How good does an APA team need to be?

Wow, you're dating yourself Bola. You are relating stories (if they are even true) that cannot have happened in the past eight years.

Eight years ago (or seven, or nine, my memory isn't what it used to be), the APA provided league operators with new computer software. This software DOES NOT ALLOW a league operator to lower a player's skill level below what the computer calculates it to be. So, either you're lying, or relating local "urban legends" that are not true, or remembering things that happened nearly a decade ago..........



I could care less what you say, because seeing & hearing is believing. I don't appreciate being called a liar here. None of this happened over 8 years ago. I'm well aware of the computer system.

If anyone here is being dishonest, it appears you'd be the candidate. You conveniently left out the fact the LO's can override handicaps in that computer system. They have to have that ability, to be able to add new players that request to come in at a higher handicap. If not, then the APA would have no problem with new players slaughtering everyone on their way from an SL4 to an SL7. Players can also be lowered. LO has ultimate authority over the handicaps of his franchise because only he/she is in tune and in direct interaction with his/her players. The corporate APA doesn't care as they expect the LO to police his own leagues. As far as they are concerned, they will DQ teams that have handicaps go up in their tournaments.

Everything I have said in my posts is 100% accurate and true. SL4's being made into SL2's, SL7 being made into SL6 in exchange for coming back with a team etcetera. There are more of these situations. I just touched on a few. I actually have been holding back on talking about the really, really sleazy deals being done since I don't want to get too specific on a public forum. Even more egregious acts.


Paksat talked about people who can make a call and have a handicap changed. This is FACT. I have seen this many, many times. Seen meaning witnessed it directly. Not hearsay, not pool room rumors. I was there.


I don't know why you feel the need to come here and defend the APA and play the apologist. No one called you a sleazy LO. Unfortunately, many of your colleagues are complete sleazebags. You've stated your ideas on fairness and integrity at least a dozen times here and I and everyone else has no reason to doubt you. Kudos to you for running a fair and legit APA franchise. But you seem to be the exception, not the rule. I'm sure I can speak for others when I say this, it's unfortunate other LO's aren't more like you. It would be a better league, despite it's handicap system flaws and inane rules.


Yes, there are LO's that collaborate with teams and essentially facilitate and sanction rampant cheating and unfairness. Their goal is not fair competition, or a league of integrity, it's keeping warm bodies in the league as fair, unfair, sportsman or sandbagger is irrelevant - they all pay $8 a week all the same. He's got to put food on the table, so he really doesn't give a damn about anything else.


Sometimes I think the only reason this LO's league is still going is likely to do the fact that many of the players are completely oblivious to how much they are being screwed and cheated by said LO.
 
No..the APA is the worst league in pool and nobody should play it....:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

That is pretty harsh but partly true. People need to take the APA for what it is, a time for friends to hang out maybe have a few drinks and play pool. When people start thinking it is fair and " everyone can play and anyone can win " then it becomes something else. There is no way for an honest team to win. I have went to that tournament in Vegas several times and its night and day different than normal league play. You can take a team from Mud Lick KY where there is 100 people total in the league and then take a team from a big district in New York for instance and the NY skill level 4 will give the KY skill level 7 the 6 and last 4. You have to keep your handicap down and the only way to do it is sandbag or else you go to Vegas for a week and go two and out of the tournament and have 6 days left to do nothing but blow your dough and go home busted and disgusted......:thumbup:
 
league play

You say your team has been to Vegas several times and you know how everything is. sounds like you might be doing some sandbagging yourself if you have made it that far as often as you say. You must be cheating if we believe what you and the other BASHERS keep whining about. The miserable of this world always want to drag those of us that are having a good time down to their pitiful level.
 
Last edited:
You say your team has been to Vegas several times and you know how everything is. sounds like you might be doing some sandbagging yourself if you have made it that far as often as you say. You must be cheating if we believe what you and the other BASHERS keep whining about. The little bashers are miserable with their stake in life and don't those that do enjoy something to enjoy themselves. Let's drag everyone down to our sad level

Im not sure what you mean by this but I havent played in that league in quit a while but when I did I sandbagged, cheated or whatever anyone wants to call it and so did more than half our team. I think when people hear the truth about something sometimes they take it the wrong way or as if someone is bashing something. I'm not saying the APA is a bad thing but people have the misconception that it is fair. When I see two teams playing each other where everyone knows everyone, I tell them why dont you just write a score down and save youself the $1 per game because you know how its going to end up anyway. Its funny to watch people shoot balls into the rail or miss the object ball entirely in an APA match then the same people run 6 or 7 balls and maybe even a whole rack in a VNEA or BCA game.
 
