How good does an APA team need to be?

[justadub]

Just a hunch, but perhaps APA isn't allowing jump cues as a measure of preventing the biggest goup of league players out there from jabbing away at tables, even if they aren't skilled enough to do so properly. If the League says "no jump cues" then those bar owners don't have to worry about hosting a bunch of people coming in with their bags full fo cool equipment, and having a bunch of beginners trying to jump all the time. I'm sure they aren't interested in resurfacing their tables any sooner than necessary. The level of play isn't really going to suffer because of a lack of jump cues.

I do agree that typically the better players would be the ones to be able to jump properly, and successfully. And that does make it even harder for the beginner to face up against them. This is coming from one of the lesser players. It wouldn't make me stop playing. And yes, I probably would try to learn to do it myself, if it had been used against me enough. But I'm quite satisfied with trying to learn how to properly do a good safety, and am amazed when the better players hook me with one. So I don't have a problem with the leack of the jump cue, for APA purposes.

 

[justadub]

Ok I had to re-read my post, and it turns out I could have come off a little arrogant. My bad, that's not what I was trying to do.Believe me for everyone I consider a banger, there are probobly 2 players who could consider me one, and rightfully so.

Doc.....officially off his high horse.

And I'm sorry for jumping all over you yesterday. I was sicker than the proverbial dog, and I let loose. Doesn't chage how I feel about some of the APA stuff here, I just usually try to be more diplomatic.

I too will now officially climb off my high horse. Have a great day! :thumbup:

 

[APA Operator]

Here is the rationality behind disallowing push-outs after the break in APA 9-Ball.

When two players of equal ability play, they can each be expected to break about the same number of times. Similarly, the frequency with which they sink a ball on the break is about the same. Therefore, the expectation is that each will have the first shot after the break about the same number of times.

However, when there's a large disparity in skill, the better player will break more often AND the weaker player will be less likely to sink a ball on the break, meaning the stronger player can expect the first shot after the break the vast majority of the time. Allowing the push-out gives this player a HUGE advantage.

 

[johanmaximus]

I just want to go play Las Vegas

After days reading all the posts with APA in them, and the LO's defending their careers, I am exhausted. :boring2:
Let me just say:

I enjoy going to Las Vegas to compete. I have been to every BCA National since 1990 (except '91 in Louisville). When I get there, I have to just beat my opponent head s up. No handicap, no BS.. Mono y mono. Team wise is the same. First team to win 13 games. I have been taught that to win an 8 ball or 9 ball game, you have to sink that ball. I am not a fan of "just make three more balls and we win".
I play BCA because EVERYBODY can go compete in Las Vegas if they choose. I don't have to commit to multiple sessions of expense, playing in multiple tournaments and beating everybody around just to have a chance of having the honor of getting to vegas. Then have to play the system to advance every round. UGH!

I play BCA league at home because every team gets paid cash. $1200 for 1st place in a 10 team division is nice. :thumbup: And we all have fun too. Don't miss the score keeping chore. Just a W or a L. And guess what, everybody has the honor of sharing the experience of meeting and playing people from all over Northern America, Spain, Portugal, etc. in Las Vegas. Nobody is excluded.
There are many levels to accomodate every players skill level in the singles, scotch doubles, teams & 9-Ball events.

Remember, in chess you have to take my King to beat me, not just get 8 pieces, and in 8-Ball, you have to sink the 8 ball to beat me, not just make 4 balls.

So, I will see all my friends, and new opponents alike again in May at the BCA 8-Ball Nationals. If you APA players would like to check it out, try it once. You have nothing to lose. And tell Mark Griffin I invited you, I am sure he would be honored to have have you!

 

[Koop]

Here is the rationality behind disallowing push-outs after the break in APA 9-Ball.

When two players of equal ability play, they can each be expected to break about the same number of times. Similarly, the frequency with which they sink a ball on the break is about the same. Therefore, the expectation is that each will have the first shot after the break about the same number of times.

However, when there's a large disparity in skill, the better player will break more often AND the weaker player will be less likely to sink a ball on the break, meaning the stronger player can expect the first shot after the break the vast majority of the time. Allowing the push-out gives this player a HUGE advantage.

I play APA 9 ball and I suppose I understand this, but...and it's a BIG but

it's crazy when you are playing a low handicap that is capable of running 3-4 balls at a time. If I am playing a 2 they could easily win just by my getting unlucky on the break. And before anyone says that 2's shouldn't be able to do that...yes, they do, regularly in my division.
This is the one rule I completely don't agree with. If there was a push rule it would benefit the better players in the beginning but eventually the lower players would catch on and use it to their advantage as well.
Certainly not on here to argue with you but this is the one rule in APA 9 ball that drives me insane.

