How good was Toby Sweet and does anyone have stories.

[Fatboy]

I agree with all of that. im glad that the rules have since changed. i’d wager toby would agree as well.

rules are rules and he broke one and paid for it. zero argument.

all im saying is it’s a shit rule and toby got the short end of the stick.

Why is/was the rule there? So you cant have your cake and eat it too by missing the 1 and then claiming “oh, i was pushing.” i dont think that was tobys intention and therefor should not have been punished.

Wade was the wiser player, knowing the rules and taking advantage of them and it won him the set.

i think we all would have liked to have seen how that match would have played out had wade taken/passed the shot like normal, instead of getting bih on a “good hit” and running out the set.

I think Toby just was asleep at the wheel and forgot to say anything. We’ll never know.

Have a great weekend
Fatboy

 

[Fatboy]

True, Toby didn’t yell and scream about it, but from his facial expression/mannerisms it seemed like he wasn’t too happy with the call.

Oh well, it’s 26 years ago now. Water under the bridge.

He wasn’t happy at all, that’s clear. I wouldn’t be either. I’ve made mistakes like that, it happens. Metal lapse, like taking your eye off a ball and missing a throw in. Shit happens. It’s not easy that’s certain.

Here’s to a better future
Fatboy

 

[maha]

soyale, its a good rule. such as suppose when he shot it did go close and hit the ball but didnt get a rail. so then is it a push out and no penalty or a foul.

thats why if you shot at all in the direction of the ball it must be called.

and when they play call 8, its the same. as how do you determine how close to the pocket it becomes obvious. you have to have clear rules that arent open to angle shooting from either side.

thanks for putting your ideas into the thread. its makes us all consider both sides and think.

 

[tomatoshooter]

soyale, its a good rule. such as suppose when he shot it did go close and hit the ball but didnt get a rail. so then is it a push out and no penalty or a foul.

thats why if you shot at all in the direction of the ball it must be called.

and when they play call 8, its the same. as how do you determine how close to the pocket it becomes obvious. you have to have clear rules that arent open to angle shooting from either side.

thanks for putting your ideas into the thread. its makes us all consider both sides and think.

Your example about hitting the ball and not getting a rail is why calling pushes is necessary. Toby's shot, to me, is on the edge. Wade almost certainly noticed there was no shot and Toby is too good of a player to miss a kick by that distance, but it's not so obvious that calling "push" is unnecessary.

When playing 8 ball, if you aren't shooting at the pocket that's clearly closest to a line drawn through the cue ball and object ball then you need to call the shot and always call the 8. Banks and kicks are never obvious. It's usually obvious by how the ball is shot which pocket is intended, and if someone misses a pocket by 4 feet instead of 4 inches, well, I should be able to beat them. The difference between a push and poorly executed safety is typically much more subtle.

 

[phreaticus]

Your example about hitting the ball and not getting a rail is why calling pushes is necessary. Toby's shot, to me, is on the edge. Wade almost certainly noticed there was no shot and Toby is too good of a player to miss a kick by that distance, but it's not so obvious that calling "push" is unnecessary.

When playing 8 ball, if you aren't shooting at the pocket that's clearly closest to a line drawn through the cue ball and object ball then you need to call the shot and always call the 8. Banks and kicks are never obvious. It's usually obvious by how the ball is shot which pocket is intended, and if someone misses a pocket by 4 feet instead of 4 inches, well, I should be able to beat them. The difference between a push and poorly executed safety is typically much more subtle.

I mentioned this earlier, but its a subtle context thing that I think is relevant, since this is being picked apart so much. Earlier in the match, Toby played safe on the 1b after Wade broke dry, when a pushout would have been the more common choice. I think it happened 1-2 times. There is never a reason to not properly call a push, even when it seems obvious, which this one wasn’t.

There has been the subtle implication that Wade was being too much of a nit or somehow slightly underhanded about making the call. If anything, to me not calling a push in a major match - leaves too much for interpretation and is the more unprofessional behavior.

The players, refs & commentators all handled it well, its just us bored nutjobs 30 years later who are over analyzing


My $0.02

 

[tomatoshooter]

There has been the subtle implication that Wade was being too much of a nit or somehow slightly underhanded about making the call. If anything, to me not calling a push in a major match - leaves too much for interpretation and is the more unprofessional behavior.

Yeah, it's a shame to see a great match decided by something other than the shots made but that's why I point at every pocket I'm shooting at.