I could care less what you say, because seeing & hearing is believing. I don't appreciate being called a liar here. None of this happened over 8 years ago. I'm well aware of the computer system.

If anyone here is being dishonest, it appears you'd be the candidate. You conveniently left out the fact the LO's can override handicaps in that computer system. They have to have that ability, to be able to add new players that request to come in at a higher handicap. If not, then the APA would have no problem with new players slaughtering everyone on their way from an SL4 to an SL7. Players can also be lowered.

I think you misread what I posted. The LO cannot lower a player who is calculating at a higher level. I didn't say anything about raising a player because it isn't relevant to what you're claiming.

Of course the LO can raise skill levels, or lock a player into a level that's higher than what they're calculating. They can also release that lock, but the player won't go down if they are calculating at the higher level.

A player who is "a very strong 7, a mostly unbeatable 7" will not be calculating at anything other than 7, and cannot be lowered by the LO. Our software DOES NOT PERMIT the LO to do that.

LO has ultimate authority over the handicaps of his franchise because only he/she is in tune and in direct interaction with his/her players. The corporate APA doesn't care as they expect the LO to police his own leagues. As far as they are concerned, they will DQ teams that have handicaps go up in their tournaments.

And you know they don't care *how*? You sat down and had a face-to-face with them? Perhaps you know them personally? I do. I told you what they do with areas that have perceived sandbagging issues, and what they do when they discover a corrupt LO. Do you think I made that up? It certainly doesn't sound like a group that doesn't care.

Everything I have said in my posts is 100% accurate and true. SL4's being made into SL2's, SL7 being made into SL6 in exchange for coming back with a team etcetera. There are more of these situations. I just touched on a few. I actually have been holding back on talking about the really, really sleazy deals being done since I don't want to get too specific on a public forum. Even more egregious acts.

Did you contact the national office about any of this? What was their response?

Paksat talked about people who can make a call and have a handicap changed. This is FACT. I have seen this many, many times. Seen meaning witnessed it directly. Not hearsay, not pool room rumors. I was there.

You were where? You were in the LO's office when the skill level was changed? That's the only way you would know whether the phone call had ANYTHING to do with the skill level change.

I have players in my own area who believe they can get a skill level raised by making a phone call or filling out a form. Other players believe these people have that power too. Why? Because they made a phone call and the player was a skill level higher the following week. 99.9% of the time when that happens, it is the case of a player who played a great match and went up on his own. Someone on the other team complained and thought they got me to raise a player. But guess what? When they called and said the player should be higher, they were right, even though I didn't have to do a thing to make it so.

I don't know why you feel the need to come here and defend the APA and play the apologist. No one called you a sleazy LO. Unfortunately, many of your colleagues are complete sleazebags. You've stated your ideas on fairness and integrity at least a dozen times here and I and everyone else has no reason to doubt you. Kudos to you for running a fair and legit APA franchise. But you seem to be the exception, not the rule. I'm sure I can speak for others when I say this, it's unfortunate other LO's aren't more like you. It would be a better league, despite it's handicap system flaws and inane rules.

I appreciate the compliment, but I must disagree when you say I seem to be the exception. There are over 250 APA franchises, and how many of them do you think the posters in this forum are talking about? My guess is fewer than 20. I'm sure there is corruption in some areas, since I hear about it from the national office staff. But you got it backwards - the corrupt areas are the exception.