Koop - likes the push rule

 

[PROG8R]

I play APA 9 ball and I suppose I understand this, but...and it's a BIG but

it's crazy when you are playing a low handicap that is capable of running 3-4 balls at a time. If I am playing a 2 they could easily win just by my getting unlucky on the break. And before anyone says that 2's shouldn't be able to do that...yes, they do, regularly in my division.
This is the one rule I completely don't agree with. If there was a push rule it would benefit the better players in the beginning but eventually the lower players would catch on and use it to their advantage as well.
Certainly not on here to argue with you but this is the one rule in APA 9 ball that drives me insane.

Koop - likes the push rule

I have to agree. I like the idea of a point race, but I HATE NO PUSH!!

 

[ronshirley]

I am sure this has been said before but I could not find it exactly in the previous posts.

In my opinion the APA 9 ball is much more like rotation pool than actual 9 ball, it's just played with 9 balls on the table and gives out 1 extra point for sinking the actual 9 ball.

Also, IMO, it's actually the only thing that makes it possible to adequately handicap a match between multiple skill levels on a league wide or national basis.

If it were played with regular 9 ball rules then the lesser players (like me...LOL) would continually lose and the game would not be popular as a league sport.

And of course the APA would be much less popular if it were not attractive to the lesser players and the LO's and national organization would not make as much money. :wink:

 

[mantis99]

Here are some thoughts on what makes a successful APA team as far as handicaps and skills go. This post is incomplete and only covers a few things since I don't feel like writing a book on the subject.


First of all, you need winners. It doesn't matter what skill level they are, there are players that are winners and those who are losers. This has to do with attitude, competitive spirit and brain power. A good example is an SL3 that has been around a long time, knows a lot of moves in the game (smart), doesn't do anything silly or disastrous in their matches and who comes to win and never gives up. The reason they don't go up is because they don't possess the stroke and skills to run more balls and decrease innings.


.

I am not sure I believe someone can be around for a long time playing league and not improve above an SL3 if they are not sandbagging. That level of play is simply not that hard to get above.

 

[dardusm]

The APA is a league designed for lower handicapped players. It's actually a good marketing strategy as it caters to the masses much more than other leagues. My point is that as a higher handicap player, you know what you are getting into when playing APA. If you don't like it, don't play in it. The single events, the US amateur, and master leagues give some other outlets to good players but ultimately it's about the the lower handicaps.

 

[markpatrick]

Theos Union Missouri Scotch Doubles 4/10 Noon 11 handicap tourney

The APA is a league designed for lower handicapped players. It's actually a good marketing strategy as it caters to the masses much more than other leagues. My point is that as a higher handicap player, you know what you are getting into when playing APA. If you don't like it, don't play in it. The single events, the US amateur, and master leagues give some other outlets to good players but ultimately it's about the the lower handicaps.

No, is my answer. Too many sandbaggers = disqualification.

But hey if you live near Union Missouri, Theos colonial inn located on Hwy 50 in Union Missouri is having an APA player scotch doubles event, handicap of 11. A 7 and A 4 or 6 and 5, many combinations.

$175 added. Check the tournament section for more info, but I am just trying to expose this event to as many players in the St Louis area as possible. 16 team limit. Call Cathy for more details.

I will be @ Millersburg for the $100 added race to 5 open 8 ball tourney.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

The greatest abuses occur at the local level within the various divisions and their respective league operator.

That is because there is an inherent conflict of interest that will never go away in the APA.

What should a LO do? Crack down by throwing players out or DQ'ing teams often? All that does is alienate these players and they'll quit. Like it or not, these sandbaggers and cheaters money is just as good as your money.

It's a game for the LO. If the LO is losing players and teams because of a few sandbaggers, it is to his financial advantage to stop the leak and deal with the cheaters. If his league is full of sandbaggers, and the vast majority of other players are oblivious to it, don't care, or know about it and complain but never LEAVE the league - there is no stimulus or incentive for the LO to act.

The only motivating factor and incentive in play here is MONEY.

In my opinion, most leagues are infested with sandbaggers and most players put up with it. Some complain but they aren't willing to quit the league over it.

Because of that, there's no collective "negotiating power" on behalf of the non-sandbaggers to force the LO to act on the problem due to financial incentive or punishment. Until he sees his leagues shrinking, he probably won't do a thing. And even then, may never realize it's due to letting sandbaggers run wild unless enough players make it known that's why they quit.

Still though, you may be the honest player/team and feel like your position and side should be upheld - but it matters not because even the worse scumbag cheating sandbagging team is paying that LO the same money you do each week.


I think that most people get way too carried away with a wrong perception of the APA and that's why this all happens. It should be very simple. The APA is nothing more than a business that generates income for the LO's who own franchises and the corporate APA. Pool playing, fairness etcetera is all secondary. The LO isn't going to change a thing, nor rock the boat so long as he/she is making money.


