots. I will have adjusted from shot to shot. The system has taught me that.

Again this is an evolving system it will change with user experience for the last time!!! its not just about using lines like a robot and shooting, the system is a teacher/instructor in it-self and by far the best system out there!!

Untitled-7.jpg


This system is not 100% free of feel, no system is!! get over this already!!!!!!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT PJ!!!!!!!!!!!!! its agreed on for the last time!!!!!!!!! stop bringing it up post after post!!!!
 
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brad21156 said:
As a collective, we are disappointed by your lack of professional courtesy. If lack of maturity was your only problem you probably wouldn't be that bad of a guy.
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You should try aiming that at the "professional" instructor amongst us :-)

Lou Figueroa
mit the appropriate
pivot
bridge
body turn
and fidget
 
lfigueroa said:
I guess chickens can fly.

Lou Figueroa
short distances
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wtf, look at this guy? lol is he pretending he is 7 years old or something? $%^& unreal


Now dr dave all that DAM stuff you have up on your site was made a long time ago!!!!!! by a lot of different people that did not use cte/pro1 and were naive about it and cte. Now i have seen really ridiculous stuff from non cte users on here too! I think you should do some adjusting to that section on your site.
 
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Ixnay on the eelfay! If the need for feel had been agreed upon long ago, there would be nothing left to beat each other up about.
 
Bambu said:
Ixnay on the eelfay! If the need for feel had been agreed upon long ago, there would be nothing left to beat each other up about.
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well mr PJ feels the need to continue on the topic of feel on a daily basis because he is unable to continue further in the cte discussions because of lack of knowledge. he went from probably one of the most knowledgeable people on cte 15 - 20 years ago around to knowing nothing more than anyone who comes across dr daves site :) just follow his post and you will see, he pretty much knows now what he did 15 years ago which was his choice, and he has a few followers that look up to him, for some strange reason?. do you see now why these threads end up the way they do? I have tried many a time to bait dr dave into a cte discussion for a long long time but he is selective at what post he responds too like PJ, i have made every possible offer to him lol. just go back a page and read through and you will see him and pj duck and dodge posts. I dunno, apparently im a troll and know nothing about nothing and im not here to help anyone according to some, what ever! lol im the champ thats all i kniow lol! ;)

Patrick Johnson said:
I'm not trying to be an ass either, but you frankly don't get most of what you read here.

pj
chgo
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hammer-time.jpg
 
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