How Hard Do You Hit the Cue Ball

[catscradle]

Last I heard, Sammy got out of the witness protection program and went back to his old ways. He was caught as one of the main players of a major ring for the production and distribution of ecstasy and possibly some other things. Back to the clink.

I would love to have a copy of that Cicero tape. Do you know if Accu-Stats still has it available?

Yes they do or at least have it listed. Go to Accu-stats and do a search for Cicero.

 

[Jon]

Jon- Great post! But, where's the smart*ss comments like usual! haha!! Just kidding, again-Dynamite post!
I learned exactly what you're talking about from Tim White at the Billiard Sanctuary. www.billiardsanctuary.com

Zim

Well, i've known everything in that post for quite some time now . And it didn't cost ME anything lol . Would you like me to edit the post up there, and add some smart@$$ed remarks??? I might not be able to resist .

And yes, it was a good post, wasn't it .

Thanks,

Jon

 

[Jon]

Well john, The only thing that speed effects is where the cueball sits on the table after you stroke it. It doesn't matter how fast the object ball hits that pocket. When you play position with a cueball you can leave some room for error. That's why I say you need 3 speeds of a stroke. If you try and drill the ball an exact pressure and speed then you're going to complicate your mind and mess the entire situation up and more importantly your stroke. You're stroke has to be consistant every single time. No matter if you're rolling a ball or smashing it into the object ball. And if you start worrying about too many variables like exact speed and position then you'll find yourself allowing unseen variables to affect your game. And you won't know what's going wrong. You'll find yourself doing these small little quirks to get the speed right in mid swing and these little hesitations that will make you miss the object ball and sometimes more importantly make you fall way out of position. Using 3 speeds in your stroke is the best option i've found, especially if your stroke isn't rock solid in all situations and gives you the result you expect every time. Trying to master too many variables at a time will just complicate your game and you'll be playing for endless years trying to become a better player beacause of all the confusion. You need a base to grow off of, and that base is your stroke. It has to be the same every single time, no matter what you're doing on the slate.

Ok, first off, if you look at my handle, my name is spelled JON, there is no H, my full first name is Jonathan, hence the short name Jon. Why can't anybody get that right?

Ok, second. If you read a post of mine in another thread, you will find the answer to your post (statements). I'll summarize for you.

Figuring and knowing exact speeds happens BEFORE you get down on the ball. All "complications" are settled before you are down. How can the affect your stroke? They don't affect mine. Seriously, if you aim the ball, compute your speed/English (if any English is needed, I might add) for shapes, then get your "real" aim point, then get down on the ball, the only thing you have to worry about, is stroking the ball. How can that cloud your mind? When I’m down on the ball, my mind is a total blank, isn't yours?

Thanks,

Jon

 

[drivermaker]

When I’m down on the ball, my mind is a total blank, isn't yours?
Jon

Speak for yourself Jon (no H), mine is that way 99% of the time.

 

[Jon]

Speak for yourself Jon (no H), mine is that way 99% of the time.

That would explain a lot driver... .

At least you are upfront about it... .

If you had a Predator shaft, that would either take up that last 1%, or unblank the other 99%. .

From what i am reading about the Predator shaft, it seems to "open the eyes" of the users, they had no idea how bad they were judging squirt before. Thoses shafts are like Cliff Notes (sp?, i never read 'em), not that people using them are cheating, just lazy...

Thanks,

Jon

 

[crawdaddio]

I think the best game to learn how to judge speed and cueball control has to be one pocket. If you play someone who is good regularly, and pay attention to what you're doing, you WILL learn how to control the rock.

Here's a good draw stroke\speed control drill. (I'm sure many of you have seen it before, but it's a good one)

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/

START(
%A[2B5%BC0B8%CB4\5%Dc4V9%E[2]0%FB4\7%GB7\3%H\4B2%IB7]0%JC2B9
%KB7\1%LB8\1%MB3\1%ND1\2%OB6B6%Pg9V9%eB3b6%_r5W1%`c8V8%ag3V9
%bq8W9%cB9W3%db5V8
)END

Try to draw the cb off the ob back to the end rail BEFORE the ob banks back to the end rail. Move the ob further down the table as you succeed. this is all stroke and speed control.