The ideal position for a LO is to have everyone playing, regardless of whether they are the scum of the earth or the most sportsmanship oriented team on Earth.


And one last thing, say team A says sandbagging scum of the Earth team B are cheaters and because of them team A is quitting.

Who cares?

The LO can either punish team B which will cause them to break up, or leave. Result? A lost team. Or let team A just go away. Result? A lost team. I've seen LO's are more inclined to let the complainers go away because they know the team will prefer to keep their night out and play pool than drop their hobby to stick up for fairness.


But I've also seen bribery. LO's that agree to lower the complaining team's handicaps in return for their stay in the league. They feel the playing field has been leveled (except for all the other teams that now have yet another sandbagger team in their division), the LO gets to keep another team in play which pads his bottom line.


I remember one situation very well. This one guy was a very strong SL7. Mostly unbeatable as an SL7. However, because the LO was allowing some sandbagging to go, this SL7 started losing here and there to the sandbaggers. So, he left the league. By doing so, it caused his team to break down.

It became known, since this SL7 has a big mouth, that he agreed he would come back to the league, and bring a whole new team with him, only if he could come back as an SL6 and be locked as one regardless of the results.

Well, you guessed it. He was back with a new team and as an SL6 basically steamrolled the entire room never going up. The LO is in full collaboration with blatant cheating within his own league. Now, these really egregious moves I feel backfired on him. Going that extreme may have caused more players to leave than what he gained. Which is an example of what I described earlier in the post. LO's in some instances purposely create sandbaggers.


I told you, in the APA there are tons of dirty dealings.


Here's another instance. A long time team was having handicap issues. Became tough to field 23. This is a steady team that has been playing for years and is a good customer for the LO so to speak. Well, this team has run out of prospects for bringing in new players to the league. Everyone on the team has expended all their friends, family and work people.

What does the LO do? Turns one of their SL4's into an SL2. Now, anyone who has looked up the super-not-so-secret APA handicap formula knows that no SL2 can ever have a winning percentage. Not this SL2. This is an SL2 that can run 6-7 balls and who wins at least 80% of the time. Yes, that outrageous.

Quite a few people in the league complained. But did they DO anything about it? Nope. They didn't VOTE with their WALLETS and leave. They continued on.


Which proves what I've said in this long winded post. The measure of everything in the APA is the dollar figure at the end. You may be fully disgusted or unhappy, if you're paying to stay - that tells the LO you're 100% pleased with the league.

 

[Richardson]

Bola, great post(page1). Way to stick your neck out there for everyone to whack at. Your post is just about as dead on as you can get.

I would add to some of the responses:

To WIN in LV you need baggers, 3 is actually enough imho. My best is a finish is 5/6th.

To agree with Bola the rest of your guys can be just solid players at their handicap.

One of the best skills to have in the APA which is mostly the captain is Throwing players. It is actually one of the only things i really miss about being a captain is the strategy in matching up. Everyone seems to think its about your best beating their best. Sadly thats why its so easy for some teams to get to LV year after year.


Also whoever was comparing APA to BCA and the like. You can't sandbag in a straight up league with no handicaps, lol.

 

[APA Operator]

The greatest abuses occur at the local level within the various divisions and their respective league operator.

That is because there is an inherent conflict of interest that will never go away in the APA.

What should a LO do? Crack down by throwing players out or DQ'ing teams often? All that does is alienate these players and they'll quit. Like it or not, these sandbaggers and cheaters money is just as good as your money.

It's a game for the LO. If the LO is losing players and teams because of a few sandbaggers, it is to his financial advantage to stop the leak and deal with the cheaters. If his league is full of sandbaggers, and the vast majority of other players are oblivious to it, don't care, or know about it and complain but never LEAVE the league - there is no stimulus or incentive for the LO to act.

The only motivating factor and incentive in play here is MONEY.

In my opinion, most leagues are infested with sandbaggers and most players put up with it. Some complain but they aren't willing to quit the league over it.

Because of that, there's no collective "negotiating power" on behalf of the non-sandbaggers to force the LO to act on the problem due to financial incentive or punishment. Until he sees his leagues shrinking, he probably won't do a thing. And even then, may never realize it's due to letting sandbaggers run wild unless enough players make it known that's why they quit.

Still though, you may be the honest player/team and feel like your position and side should be upheld - but it matters not because even the worse scumbag cheating sandbagging team is paying that LO the same money you do each week.


I think that most people get way too carried away with a wrong perception of the APA and that's why this all happens. It should be very simple. The APA is nothing more than a business that generates income for the LO's who own franchises and the corporate APA. Pool playing, fairness etcetera is all secondary. The LO isn't going to change a thing, nor rock the boat so long as he/she is making money.


