How good does an APA team need to be?

Bola Ocho- Nice post, basiclly spot on.

I play apa, not because I like it, but because my dad plays and some close friends of mine play also. They are all around the 4 level and its about the only way I get to enjoy pool with them.I myself am a 7 so I basiclly play the other teams best player and let all my guys bang balls with the other teams players untill 1 team accidentaly wins the night. Its torture but hey- these guys arent going to play in big cash tournaments with me or anything so what the hell, 7 bucks a week.....

Anyone who truely believes you don't need to sandbag to win.....lol tell another one buddy.

Come play in our division, we give 3s break and run patches.

It sure is nice of you to lower yourself and play with the peasants... Sorry it bothers you so much. If it causes you so much discomfort, I would advise that you play with the big boys and stopping rooting around in the mud with us bangers, who accidentally drop a ball in for the win.

Sheesh. Just because you are unhappy doesn't give you the right to make others unhappy by *****ing and moaning. Wow.
 
I've found 1-2 drinks before my match makes me more relaxed and play better.

Does having 1-2 drinks make you drunk? :confused::smile:


A drink helps to take the edge off. I usually have one before I have to speak before a crowd or audience in those rare occasions.


I was talking about guys that drink to where it decreases their game performance. Might be fun for them, but it's not ideal for competition.
 
An honest team can not win, bottom line. If you have 7's on your team or 6's let them play early. Shoot your best sandbaggers at the very end. 7's and 6's rarely if ever get watched or moved up. 3's, 4's, and 5's get caught and DQ'd often. Limit how many times they have to shoot, let your best players play first, make sure at least 6 of your players are under handicapped and you have a small shot of winning. It's best to know some of the referees so they can give you a heads up about complaints or warnings in most cases they can be your best friend in the room.
 
In my experience in playing APA in 4 different places across the country, I would say that it depends on where you play. Ive been to Vegas from 3 of those 4 locations and am currently trying to conquer the 4th now. In 2 of the 4, you could have 3-4 players carry a team while mixing in others. In the current league, you better be 8 deep of players who are better than average for their handicap or you will have a difficult time navigating your way to Vegas.
 
It sure is nice of you to lower yourself and play with the peasants... Sorry it bothers you so much. If it causes you so much discomfort, I would advise that you play with the big boys and stopping rooting around in the mud with us bangers, who accidentally drop a ball in for the win.

Sheesh. Just because you are unhappy doesn't give you the right to make others unhappy by *****ing and moaning. Wow.

Ok I had to re-read my post, and it turns out I could have come off a little arrogant. My bad, that's not what I was trying to do.Believe me for everyone I consider a banger, there are probobly 2 players who could consider me one, and rightfully so.

I was making the point that I use apa as a means to enjoy pool with colleauges who otherwise would not play pool with me. However, I know enough to say that competitively-apa sucks. And what I mean by accidentally winning- I've seen many decent players lose by dumb rules or rediculous spots that the handicap system gives up.

8 ball no call pocket, take what you make on the break- or my personal favorite-losing because you pointed at the pocket for the 8, not using the gay little marker?

9 ball no push,no jump cues-even if you can use one properly....what are they doing here?


Doc.....officially off his high horse.
 
"9 ball no push,no jump cues-even if you can use one properly....what are they doing here?"



They are levelling the playing field. This is what gives the lower players a better chance to win in this league than any other I have played in.

I have played BCA and in the league I played in the team with the better players won every session 6 sessions in a row.

If that is what suits you best, the great, but i prefer a league with a little more parity.
 
or my personal favorite-losing because you pointed at the pocket for the 8, not using the gay little marker?

Unless your local division has different bylaws, all you have to do is agree with your opponent at the beginning of each match (or before the 1st 8-ball shot) how you're going to mark the 8, and you're fine. You can agree to point, you can agree to use chalk (even though the Team Manual recommends against it and many players think you're not allowed to use it), you can use a little toy "Shrek" Donkey toy, or a cute little half-8-ball marker, whatever.

Just agree up front; problem solved. If your division actually requires some specific marker beyond what the national rules call for - yes, I agree: gay.
 
good read

Here are some thoughts on what makes a successful APA team as far as handicaps and skills go. This post is incomplete and only covers a few things since I don't feel like writing a book on the subject.