~DC

 

[JoeyInCali]

That would explain a lot driver... .

At least you are upfront about it... .

If you had a Predator shaft, that would either take up that last 1%, or unblank the other 99%. .

From what i am reading about the Predator shaft, it seems to "open the eyes" of the users, they had no idea how bad they were judging squirt before. Thoses shafts are like Cliff Notes (sp?, i never read 'em), not that people using them are cheating, just lazy...

Thanks,

Jon

Well, some would argue a shaft with a really soft ferrule and hollowed end impede their speed control b/c that type of shaft has less feedback.
But, some through muscle memory can judge the speed of the ball by the speed of their stroke.
Some, though, like that reasonance from the tip/shaft upon striking the ball.
Scott Lee teaches speed control. Simply putting it, soft shot= one rail lag, medium speed=2 rail lag. On medium speed, a hit just little below the center of the cb is a stop shot on a ball 4 diamonds away.

 

[Jon]

Well, some would argue a shaft with a really soft ferrule and hollowed end impede their speed control b/c that type of shaft has less feedback.
But, some through muscle memory can judge the speed of the ball by the speed of their stroke.
Some, though, like that reasonance from the tip/shaft upon striking the ball.
Scott Lee teaches speed control. Simply putting it, soft shot= one rail lag, medium speed=2 rail lag. On medium speed, a hit just little below the center of the cb is a stop shot on a ball 4 diamonds away.

I still prefer to use more draw, and a softer stroke to stop the ball. Also, sometimes, "perfect" position is where the ball (you want to "stop off of") is, not one ball behind it. Replacing that ball with the CB, is harder for me with a harder stroke. I will also add, the softer stroke requires better timing. If you use a striped ball, and do the stop shot with a softer stroke, you will notice that (if it stops dead) as soon as the CB (striped ball in this case) hits the OB, the draw has "just stopped", if you can understand that, it would be easier to explain what i mean with a video than in words lol.

At least i know Zim has it right .

Thanks,

Jon

 

[Williebetmore]

Could Mosconi beat him at 9 ball? Not on your life.

WW,
A pretty strong statement. Mosconi didn't like 9-ball (as a "gambler's game"), but an aquaintance of my father worked at a famous pool hall in Kansas City (where Mosconi lived and played for a while) - he reports that Mosconi broke and ran 9 straight racks the first time he played the game (not with ball in hand, but during a gambling match). I think Mosconi recounts the episode in his autobiography.

Luther Lassiter is reported to have said that Mosconi would have been the best 9-ball player ever if he had played it competitively. Mosconi (on a lark), entered a world championship 3-cushion billiards tournament and finished 2nd to the great Willie Hoppe (of interest Irving Crane and Joe Procita both finished in the top 5 also). Willie was good.

When Dixon and Willie match up in heaven, my money is on Willie (hopefully he won't dump on me).

 

[LastTwo]

The reason why the pros make alot more balls than amatuers is not because of the speed of the shot, (while this may be a small factor), but because they shoot alot straighter. There is a reason why 9-ball bangers slam the cueball around to get shape, while pros rarely hit a ball hard. When you've got a crooked stroke, the harder it is to apply spin to the cueball with control. To make up for it, people slam the shot to go 3 rails around the table, when a decent player could do the same shot, go the same distance at 1/3 the speed. Professional players hit the cueball so sweet it's unbelievable sometimes. Being lined up near-perfectly, and having a straight stroke is what lets pros hit shots softer, but get more reaction out of the cueball than an amatuer could hitting the shot 4 times as hard. When you play good pool, less=more.