The ideal position for a LO is to have everyone playing, regardless of whether they are the scum of the earth or the most sportsmanship oriented team on Earth.


And one last thing, say team A says sandbagging scum of the Earth team B are cheaters and because of them team A is quitting.

Who cares?

The LO can either punish team B which will cause them to break up, or leave. Result? A lost team. Or let team A just go away. Result? A lost team. I've seen LO's are more inclined to let the complainers go away because they know the team will prefer to keep their night out and play pool than drop their hobby to stick up for fairness.


But I've also seen bribery. LO's that agree to lower the complaining team's handicaps in return for their stay in the league. They feel the playing field has been leveled (except for all the other teams that now have yet another sandbagger team in their division), the LO gets to keep another team in play which pads his bottom line.


I remember one situation very well. This one guy was a very strong SL7. Mostly unbeatable as an SL7. However, because the LO was allowing some sandbagging to go, this SL7 started losing here and there to the sandbaggers. So, he left the league. By doing so, it caused his team to break down.

It became known, since this SL7 has a big mouth, that he agreed he would come back to the league, and bring a whole new team with him, only if he could come back as an SL6 and be locked as one regardless of the results.

Well, you guessed it. He was back with a new team and as an SL6 basically steamrolled the entire room never going up. The LO is in full collaboration with blatant cheating within his own league. Now, these really egregious moves I feel backfired on him. Going that extreme may have caused more players to leave than what he gained. Which is an example of what I described earlier in the post. LO's in some instances purposely create sandbaggers.


I told you, in the APA there are tons of dirty dealings.


Here's another instance. A long time team was having handicap issues. Became tough to field 23. This is a steady team that has been playing for years and is a good customer for the LO so to speak. Well, this team has run out of prospects for bringing in new players to the league. Everyone on the team has expended all their friends, family and work people.

What does the LO do? Turns one of their SL4's into an SL2. Now, anyone who has looked up the super-not-so-secret APA handicap formula knows that no SL2 can ever have a winning percentage. Not this SL2. This is an SL2 that can run 6-7 balls and who wins at least 80% of the time. Yes, that outrageous.

Quite a few people in the league complained. But did they DO anything about it? Nope. They didn't VOTE with their WALLETS and leave. They continued on.


Which proves what I've said in this long winded post. The measure of everything in the APA is the dollar figure at the end. You may be fully disgusted or unhappy, if you're paying to stay - that tells the LO you're 100% pleased with the league.

Wow, you're dating yourself Bola. You are relating stories (if they are even true) that cannot have happened in the past eight years.

Eight years ago (or seven, or nine, my memory isn't what it used to be), the APA provided league operators with new computer software. This software DOES NOT ALLOW a league operator to lower a player's skill level below what the computer calculates it to be. So, either you're lying, or relating local "urban legends" that are not true, or remembering things that happened nearly a decade ago.

What a league operator COULD do, though, is alter the data before it gets into the computer. Even then, there's no way to keep a 2 from going up on win percentage alone, so your 80% 2 is a myth. In addition, it would take at least a session or more of this score-altering to drop a solid 7 to a 6, and it would require changing wins into losses. You can't do that without people noticing, and you can't just wave a magic wand and make someone go down. If something like this were to happen, the league operator would receive a termination notice from APA the instant they found out about it. It's a big no-no.

APA Corporate is extremely serious about proper handicapping. When they identify an area with a problem, they work directly with the franchisee in that area to help fix it. Sometimes, all that is required is some education of the operator. Other times, some wholesale skill level changes have to be made. If the operator is found to be willingly helping players or teams cheat the system, they lose their franchise.

If a franchisee has a team disqualified in the national tournament, they face significant fines, loss of team slots for future national tournaments, and are required to attend additional training in St. Louis until they clean up their area.

Personally, if my choice was to lose a whole team (or more, it's happened before) of sandbaggers or lose one honest member, I'll say farewell to the sandbaggers. In fact, I'll kick them out even if all the honest teams want them to stay. I don't want cheaters in my league. They ruin it for everyone. By the same token, I will not kick a player or team out based solely on the accusation of another player or team. These accusations happen all the time, and are often unfounded. I may raise some skill levels and see what happens, but I won't kick them out until I have hard evidence. The last thing I want to do is punish an innocent team.

You have to be vigilant, and you have to stay on top of things to maintain the integrity of the handicap system. Fortunately, most APA operators are able to do exactly that. The ones who aren't able or willing to do what's necessary eventually find their way out of the business.

 

[smoooothstroke]

just a guess

I would tend to bellieve that for every LO that monkeys with handicaps in order to make more $$ ther are at least 2 who go strictly by the numbers.This of course wold not end sand-bagging or people complaining about real or percieved cheating.There is a formula for determining player ratings and the LO has a certain amount of leway to use his or her discrection and change a SL.