As for why I defend APA, it's because some of my existing and potential customers read these forums. I don't want them believing APA is nothing but a bunch of money-grubbing slimeballs who care nothing about the sport. Most APA operators do it because they love the sport and an APA franchise gives them the opportunity to be involved and grow the sport, while making an income at the same time. I gave up a 20-year career and a six-figure income to do this, not because it makes me more money (it doesn't), but because it gives me a bigger sense of accomplishment than anything I ever did in my previous career. After all these years, I still choke up a little when I see the 3 sink the 8-Ball to send her team to Vegas. I get a sense of pride when I watch a higher skill level player shoot and remember just a few years ago when that player's friends talked him into joining their team, even though he couldn't hold a cue. I feel that I've made a difference in the lives of the married couple who thank me for introducing them through the league. These are intangible things, they're priceless, and they're part of the package that comes with a business offering a half-decent living and a chance to build something. And I'll be damned if I'm gonna let a small group of internet posters rob me of even one existing or potential new member.

Yes, there are LO's that collaborate with teams and essentially facilitate and sanction rampant cheating and unfairness. Their goal is not fair competition, or a league of integrity, it's keeping warm bodies in the league as fair, unfair, sportsman or sandbagger is irrelevant - they all pay $8 a week all the same. He's got to put food on the table, so he really doesn't give a damn about anything else.

I don't think there's any dispute that these people exist. They exist in every for-profit league there is, and in some of the not-for-profit leagues, too. I just don't think there are as many of them as you would like people to believe, and I think you're way off mark in your statements about the national office not caring.
 
APA Operator...tap, tap, tap!:thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

As for why I defend APA, it's because some of my existing and potential customers read these forums. I don't want them believing APA is nothing but a bunch of money-grubbing slimeballs who care nothing about the sport. Most APA operators do it because they love the sport and an APA franchise gives them the opportunity to be involved and grow the sport, while making an income at the same time. I gave up a 20-year career and a six-figure income to do this, not because it makes me more money (it doesn't), but because it gives me a bigger sense of accomplishment than anything I ever did in my previous career. After all these years, I still choke up a little when I see the 3 sink the 8-Ball to send her team to Vegas. I get a sense of pride when I watch a higher skill level player shoot and remember just a few years ago when that player's friends talked him into joining their team, even though he couldn't hold a cue. I feel that I've made a difference in the lives of the married couple who thank me for introducing them through the league. These are intangible things, they're priceless, and they're part of the package that comes with a business offering a half-decent living and a chance to build something. And I'll be damned if I'm gonna let a small group of internet posters rob me of even one existing or potential new member.



I don't think there's any dispute that these people exist. They exist in every for-profit league there is, and in some of the not-for-profit leagues, too. I just don't think there are as many of them as you would like people to believe, and I think you're way off mark in your statements about the national office not caring.
 
First of all, you need winners. It doesn't matter what skill level they are, there are players that are winners and those who are losers. This has to do with attitude, competitive spirit and brain power. A good example is an SL3 that has been around a long time, knows a lot of moves in the game (smart), doesn't do anything silly or disastrous in their matches and who comes to win and never gives up. The reason they don't go up is because they don't possess the stroke and skills to run more balls and decrease innings.

You need players that can play under the pressure of going to Vegas or while at Vegas. Avoid recruiting chokers and people who crack. There are so many players look and play great during the season, but become completely worthless in regionals. We're talking SL5's that beat everyone down, and then in regionals have the ball pocketing skills of an SL3 or SL2 because of pressure. Confident people who are focused and hungry to win is what you want.

The two best paragraphs in that post. People bashing him for the sandbagging comments, but what I quoted is the best advice.

Too many times i've seen complaining about handicaps at a tournament when an un-bais bystander would say that one player just straight up choked. If you don't have winners and people that can play under pressure, then you'll never win a bid to Vegas.

Now if you want to talk about finishing in the top 3 at Vegas, re-read the sandbagging advise. Like it or not, thats the only way to finish at the top.
 
Our software DOES NOT PERMIT the LO to do that.


You can repeat this till you are blue in the face. As I said, the LO can and have lowered players.

Tell you the truth, I really don't care what you think I am or what you think about what I am saying.

I'm not going to argue what I have directly witnessed multiple times with you. It would be like me trying to argue with you about what you had for dinner last night. Facts are stubborn things.

I have no grudge against the APA. I have nothing to gain, nor lose from saying the things that I do. I am merely sharing my experiences. You on the other hand have a stake in this, and it is obvious by your insistent apologetics for corruption within the APA.