 

[Rude Dog]

Has anyone thought of this? When you go too long for position, you may have hit the wrong side of the pocket. Same thing with too short on position. If you over-cut a ball, the CB will go farther than expected. I not only play to make the ball, but make it to the correct side of the pocket. Hence, cheating the pocket. Also, when I need to follow a ball to get position and the OB is near a rail with a slight angle, I use bottom english with a side spin. The reason for this is because I can see my target point on the CB better and the spin helps the OB into the pocket. Also, no uncontrolled squirt. It takes practice but will definitely help anyone's game. Just hit the CB with the right speed to turn over before impact with the OB, which then creates follow english. I use spin on probably 70% of all shots and I can create my own angles by doing this, along with cheating the pockets. If this helps anyone with their game, let me know, I'll be glad to explain more. Peace!

 

[Jimmy M.]

Whatever. I like to jack up and spank whitey around the table as often as possible - especially on a table with real tight pockets. You go on with your soft, draw, spin follow shot. I'll stick to the power game, baby! Pfft.


DISCLAIMER: Actual results may vary.

Has anyone thought of this? When you go too long for position, you may have hit the wrong side of the pocket. Same thing with too short on position. If you over-cut a ball, the CB will go farther than expected. I not only play to make the ball, but make it to the correct side of the pocket. Hence, cheating the pocket. Also, when I need to follow a ball to get position and the OB is near a rail with a slight angle, I use bottom english with a side spin. The reason for this is because I can see my target point on the CB better and the spin helps the OB into the pocket. Also, no uncontrolled squirt. It takes practice but will definitely help anyone's game. Just hit the CB with the right speed to turn over before impact with the OB, which then creates follow english. I use spin on probably 70% of all shots and I can create my own angles by doing this, along with cheating the pockets. If this helps anyone with their game, let me know, I'll be glad to explain more. Peace!

 

[Rude Dog]

Whatever. I like to jack up and spank whitey around the table as often as possible - especially on a table with real tight pockets. You go on with your soft, draw, spin follow shot. I'll stick to the power game, baby! Pfft.


DISCLAIMER: Actual results may vary.

Uh, Jimmy, I was talking about pool, not your sex life. LOL

 

[Wally in Cincy]

Ok, first off, if you look at my handle, my name is spelled JON, there is no H, my full first name is Jonathan, hence the short name Jon. Why can't anybody get that right?

Should we call you Jon or JoN ?

Wally <~~ wants to get it right

 

[Jimmy M.]

Uh, Jimmy, I was talking about pool, not your sex life. LOL

Yeah, well, just remember; I'm the only one allowed to call her "whitey"!

 

[Williebetmore]

I did have the opportunity to watch Cole Dixon play years ago, and it seemed like he shot every ball in with authority, using mostly top, center, and bottom. As a matter of fact, I think he shot harder than any pro I have seen, for what is worth. Very little side english, at least as best as I could tell. He shot balls into the pockets more accurately than anyone I have ever seen. They just split the pockets. Could Mosconi beat him at 9 ball? Not on your life. Bottom line, I think it depends a lot on what games you are playing. However, on the other end of the spectrum we have Jennifer Barretta playing 9 ball with the softest touch that I have ever seen. Granted, women shoot softer anyways, but Jennifer's stroke really gets the job done well. Wish the best for her. And in conclusion, I have no idea as to whether a soft or hard stroke is better at 9 ball. Personally, I like to shoot hard sometimes and soft others - it depends on the shot, and the game. Regards, WW

WW,
A pretty strong statement. Mosconi didn't like 9-ball (as a "gambler's game"), but an aquaintance of my father worked at a famous pool hall in Kansas City (where Mosconi lived and played for a while) - he reports that Mosconi broke and ran 9 straight racks the first time he played the game (not with ball in hand, but during a gambling match). I think Mosconi recounts the episode in his autobiography.

Luther Lassiter is reported to have said that Mosconi would have been the best 9-ball player ever if he had played it competitively. Mosconi (on a lark), entered a world championship 3-cushion billiards tournament and finished 2nd to the great Willie Hoppe (of interest Irving Crane and Joe Procita both finished in the top 5 also). Willie was good.

When Dixon and Willie match up in heaven, my money is on Willie (hopefully he won't dump on me).

Any one out there think Dixon (??Dickson) could roll over Willie (seeing as how no one rolled over Willie until he had a couple of serious strokes, then he was merely above average)??