I would think that the national APA office also has a way of keeping each LO in check but I do not know that they do.

 

[cuesmith]

Wow, you're dating yourself Bola. You are relating stories (if they are even true) that cannot have happened in the past eight years.

Eight years ago (or seven, or nine, my memory isn't what it used to be), the APA provided league operators with new computer software. This software DOES NOT ALLOW a league operator to lower a player's skill level below what the computer calculates it to be. So, either you're lying, or relating local "urban legends" that are not true, or remembering things that happened nearly a decade ago.

What a league operator COULD do, though, is alter the data before it gets into the computer. Even then, there's no way to keep a 2 from going up on win percentage alone, so your 80% 2 is a myth. In addition, it would take at least a session or more of this score-altering to drop a solid 7 to a 6, and it would require changing wins into losses. You can't do that without people noticing, and you can't just wave a magic wand and make someone go down. If something like this were to happen, the league operator would receive a termination notice from APA the instant they found out about it. It's a big no-no.

APA Corporate is extremely serious about proper handicapping. When they identify an area with a problem, they work directly with the franchisee in that area to help fix it. Sometimes, all that is required is some education of the operator. Other times, some wholesale skill level changes have to be made. If the operator is found to be willingly helping players or teams cheat the system, they lose their franchise.

If a franchisee has a team disqualified in the national tournament, they face significant fines, loss of team slots for future national tournaments, and are required to attend additional training in St. Louis until they clean up their area.

Personally, if my choice was to lose a whole team (or more, it's happened before) of sandbaggers or lose one honest member, I'll say farewell to the sandbaggers. In fact, I'll kick them out even if all the honest teams want them to stay. I don't want cheaters in my league. They ruin it for everyone. By the same token, I will not kick a player or team out based solely on the accusation of another player or team. These accusations happen all the time, and are often unfounded. I may raise some skill levels and see what happens, but I won't kick them out until I have hard evidence. The last thing I want to do is punish an innocent team.

You have to be vigilant, and you have to stay on top of things to maintain the integrity of the handicap system. Fortunately, most APA operators are able to do exactly that. The ones who aren't able or willing to do what's necessary eventually find their way out of the business.

You do a great job of defending the APA. You even sound like you believe it. I just don't understand the concept of catering to the people who can't play and punishing those who improve. I know it's all about the money, at least at the national level where the rules are written to improve the bottom line rather than have the players improve their skill level.

Also someone said that the APA should feel that everyone is 100% satisfied with the program because they choose to play in it knowing what it is. That's BS! I'd venture to say that at least 75% of the people who understand the system, hate it, and only tolerate it because they feel it's "the only game in town" . Which is pretty much the case around here.
For myself, I don't really care anymore. As I said in an earlier post, I wouldn't in any bar league, even if they let _ME_ write the rules and paid me $100 a night to show up! I've spent too many years owning bars and poolrooms and even being a LO for another league. I no longer have the patience for dealing with drunks. My patience in just about every other catagory has improved, but I just can't stand listening to drunks run their mouths anymore and won't put myself in that situation again! The concept of league pool is such a great idea that I still have an interest in seeing others get out and play. I wish a good league with fairer rules would come into this area so the players would have a choice. The APA are playing the "FAT CATS" now. They have such a grip that they feel they are invulnerable. I know that's not true. When I brought the "Heart Of Ohio" pool league into Cincinnati back around 1991 the APA had a real foothold in this area. Within 2 years I had nearly as many teams playing in "Heart of Ohio" as the APA did in the same areas and all I had to do to sell it was tell the bar owners that it wasn't the APA and didn't have a 23 rule that penalized players for improving. At the time, I was also running a large pool room and night club with live entertainment 6 nights a week, a pool table service company and was making cues. I GAVE the league franchise to a friend who didn't like dealing with the drunks anymore than I do now, and he eventually just walked away from it.
The point I'm trying to make is that the APA "FATCATS" (and I'm not talking about the LO's really, they're scapegoats for the crew in St. Louis) are not as invulnerable as they may think. I know for 2 years "Heart of Ohio" was eating the APA's lunch. If someone dilligent would have kept going what I'd got started, they'd have been eating their dinner too soon! I have no animosity for the LO's who are trying to make a living, but the Barons in St. Louis need to have an attitude adjustment and start thinking about the sport instead of just their bottom line. Drop the 23 rule, work on some of the other problems instead of taking the stance that if peopel are playing in the league, they approve!

 

[APA Operator]

You do a great job of defending the APA. You even sound like you believe it. I just don't understand the concept of catering to the people who can't play and punishing those who improve. I know it's all about the money, at least at the national level where the rules are written to improve the bottom line rather than have the players improve their skill level.