First of all, you need winners. It doesn't matter what skill level they are, there are players that are winners and those who are losers. This has to do with attitude, competitive spirit and brain power. A good example is an SL3 that has been around a long time, knows a lot of moves in the game (smart), doesn't do anything silly or disastrous in their matches and who comes to win and never gives up. The reason they don't go up is because they don't possess the stroke and skills to run more balls and decrease innings.



Ideally, you want a team built of all players who typically produce winning percentages season after season, but who don't go up in handicap.

Next, you want players who are strong in their handicaps but who are unlikely to go up. Much the same as what I've said above, but a different angle on it. You want an SL5 that is at the upper end of SL5 in skills, but doesn't have the ability to get to SL6. Say two equally handicapped teams match up. 3v3, 5v5 etcetera. One team has players that are all strong in their handicaps - that team should crush the other team.


Sandbagging, a big part of APA play. Successful teams have good sandbaggers. A good sandbagger is NOT someone who is great at dumping (any clown can do that). A good sandbagger is someone who knows exactly how much to dump to keep the team successful, and who knows exactly how much to kick it into gear and win without going up. Sandbagging is the art of applying your higher skills in a way that leads to success within the rack without altering your handicap level. The APA is infested with these people.

I've seen way too many bad sandbaggers. Guys that dump all season and then turn it up when it counts. They over do it and go up in SL and get disqualified because of that. These are the idiots that get burned and usually either go away or get dropped from teams.


Scorekeeping. This is an important part of sandbagging and is basically cheating, but this post isn't about ethics, it's about what makes a successful APA team. The APA is about sandbagging and cheating without getting caught.

All the successful teams are also masterful scorekeepers. They put effort into making sure that safeties are not marked and to argue and pad the innings. If you have 5 innings marked for a game, they always have 6 or 7. If you have 3 safeties marked, they have 1 or none. They'll argue that they're right, and usually the other scorekeeper agrees cause they fear looking bad as if they weren't paying attention to the match missing innings (this is the case most of the time). When they don't agree, they often meet in the middle, which still works out for the sandbaggers.

The sandbagger, in collaboration with the scorekeeper will work to keep innings high. Usually it goes like this, the teammate scorekeeper says to their own player "was that a safe shot?" ...this is a PREEMPTION question that isn't sincere. The player as they walk away from the table goes "No, I was trying to make that in the corner" ...this works 95% of the time as the other team is oblivious to such tactics, and even if suspicious, they don't want to argue it or the human nature of believing people or giving the benefit of the doubt.


I could go on and on, but I'll move on to other aspects.


You need players that can play under the pressure of going to Vegas or while at Vegas. Avoid recruiting chokers and people who crack. There are so many players look and play great during the season, but become completely worthless in regionals. We're talking SL5's that beat everyone down, and then in regionals have the ball pocketing skills of an SL3 or SL2 because of pressure. Confident people who are focused and hungry to win is what you want.


As a captain, you should be open to all possibilities to win and advance. One of those is dirty dealings. Become friends and associate with a couple of other teams and work in cooperation with one another. Say you're in 4th place at it's the last week, you match up against your friend's team who isn't in the running - agree to have them all dump their matches to boost you to the playoffs. Likewise, do that for them if they are in the running and you're already qualified or not in the running.

This depends how close you are and they are with their players. Loose lips sinks ships as they say. If that trust level isn't there, then it can be done another way, by agreeing only with the other captain to get all the matchups you want. This isn't a guarantee to win, but it's better than nothing. You get all the match ups, he doesn't coach his players for victory.


Moving on,,,,,You don't want any careless players. Careless players are players that overlook things or don't pay attention to detail. Doesn't matter what skill they are. Details matter. What I'm referring to is awareness. You want players with good awareness. Are they alert and aware of the game's situation? They should know when to ask for a coach and when to not, or to not at all if it is agreed that the captain decides when they need one or not. They should always be aware of 8-ball scratches, dangerous game-ending shots at all times. No matter the skill level. This includes racking. Every player should learn to rack the balls well. This means, not leaving certain balls loose which facilitated the 8-ball being made on the break easier.


Good teams NEVER throw away matches. They force their opponents to earn every single rack. Players must have good discipline to avoid all risks, meaning no 8-ball loss of games. No accidental caroms into the 8-ball sinking it early.


A team that can eliminate all unnecessary wasteful losses like mentioned above will literally add anywhere from 2-3 up to 4-5 more points in the season. When you miss 3rd place by 1-2 points, the difference could have been just cutting down on the give aways.