 

[soyale]

soyale, its a good rule. such as suppose when he shot it did go close and hit the ball but didnt get a rail. so then is it a push out and no penalty or a foul.

thats why if you shot at all in the direction of the ball it must be called.

and when they play call 8, its the same. as how do you determine how close to the pocket it becomes obvious. you have to have clear rules that arent open to angle shooting from either side.

thanks for putting your ideas into the thread. its makes us all consider both sides and think.

im saying that having the rule be that you ONLY have to call a pushout when going toward the 1 is the problem.

I fully understand the reasoning and also explained that i believe situations like this are why the rule is now just call your push always. If there wasnt the ambiguity during that tourney i believe toby would have audibly called his pushout and we would have had a real match on our hands.

There has been the subtle implication that Wade was being too much of a nit or somehow slightly underhanded about making the call. If anything, to me not calling a push in a major match - leaves too much for interpretation and is the more unprofessional behavior.

I agree, it was a mistake not to call push, but the underlying mistake is the rule. i dont think wade was underhanded in the slightest, rather he was very astute by taking advantage of the situation he was given… but lets not act like thats not what happened. in no universe was that an attempt at the 1, and so therefor it felt like taking advantage of a rule—a rule that was not intended to give you an advantage in that situation. It would have been gentlemanly of wade to continue play but that doesnt mean it was ungentlemanly of him to call a foul. Im done talking about this now, im not trying to besmirch anybody, it was just one of those moments that makes you scratch your head and think “that wasnt quite right.”

Yeah, it's a shame to see a great match decided by something other than the shots made but that's why I point at every pocket I'm shooting at.

A much more succinct way of putting it. Sorry for my lack of brevity everyone, and sorry to have derailed this thread. I hope some more stories come along and get us back on track

 

[middleofnowhere]

Supposing Wade had not called it. And suppose Toby gets out and wins the match. I think the conversation would be Wade was an idiot for not calling the foul when it was in fact the foul.

 

[tomatoshooter]

Supposing Wade had not called it. And suppose Toby gets out and wins the match. I think the conversation would be Wade was an idiot for not calling the foul when it was in fact the foul.

There does seem to be a slight pro-Toby bias in this thread.

 

[Fatboy]

Yeah, it's a shame to see a great match decided by something other than the shots made but that's why I point at every pocket I'm shooting at.

Like I said, managing your game is as important as playing your game. You’ll be just fine, learning that early on.

 

[Fatboy]

There does seem to be a slight pro-Toby bias in this thread.

People here who really know pool, know Toby screwed up. There’s no debate here about that among experienced players.

Best,
Fatboy

 

[Nostroke]

would you take ball in hand off an opponent for this ? Lets say he rolls the ball to the end rail instead, even MORE clearly a push.

im just curious. My very first remark was that wade was within his rights to call a foul.

it just feels a bit like walter telling smokey hes over the line.

Or, alternatively, proclaiming that you “won” a game of 8ball because your opponent didnt verbally call the pocket that the 8 was hanging in. Like… yeah, you’re right, you “won”. Congratulations?

ALL that stuff is horseshit- Efren lost a game in the Tournament of Champions' for not calling the 9 Ball and would have lost another (race to 5) except the fans called out- "Call the 9 Efren"! Efren has been playing 9 Ball for 40 years without calling the 9 and now you are going to deprive him of cash for failing a memory test? The rule is there to prevent lucking in a ball and in that case or in any reffed match the Ref should declare "the ball was made in the intended pocket- Game MR Reyes"! Not to mention, pros luck in the 9 Ball one out of 100 times and there is no need for any such rule

 

[measureman]

When I played bar league the rule was to call every pocket,but it was agreed that if it was obvious there was no need to do it.
But I always pointed to the pocket when it came to the 8 ball to eliminate the A holes from calling a foul.

 

[westcoast]

Crane must have a monster playing bar table 8 ball with that huge break

 

[WardS]

Many years ago I saw Toby at the Hawks Nest pool room in the Squirrel Hill section of Pittsburgh. He was playing 9-ball for 300 a game. That was BIG $ in that day and I swear it was like he had whitey on a string. Watched him a few other times and I tell you, Toby was a fearless money player. And, always a class act.

The Hawks Nest brings memories to me in 1967 I got out of the army and went to visit my brother in Pittsburgh and I went in to the Hawks Nest, the guy who owned the place let me play because I was from Dallas and he was a friend of Utley Pucket. I think if my memory is correct his name was Bernie Schwartz,