Ok, ok, I get it. You've got an axe to grind and you're gonna grind it 'till it's nothing but a little nub, no matter how little you actually know about what goes on in St. Louis.

Why wouldn't I defend the APA? I've been a league operator for more than a third of my life. I deal with the folks in the national office on an almost daily basis. THEY call ME to get my opinion on things they are considering. Potential rule changes are discussed ad nauseum within the network of league operators before anything goes into the team manual. I am part of a committee that studies the effect of suggested tweaks to the handicapping system before anything gets implemented. Yes, studies, with actual data. One of the most recent changes we studied (and implemented) was a change that keeps players from going up in skill level TOO SOON. Why would we even consider such a change if it was all about the money? I'll tell you why. We do it because it's not about increasing skill levels as quickly as possible so we can generate more teams and more money, it's about getting the skill level numbers right so that everyone has a chance to be competitive.

Why can't you understand the concept of catering to beginners and novices? Do you think that treatment should be reserved for good players? There are plenty of leagues around that cater to the best players. Do you rail on them about "punishing" the people who aren't very good at pool? Do you think the beginners and novices don't deserve an environment where they can enjoy a night out with friends in a league where they can actually compete?

Speaking of "punishing", why do you (and others) feel that an increase in skill level is a punishment? There's nothing punitive about it. It's simply recognition that a player has improved. What a novel concept - a handicap system that assigns a value to a player's ability, and if that player improves the value changes. Wow, why didn't someone think of that before?

Or perhaps you're talking about the 23 rule? What a novel concept - a handicap system with a cap that prevents all the best players from being on the same team. Wow, why didn't someone think of that before?

Maybe you think 23 is too low, and it was designed that way as a marketing ploy to grow teams and get rich. Well maybe, just maybe, the
plan was to create a league that would attract new players by providing an environment where every team can compete. Maybe 23 was the number arrived at after years of experimentation with higher values failed to produce that competitive environment that attracted new players to the sport. Maybe the people who desired to attract new players by offering such an environment also realized that the new players would be beginners, so they structured their league to cater to beginners.

All leagues that operate at a national level are bigger today than they were 20 years ago. BCA, VNEA, TAP, all are bigger. Equipment manufacturers sell more equipment today than they did 20 years ago. There are more people in the sport, so everyone has grown. But when was the last time any of these people did ANYTHING to attract more people to the sport? These organizations have all ridden the coattails of the APA and have profited from it. Leagues like TAP and Heart of Ohio were created by people who played in or worked within APA. Their marketing strategy from day one was to sell themselves to APA members and host locations as an alternative to "big bad APA". They wouldn't even exist if they had to go out and sell the concept of a pool league to players and host locations. You said it yourself, your whole sales pitch was "It's not APA." Imagine that sales pitch in an area where APA had not already laid the ground work. These leagues owe their very existence to APA.

 

[paksat]

The greatest abuses occur at the local level within the various divisions and their respective league operator.

That is because there is an inherent conflict of interest that will never go away in the APA.

What should a LO do? Crack down by throwing players out or DQ'ing teams often? All that does is alienate these players and they'll quit. Like it or not, these sandbaggers and cheaters money is just as good as your money.

It's a game for the LO. If the LO is losing players and teams because of a few sandbaggers, it is to his financial advantage to stop the leak and deal with the cheaters. If his league is full of sandbaggers, and the vast majority of other players are oblivious to it, don't care, or know about it and complain but never LEAVE the league - there is no stimulus or incentive for the LO to act.

The only motivating factor and incentive in play here is MONEY.

In my opinion, most leagues are infested with sandbaggers and most players put up with it. Some complain but they aren't willing to quit the league over it.

Because of that, there's no collective "negotiating power" on behalf of the non-sandbaggers to force the LO to act on the problem due to financial incentive or punishment. Until he sees his leagues shrinking, he probably won't do a thing. And even then, may never realize it's due to letting sandbaggers run wild unless enough players make it known that's why they quit.

Still though, you may be the honest player/team and feel like your position and side should be upheld - but it matters not because even the worse scumbag cheating sandbagging team is paying that LO the same money you do each week.


I think that most people get way too carried away with a wrong perception of the APA and that's why this all happens. It should be very simple. The APA is nothing more than a business that generates income for the LO's who own franchises and the corporate APA. Pool playing, fairness etcetera is all secondary. The LO isn't going to change a thing, nor rock the boat so long as he/she is making money.


The ideal position for a LO is to have everyone playing, regardless of whether they are the scum of the earth or the most sportsmanship oriented team on Earth.


And one last thing, say team A says sandbagging scum of the Earth team B are cheaters and because of them team A is quitting.