Best way to do that is through education. Captain and higher levels should teach the lower levels what to look for. Also, all disasters that go unrecognized should be stopped using coaching. If a player has a dead scratch shot on the 8-ball and they are allowed to shoot without a coach, it's the captain's fault. This is a team breakdown. That's letting a train wreck happen without hitting the brakes.

You don't want flakes on the team. You want reliable people that will be there. Avoid people with special circumstances. Can't play before 9, can't play after 9 etcetera. Those with work burdens, serious health issues. People who can't play late cause the smoke irritates their eyes. Need a team of people who all can play their best game if called upon to play last, which may be as late as 12 or 1am.


Finally, no drunks. We've all heard the "he plays better drunk" nonsense. Yeah right. Just like everyone drives better drunk right? APA is a league full of drinkers, but if you want success - get players, not drinkers.


There you have a real basic primer that covers the basics, but is far from complete nor covers all the topics of APA success. There are heinous tricks and other tactics I'll refrain from sharing. Just keep in mind that the APA is a sleazy league and the scum rises to the top.


If you want gentleman play and more integrity, consider joining the BCA or a different league.


When does the second chapter come out?
 
huh?

IMO having the CB leaving the bed of the table is against the spirit of cue sports. The balls are meant to roll, not fly.

Any other type of flying ball is penalized, why this exception?


The CB leaves the bed of the table on nearly every shot.But I do agree that the APA does not need jump cues.
 
"9 ball no push,no jump cues-even if you can use one properly....what are they doing here?"



They are levelling the playing field. This is what gives the lower players a better chance to win in this league than any other I have played in.

I have played BCA and in the league I played in the team with the better players won every session 6 sessions in a row.

If that is what suits you best, the great, but i prefer a league with a little more parity.


I thought leveling the playing field was the equalizer system, you know where in 9 ball the higher players must make more balls than the lower players? It actually somewhat works in 9 ball because weaker players get credit (points) for every ball they pocket, even if they do not win the game. Higher sl players need to rely on running out more balls to win, and certainly not giving up ball in hand-which is exactly what taking away the push and jump cues cause to happen.

Blackball- Jump cues being allowed or disallowed is another topic altogether, but for now they're legal, and they work well in other leagues- interestingly enough they are legal in the apa masters program and in the us amateur championship, which apa host.

Toostrong- yeah we just agree to call it usually at the local level-then go to regionals and even if both players agree and a ref sees you shoot an unmarked 8....too bad for you- so I'm sticking with gay as the description of that.
 
leveling the playing field

I thought leveling the playing field was the equalizer system, you know where in 9 ball the higher players must make more balls than the lower players? It actually somewhat works in 9 ball because weaker players get credit (points) for every ball they pocket, even if they do not win the game. Higher sl players need to rely on running out more balls to win, and certainly not giving up ball in hand-which is exactly what taking away the push and jump cues cause to happen.

Blackball- Jump cues being allowed or disallowed is another topic altogether, but for now they're legal, and they work well in other leagues- interestingly enough they are legal in the apa masters program and in the us amateur championship, which apa host.

Toostrong- yeah we just agree to call it usually at the local level-then go to regionals and even if both players agree and a ref sees you shoot an unmarked 8....too bad for you- so I'm sticking with gay as the description of that.

Not having a push out and not allowing jump cues is part of the system. When you allow these you are just giving the stronger player one more weapon to dominate and they will be the only ones to use it to any effectiveness. JMO
 
i fail to see how a roll out couldn't be learned by something as simple as a SL 1.

It prevents an immediate BIH. You can't see the ball? You might be a 1 but that's not the skill level of your brain; you're smart enough to push the ball out..

Jump cues are apart of the game now. The equalizer is suppose to even this out anyhow right?
 
roll out

i fail to see how a roll out couldn't be learned by something as simple as a SL 1.

It prevents an immediate BIH. You can't see the ball? You might be a 1 but that's not the skill level of your brain; you're smart enough to push the ball out..

Jump cues are apart of the game now. The equalizer is suppose to even this out anyhow right?

Yes, anyone can shoot a roll out shot just like anyone can use a break stick or play a defensive shot but the stronger player will always have the advantage with any of these. As for the push out, the fact that the strong player does get hooked from time to time and has no shot at all is what gives the lesser skilled player a chance to shoot. If allowed to push out the strong player will push out to an area that is still very difficult and the weak player will pass. The stronger player takes the shot and continues to control the table thus taking away that players chance at the table and in a lot of cases their last chance to shoot. Jump cues are a part of some games now but even a lot of pros don't like them. Lock a player down and they jump out and make a good hit or make the ball when a ball in hand would have been awarded.