And you know they don't care *how*? You sat down and had a face-to-face with them?

You were where? You were in the LO's office when the skill level was changed? That's the only way you would know whether the phone call had ANYTHING to do with the skill level change.

When I say I witnessed it, that means I witnessed it.

Did you contact the national office about any of this? What was their response?

Why should I? No one put a gun to my head and made me play. Nor do I have some inherent right to play in the APA.

I voted with my wallet and left years ago. I sent my message to the national office in a language they understand best - by not giving them another dime of my money.

Also, why should I clean up someone else's dirt? APA should do their own housekeeping. I don't get paid to improve the APA. I was a customer. They should improve the APA for the players.


I appreciate the compliment, but I must disagree when you say I seem to be the exception. There are over 250 APA franchises, and how many of them do you think the posters in this forum are talking about? My guess is fewer than 20. I'm sure there is corruption in some areas, since I hear about it from the national office staff. But you got it backwards - the corrupt areas are the exception.

As for why I defend APA, it's because some of my existing and potential customers read these forums. I don't want them believing APA is nothing but a bunch of money-grubbing slimeballs who care nothing about the sport. Most APA operators do it because they love the sport and an APA franchise gives them the opportunity to be involved and grow the sport, while making an income at the same time. I gave up a 20-year career and a six-figure income to do this, not because it makes me more money (it doesn't), but because it gives me a bigger sense of accomplishment than anything I ever did in my previous career. After all these years, I still choke up a little when I see the 3 sink the 8-Ball to send her team to Vegas. I get a sense of pride when I watch a higher skill level player shoot and remember just a few years ago when that player's friends talked him into joining their team, even though he couldn't hold a cue. I feel that I've made a difference in the lives of the married couple who thank me for introducing them through the league. These are intangible things, they're priceless, and they're part of the package that comes with a business offering a half-decent living and a chance to build something. And I'll be damned if I'm gonna let a small group of internet posters rob me of even one existing or potential new member.


OK, fair enough.

You're passionate about your franchise and the work you put into it. As I said, it's a shame other LO's aren't like you.

I don't think you should be fixated with a "small group of internet posters" and instead should blame your scumbag colleagues who run heinous leagues.

We aren't a small group, and moreover - we didn't rob you of anything. If anyone robbed you of a potential customer, it was some slimeball cheating money grubbing LO's out there that tainted and alienated those customers.


I don't think there's any dispute that these people exist. They exist in every for-profit league there is, and in some of the not-for-profit leagues, too. I just don't think there are as many of them as you would like people to believe, and I think you're way off mark in your statements about the national office not caring.


Of course there is slime and scum in other leagues. But that doesn't excuse the APA from their corruption and crooked LO's. Saying "we'll, they do it too" or "that's how it is everywhere" doesn't excuse the scumbags in the APA. The issue was about the APA, not other leagues. If we want to talk about the filth in other leagues, we ought to start a new thread and air out what is going on in those other leagues. However, in this round - the APA is getting theirs.
 
I have no grudge against the APA. I have nothing to gain, nor lose from saying the things that I do. I am merely sharing my experiences. You on the other hand have a stake in this, and it is obvious by your insistent apologetics for corruption within the APA.

Uhhhh.... You have no grudge against the APA? You haven't played in it for years, and yet you continue to come onto these threads and insist that everything is coorupt in the APA, and that every part of the APA is rife with sandbaggers and cheaters, and that all these occurances are unofficially and knowingly sanctioned by the national HQ. You have stated these thoughts multiple times. Yet you have no axe to grind here? For a league you haven't played in how long?


When I say I witnessed it, that means I witnessed it.

OK, endulge me. How did you "witness" it? You actually saw, in person or on video, an LO lower a players handicap manually, despite the fact that an actual APA LO tells us the software will not permit it, and that he works in the committees that address these situations. Is that how you "witnessed" it, or did your account come from hearsay? 3rd hand, or further out? Where I come from, a "witness" sees the event occur. Anything less would be akin to sandbagging, meaning not entirely accurate... and sandbagging is bad, right?[/I]


Of course there is slime and scum in other leagues. But that doesn't excuse the APA from their corruption and crooked LO's. Saying "we'll, they do it too" or "that's how it is everywhere" doesn't excuse the scumbags in the APA. The issue was about the APA, not other leagues. If we want to talk about the filth in other leagues, we ought to start a new thread and air out what is going on in those other leagues. However, in this round - the APA is getting theirs.