Who cares?

The LO can either punish team B which will cause them to break up, or leave. Result? A lost team. Or let team A just go away. Result? A lost team. I've seen LO's are more inclined to let the complainers go away because they know the team will prefer to keep their night out and play pool than drop their hobby to stick up for fairness.


But I've also seen bribery. LO's that agree to lower the complaining team's handicaps in return for their stay in the league. They feel the playing field has been leveled (except for all the other teams that now have yet another sandbagger team in their division), the LO gets to keep another team in play which pads his bottom line.


I remember one situation very well. This one guy was a very strong SL7. Mostly unbeatable as an SL7. However, because the LO was allowing some sandbagging to go, this SL7 started losing here and there to the sandbaggers. So, he left the league. By doing so, it caused his team to break down.

It became known, since this SL7 has a big mouth, that he agreed he would come back to the league, and bring a whole new team with him, only if he could come back as an SL6 and be locked as one regardless of the results.

Well, you guessed it. He was back with a new team and as an SL6 basically steamrolled the entire room never going up. The LO is in full collaboration with blatant cheating within his own league. Now, these really egregious moves I feel backfired on him. Going that extreme may have caused more players to leave than what he gained. Which is an example of what I described earlier in the post. LO's in some instances purposely create sandbaggers.


I told you, in the APA there are tons of dirty dealings.


Here's another instance. A long time team was having handicap issues. Became tough to field 23. This is a steady team that has been playing for years and is a good customer for the LO so to speak. Well, this team has run out of prospects for bringing in new players to the league. Everyone on the team has expended all their friends, family and work people.

What does the LO do? Turns one of their SL4's into an SL2. Now, anyone who has looked up the super-not-so-secret APA handicap formula knows that no SL2 can ever have a winning percentage. Not this SL2. This is an SL2 that can run 6-7 balls and who wins at least 80% of the time. Yes, that outrageous.

Quite a few people in the league complained. But did they DO anything about it? Nope. They didn't VOTE with their WALLETS and leave. They continued on.


Which proves what I've said in this long winded post. The measure of everything in the APA is the dollar figure at the end. You may be fully disgusted or unhappy, if you're paying to stay - that tells the LO you're 100% pleased with the league.

There's people in my region that can make one phone call and have a skill level go up or down on any player. That doesn't sound like some computer program if you ask me. That sounds like the LO doing whatever the hell she feels like doing.

I witnessed a 5 beat the dog sh*t out of a 9 ( two other teams ) while I was playing a match simultaneously. The captain of the team with the 9 made a phone call that night and within 2 days that 5 became a 6.

That is just the MOST RECENT thing that happened. It is most certainly NOT the only thing that I have seen. I've also witnessed a 4 get dropped down TWO skill levels to a 2 in just one week...APA people can try and defend it but like it or not, your sh*t is corrupted immensely in some divisions.

I played in another region of the APA with a different LO. I went 17-1 and with mostly 15-5 and 16-4 splits ( god I love those 9 foot tables ) against mostly 5's and 6's.

I remained a 5 the ENTIRE season.

I GUARANTEE 4 games into that streak in the region I live in that I would have gone up to a 6...

oh btw, i'm a 6

 

[APA Operator]

There's people in my region that can make one phone call and have a skill level go up or down on any player. That doesn't sound like some computer program if you ask me. That sounds like the LO doing whatever the hell she feels like doing.

I witnessed a 5 beat the dog sh*t out of a 9 ( two other teams ) while I was playing a match simultaneously. The captain of the team with the 9 made a phone call that night and within 2 days that 5 became a 6.

Wow, imagine that. A 5 played a great match and went up. If you knew nothing about the alleged phone call, would you have been surprised to see the player go up after that match?

That is just the MOST RECENT thing that happened. It is most certainly NOT the only thing that I have seen. I've also witnessed a 4 get dropped down TWO skill levels to a 2 in just one week...APA people can try and defend it but like it or not, your sh*t is corrupted immensely in some divisions.

Here's the most likely scenario, and I can tell you this without knowing who this player is or where they played. You watched a player play his/her second ever match in the APA. Anyone who has played APA for a while knows it is not unusual for a new player to go up or down multiple levels in one week. There just isn't enough data in the system yet to generate a handicap that is stable.

I played in another region of the APA with a different LO. I went 17-1 and with mostly 15-5 and 16-4 splits ( god I love those 9 foot tables ) against mostly 5's and 6's.

I remained a 5 the ENTIRE season.

I GUARANTEE 4 games into that streak in the region I live in that I would have gone up to a 6...

oh btw, i'm a 6

Were you cheating (sandbagging) when you went 17-1? Which area do you have an issue with, the one where you live now or the one where you didn't go up? It sounds a little bit like you're complaining about both. If that's true, it tells me something about you.