All the rules are part of the system.

No, the skill level 1 is not an idiot, they just don't have the skills yet to make a good roll out if they had the chance. Even with a time out for the lower skilled player most of the time a push out will still only benefit the strong player.

Why is it that the strong player should have another tool to beat a lesser skilled player with. Aren't they good enough without it.
 
i fail to see how a roll out couldn't be learned by something as simple as a SL 1.

It prevents an immediate BIH. You can't see the ball? You might be a 1 but that's not the skill level of your brain; you're smart enough to push the ball out..

Jump cues are apart of the game now. The equalizer is suppose to even this out anyhow right?


A low player like an SL2 needs what? 19 points or something? 14? I forgot the APA's SL's and point requirement for 9-ball. Doesn't matter.

The point is, the bottom players play so weak that in a rotation game like 9-ball, all they are going to do is make (not even all the time) the hangers, ducks, slop shots and an occasional longer range lucky shot.

How many of those shots occur in a match? Might not be 14 - 19 of them for them to win. Therefore, a couple of ball in hands (or more) helps them nip away a few more points which makes it theoretically even.

Their wins come from sinking the left overs and sell-out hangers of higher handicapped players who don't have run-out power.


While I bash APA 8-ball handicapping for being a broken system and a total joke, from what I understand, the 9-ball system is pretty fair and works well. Almost no complaints about it.

Unfortunately, playing 9-ball for points is completely stupid.
 
Yeah the big ball spot combined with no pushout or jump cue does make for fairly interesting games with a sl2 or 3. The problem I have is how do you beat a player who CAN run out following a bih situation. Say for instance a 7 plays a 5 thats a 55 ball to 38 ball race. 7 breaks gets bad roll on break and no chance of making a good hit on the 1. BIH the 5 level player runs out now its a 55 28 race with the 5 breaking. In that instance the no push rule effectively makes the 5 a 3 and gives them the break. The pushout is a move in 9 ball that better or smarter players can utilize to their advantage. Basiclly once your about a good 5 or 6 level your playing runout pool anyway so then its gonna come down to who moves better or safes better.

I feel like I've hijacked this thread so I'm gonna give this topic a rest-feels like were beating a dead horse, and its never gonna change anyway so the hell with it.
 
A low player like an SL2 needs what? 19 points or something? 14? I forgot the APA's SL's and point requirement for 9-ball. Doesn't matter.

The point is, the bottom players play so weak that in a rotation game like 9-ball, all they are going to do is make (not even all the time) the hangers, ducks, slop shots and an occasional longer range lucky shot.

How many of those shots occur in a match? Might not be 14 - 19 of them for them to win. Therefore, a couple of ball in hands (or more) helps them nip away a few more points which makes it theoretically even.

Their wins come from sinking the left overs and sell-out hangers of higher handicapped players who don't have run-out power.


While I bash APA 8-ball handicapping for being a broken system and a total joke, from what I understand, the 9-ball system is pretty fair and works well. Almost no complaints about it.

Unfortunately, playing 9-ball for points is completely stupid.

I wasn't talking about the higher player being able to push out i was talking about the lower level ones being able to..

If you give a 9 BIH with the table spread.. it's over. Now if the SL 2 or 3 or w/e could have pushed out and avoided the BIH.. might be different.
 
But not intentionally or perceptably so.

Just because the APA doesn't allow jumping does not mean there are no jumps. I regularly see people use their stiff playing cue with hard tip and pop the CB over a crevice or even a full ball.

And to say you believe the ball should not leave the table intentionally is silly IMO. So you now think its ok to handicap a match by taking away equipment, in this case the jump cue? What's next, the SL7 has to use a bar cue when playing a SL4 or below?

Don't get me wrong, I play in the APA, this is my second league I've been in. Do I enjoy it.... it's ok at best. It's really the only way I can play competitively with out traveling a ways. I get tired of being accused of sandbagging when I honestly have a bad game ect.

My team is honest. Maybe to honest and our handicaps show it. Last session, we demolished the field during the season. Came to playoffs, we lose 3-0 in 8 and got crushed in 9. Against the same people we had been mopping the floors with. So in the particular league I am in now, I think you would have to be on the shady side to advance to Vegas. The league before, a little more honest and a variety of teams winning each year.
 
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