My only dispute with this statement is that anytime sandbagging gets discussed, or cheating, or anything considered poor in pool, the APA gets automatically thrown into the discussion. Whether it was originally about the APA or not. As if that is the only place such poolplaying occurs. I truly believe that if everyone believes that sandbagging is so bad in the APA versus the other leagues, folks would find out quite quickly if the other leagues were even close to as large in participation they would also have the kind of cheating you see discussed here. It is simply a numbers game. The more people involved, the greater the percentage of cheaters, and people intent on getting around the system. Cheaters are going to cheat. People intent on finding an easier way will do just that. If the other leagues were as big, and there were more opportunity for people to get involved with them, the cheaters will find them. This doesn't excuse the cheaters in the APA, and if caught they should be dealt with. It's simply annoying to think that the only cheating going on in pool is in the APA. So yes, this will continue to be brought up every time the APA is said to be rife with cheaters. The big guys are always an easy target.




Bolo, I think you have some great things to add here to the discussions on the forum. You sure seem knowledgable about pool, and you have a way or writing that makes it easy to read, something not always the case on any forum anywhere. It just seems quite odd that you are quick to jump on the APA any chance you get, and dispute an actual LO in the workings of his own business. Someone who by definition has "witnessed" how the system actually works. APA is not for everyone. But is sure seems to bother the players who, by their own estimation, are far above it's level of play. Why do you care so much, and are so intent on tearing down what others enjoy? Adding new players to the game should be a good thing, right? Even if they don't play at your speed, and may never attain anything close. It has to be good to help support the rooms, the manufacturers, and the people who sell equpiment. Why do you need it to go away? Wouldn't it be easier to say that it is a beginner league, and many people who get "good" at this game eventually want a higher level of play? Isn't that a fair thing to say?

My .02
Have a good day.
 
Last edited:
I'm not going to argue what I have directly witnessed multiple times with you. It would be like me trying to argue with you about what you had for dinner last night. Facts are stubborn things.

I guess witnessing something makes it fact. I witnessed a man saw a woman in half and put her back together. When I was very young, I witnessed Santa Claus putting presents under our Christmas tree. Nobody is ever going to tell me that's not what really happened. I know it happened, I witnessed it.

When I say I witnessed it, that means I witnessed it.

Thanks for the explanation. I thought you meant something else.

I voted with my wallet and left years ago. I sent my message to the national office in a language they understand best - by not giving them another dime of my money.

Oh, ok. So by that logic, the fact that way more players vote with their wallets and play APA than any other league MUST indicate that APA has way fewer problems than any of the others. Glad we cleared that up.

Also, why should I clean up someone else's dirt? APA should do their own housekeeping. I don't get paid to improve the APA. I was a customer. They should improve the APA for the players.

You don't get paid to share your APA experiences in this forum, either, yet here you are. If you want to tell your stories, tell them to the people with the ability and authority to fix the problem. Then you will find out if they really do care or not, and your statements about them here will be more than just speculation.

Nobody asked you to fix any problems. I don't have to fix the problem I have with my car, either, but I do have to go to GM and tell them what the problem is if I want THEM to fix it. Then I get to decide whether I'm happy with the way they handled it. Oh, and I have to tell them it's MY car having the problem, or they may end up "fixing" some random vehicle, which does me no good.

I suppose I COULD just vote with my wallet and not buy another GM car ever again. I think that would be a bit naive, though. I'm the type that realizes there will eventually be a problem with any car I buy, and I give the manufacturer a chance to fix problems when they come up. I expect to have to do my part in identifying the problem to them. If I'm satisfied with the way they handle it, they get to keep my business.

Tell ya what - send me a private message with the name of the LO who is corrupt. If you don't know the name, give me the city and the year. I will do the rest and make the national office aware of this alleged rogue LO. Obviously, the more detail you can provide of actual wrongdoing, the easier it will be for them to investigate. But the identity of the LO is all I'm asking for. What have you got to lose?
 
Back
Top