 

[sjm]

Whatever. I like to jack up and spank whitey around the table as often as possible - especially on a table with real tight pockets. You go on with your soft, draw, spin follow shot. I'll stick to the power game, baby! Pfft.


DISCLAIMER: Actual results may vary.

Hit the cue ball hard enough and all tables are tight pocket tables!

 

[sjm]

Luther Lassiter is reported to have said that Mosconi would have been the best 9-ball player ever if he had played it competitively. Mosconi (on a lark), entered a world championship 3-cushion billiards tournament and finished 2nd to the great Willie Hoppe (of interest Irving Crane and Joe Procita both finished in the top 5 also). Willie was good.

Willie, as you know, I saw Lassiter play many times and Irving Crane was a good friend of mine.

Irving always said Lassiter was clearly the best nine-baller on the planet, though he would add that Johnny Irish was nearly as tough in an action game. I never saw Cole play, and don't doubt he was a sensational pocketer, but, over the years, I have heard so many call Lassiter the "greatest pocketer ever" that I accept it as fact.

Still, I think we need to note that these old-timers didn't play Texas Express, and in the old "one-shot shootout" version of nine-ball, where "push outs" were far more common, one's ability to make the super-tough shot was far more critical than it is today.

My suspicion is that Mosconi would have been better in Texas Express than in "one shot shootout." Had Texas Express been around in Mosconi's day, assuming Mosconi played it, I think he'd have been better at it than Lassiter.

I'm guessing Lassiter was just being gracious, and that in his heart of hearts, he guessed he was and always would be the best at "one shot shootout".
We'll never know.

 

[Williebetmore]

Hit the cue ball hard enough and all tables are tight pocket tables!

SJM,
Tap, tap, tap. My nominee for post of the year (truer words were never spoken).

It's difficult to find people who have even seen both Lassiter and Mosconi play at their peaks (though as I have told you, my father did) - they were not really contemporaries. We know Mosconi was a better straight pool player, but he never really played 9-ball (I'm pretty sure he would be better at 9-ball than Corey Deuel will be at golf) - so I'm certain that Luther's accomplishments are superior in that area. In the grey area of potential though, I guess we'll never know. I do know that my father and several friends said that there was never a shotmaker even close to Willie (they would all laugh scornfully during those old "Legends of Pocket Billiards" segments when announcers would suggest that maybe Luther was). They all described Willie as a balls-out, dynamic, pocketing machine (Willie really had a distate for Crane's style of safety play - though I forget the exact quote you told me). You have convinced me though that in the follow-up match in heaven, I'm taking Luther over Cole Dixon also (I know Luther hated to dump, so maybe I can make some cash).

 

[sjm]

SJM,
Tap, tap, tap. My nominee for post of the year (truer words were never spoken).

It's difficult to find people who have even seen both Lassiter and Mosconi play at their peaks (though as I have told you, my father did) - they were not really contemporaries. We know Mosconi was a better straight pool player, but he never really played 9-ball (I'm pretty sure he would be better at 9-ball than Corey Deuel will be at golf) - so I'm certain that Luther's accomplishments are superior in that area. In the grey area of potential though, I guess we'll never know. I do know that my father and several friends said that there was never a shotmaker even close to Willie (they would all laugh scornfully during those old "Legends of Pocket Billiards" segments when announcers would suggest that maybe Luther was). They all described Willie as a balls-out, dynamic, pocketing machine (Willie really had a distate for Crane's style of safety play - though I forget the exact quote you told me). You have convinced me though that in the follow-up match in heaven, I'm taking Luther over Cole Dixon also (I know Luther hated to dump, so maybe I can make some cash).

Willie, let's not forget that, though Irving was noted for his cautious approach, Crane was a many-time 300 ball runner and that he considered himself as good as anyone that ever played straight pool when 5 X 10 tables were in use, and was always prepared to gamble with Willie on a 5 x 10. He quickly conceded that Mosconi was his superior on a 9 x 4 1/2.

The quote you're referring to is, no doubt, the one that really rubbed Irving the wrong way. Mosconi said, "Crane wouldn't play any shot his grandmother couldn't make." Ouch!