You probably would have gone up in my area too, but it might have taken a little longer than four matches, and I can't GUARANTEE it. So how can you?

I'm not saying there aren't areas where I'd like to see the LO be a little more proactive with skill level adjustments. I'm also not saying there aren't still some areas where some corruption exists. All I'm saying is one bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch, so don't generalize. The vast majority of us are doing our best to get the numbers right. None of us is exactly right every time, but it doesn't mean we're corrupt. And when the national office discovers corruption, they deal with it, usually by terminating the franchisee.

I'm also saying you've given three situations here, in each of which the outcome may have been (and probably was) perfectly legitimate, and you've painted them all as if the LO in each case is crooked.

Tell you what - you come up with a system that (1) is accurate 100% of the time, (2) can be applied anywhere with identical or nearly identical results, (3) gives everyone, even beginners, a chance to be competitive, (4) is impossible to cheat, and (5) can't be skewed by a bad LO. Post that system here. If I agree that your system meets all of the criteria, I'll sell my APA franchise immediately. Our system doesn't meet that criteria (heck, we only meet two of the five), but I believe we're set up to come as close as anyone can.

 

[paksat]

"Wow, imagine that. A 5 played a great match and went up. If you knew nothing about the alleged phone call, would you have been surprised to see the player go up after that match?"

Considering that he plays on a team that is considered "sandbaggers" and is often believed to be in cahoots with the LO and also considering he should have been a 6 ages ago ( also consider that he's a 7 in 8 ball ).. I can't say I would be surprised by anything tbh with you. That 9 and him have been going at with each other mentally before all this. He beat that 9 in 6 innings I believe.. that's no 5 idc what you say.


"Here's the most likely scenario, and I can tell you this without knowing who this player is or where they played. You watched a player play his/her second ever match in the APA. Anyone who has played APA for a while knows it is not unusual for a new player to go up or down multiple levels in one week. There just isn't enough data in the system yet to generate a handicap that is stable."

He had been playing in the league for over 2 years.


"Were you cheating (sandbagging) when you went 17-1? Which area do you have an issue with, the one where you live now or the one where you didn't go up? It sounds a little bit like you're complaining about both. If that's true, it tells me something about you."

No I wanted to be a 6 over there. I kept waiting for it knowing it was going to happen and it never did. Same goes for another player on my team. Except he didn't lose one match all season long and he's a 3.

You probably would have gone up in my area too, but it might have taken a little longer than four matches, and I can't GUARANTEE it. So how can you?

I'm not saying there aren't areas where I'd like to see the LO be a little more proactive with skill level adjustments. I'm also not saying there aren't still some areas where some corruption exists. All I'm saying is one bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch, so don't generalize. The vast majority of us are doing our best to get the numbers right. None of us is exactly right every time, but it doesn't mean we're corrupt. And when the national office discovers corruption, they deal with it, usually by terminating the franchisee.

I'm also saying you've given three situations here, in each of which the outcome may have been (and probably was) perfectly legitimate, and you've painted them all as if the LO in each case is crooked.

Tell you what - you come up with a system that (1) is accurate 100% of the time, (2) can be applied anywhere with identical or nearly identical results, (3) gives everyone, even beginners, a chance to be competitive, (4) is impossible to cheat, and (5) can't be skewed by a bad LO. Post that system here. If I agree that your system meets all of the criteria, I'll sell my APA franchise immediately. Our system doesn't meet that criteria (heck, we only meet two of the five), but I believe we're set up to come as close as anyone can."

I like the scoring system. I just don't agree with the 23 rule as has been stated over and over and over by many posters. It just seems to bent on hell to split teams up and allow the LO's to say "we don't want a team dominating it gives the newer players a chance" while the more experienced players believe that it's all about breaking teams up so more people will be introduced to the league ( not a bad thing ) and thus more money in the pockets of the LO ( not a bad thing either unless it's done in the way I believe it's potentially done. ).

 

[theycallmerock]

Ive played in 3 different APA leagues across the country. In one of them, the division reps kept a very watchful eye out on their respective divisions going so far as to travel around sometimes and stop by the different bars where matches were being played to get a peek at everyone shooting and would call the LO in the event that he felt that a handicap were out of line. In the division I am currently in, I lost to a 3 last night 2-1 in 4 innings that included a 1 inning game with a safe and a break and run from the 3 (I would imagine that 3 wont be a 3 very long).

The 23 rule is the only way that players such as someone's wife can have an outlet to compete while learning the game. Where I play, bars sponsor team tournaments (using APA rules and handicaps) but raise the max handicap to 25. I have never seen a 2 in these tournaments and 3s are few and far between. Not sure what the answer is but it isnt scratching a max handicap altogether.