I agree with Kevin too. I would add that sometimes everything seems right, i.e., all your pre-shot routines have been done and you're down over the ball and you just don't feel good at that point, something just feels wrong with the shot. I think this is the time when a system helps to get you back in a groove again.
How important are aiming methods really?
- Thread starter JLW
- Start date
My question is ,is it better to learn how to aim with a concious aiming system tought by someone else or by trail and error letting your brain figure out it's own method? And once learnt Is being concious of how you are doing it going to help your game? The last question I think is applicable to alot more than just aiming.
Canadian cue said:
I might suggest different strokes for different people.
Technical type people may learn better with technical aiming systems. With the theory, they can apply it to real world scenarios, and benefit.
Non-technical people would likely rather not engage in technical aiming systems. All that technical stuff could just be too confusing, and not really useful for them anyway.
No matter which method is used, there will always be trial an error. That's the challenge of pool. How closely you can turn the visualization or mental image before the shot, to an actual reality after the shot.
I'd agree like has already been stated by Kevin, that when everything is working well, there doesn't need to be any conscious thought of any systems. But, when things aren't working, aiming systems can be useful to help get things back on track.
Sometimes too, it helps to understand your aiming technique, so that you can refine your skills (new onion layer) with practice. If you have no clue, then all you can do is trial and error until you gain the experience.
Canadian cue said:
I don't know whether to take a swing at this or not, or play safety.
Systems help in practice or when you are unsure, want to double-check, etc. Once sure, it is execution time giving it your best straight stroke, no second-guessing. You are sure, aren't you?
Trusting yourself is good when it works... doesn't always. Aiming systems augment, do not replace, your basic eye-hand coordination. Aiming systems build agreement with the "right amount of cut" guesstimate for each shot. If you have no trouble aiming and hitting the spot now, you have no need for any further systems. If you have trouble/need help there are some ideas out there that may be useful.
In play, these practice sessions with systems help you trust your initial aim, help refine, etc. but you are above the level of systems, to some extent, you are just doing it.
The point of working on these low-level things in practice, such as aim/approach/stance/bridge/cueball address/adjust/practice stroke/ back straight pause follow through straight/ is so that in play you don't have to really think about them, they just happen. Your only concern gamewise is should it be offense/defense where place CB OB, decided, now let's do it (by lining up straight/speed/spin/etc) then feeling comfortable it is going to happen then let go and shoot, and watch it unfold as you planned. And sit down, or keep shooting.
About 20 things have to go right every time for a ball or shot to go as planned, practicing the low level things so they "just happen right" at game time is the price paid for consistent excellence... or approach thereof.
Think how to win when standing up, shoot when down.
and good luck. And yes, the better you get the less conscious it needs to be, the other parts "naturally" fall into place mostly.
Canadian cue said:
I think its up to the brain. This is what I do and I am not saying it's the best way.
When I hit a few balls before I play I see the object ball to the pocket, its path. When I am off a little it is because I am not able to see it that clearly. As I focus more it starts to clear up. My mind knows the strike of the cue ball to enable the object ball to travel through a given path to the part of the pocket I am playing. My mind also knows without telling it that depending on high, low, left or right english and speed where my contact point will be. This part is automatic, even to adjust for humidity. Given this aiming method all shots on the table seem to play almost at the same level of ease. I do sometimes take longer to reach this point of clearity, but when I do, it seems nothing is difficult and even more important it seems that my concentration is less likely to be broken.
I focus on the object balls path and it works well for me.
Joe T
Well-known member
I’ve posted my method of aim before but here goes once again, it is tough to explain without visual aid.
I’ve numbered each contact point on an object ball 0-9 on both the left and right sides.
I have also numbered the front of the cue ball with the same exact numbers 0-9.
So the method is based on parallel or matching contact points but what I’ve done is presented it in a way where it is quick and easy to pick out the contact point on the front of your cue ball (the only part of the shot that does the actual work) rather than the old fashion way of trying shift your cue stick over or visualize a parallel line.
Once you identify the contact point on the object ball (which number it is, say 4) your brain now has the exact answer as to which part of the cue ball you’ll be aiming to the object balls contact point. 4 on the cue ball to 4 on the object ball.
Knowing the precise answer based on fact not feel will not only add confidence to your game but it’ll allow you to properly align to a shot and because you are definitely aiming one contact point to another as you would with a gun to a target you are much less likely to steer the shot at the last second because you’ll be doing your absolute best to hold that straight line.
Here’s a few aiming lines with matching contact points.
If the object ball is on either end rail the contact point is 9 and no matter where your cue ball is, the contact point on it is 9.
If you want the object ball to travel straight across the table along the rail to the pocket, it must be struck with the part of the cue ball that is also pointing straight across the table. In this case those matching contact points are 9-9.
If your object ball is on either of the long side rails the contact point is 0 and no matter where your cue ball is, its contact point is 0.
0 is always the part of the cue ball that is pointing to or closest to the end rails of the table. So if you want a ball to travel straight down the rail it must be struck with the part of the cue ball that is pointing straight down the table.
Each contact point coincides with an aiming line out of each pocket. That's how you identify the shot numbers, see which aiming line it's on.
The end rail is aiming line 9
From the corner pocket to the side pocket is aiming line 4.5
(So a spot shot is 4.5 - 4.5 no matter where your cue ball is).
The long side rails represent aiming line 0.
There are 10 major aiming lines to learn, once you learn to identify the shots your brain has more exact information to help you aim the shot better. These 10 shots come up over and over, all night long. It may sound technical because I’ve used numbers to represent the contact points but it’s not, you don’t have to be able to recognize or memorize any ANGLES, they don’t matter. Anybody that’s seen me play recently knows I’m not an analytical player, I play fairly quick and loose (with head phones) knowing the answers before you get down on the money ball is priceless!
I’ve played for about 20 years now and the last 3 with this aiming system and I can honestly say I play less pool now but play at a higher level and actually know why.
One note to our priceless critics, Yes the method does take into account for deflection, curve and throw. Rather than tell someone aim a little fuller or thinner (vague) I tell them to adjust one or two numbers over. It’s a much more specific approach and easier to recall how much your cue ball deflects and curves on different clothes.
In closing I would like to say the method does has one down side, it’s not a magic pill you have to take your time to learn and master each of the 10 shots one at a time but once learned you'll have aiming answers for life. I’ve found that trying to teach old dogs new tricks is very, very tough. It is much easier to teach the players coming into the game that don’t have the years of old ways and habits. So I don’t see it becoming a popular method for another 5 or 10 years as instructors are just now starting to teach it.
BUT
It is the best aiming system on the planet.
I’ve numbered each contact point on an object ball 0-9 on both the left and right sides.
I have also numbered the front of the cue ball with the same exact numbers 0-9.
So the method is based on parallel or matching contact points but what I’ve done is presented it in a way where it is quick and easy to pick out the contact point on the front of your cue ball (the only part of the shot that does the actual work) rather than the old fashion way of trying shift your cue stick over or visualize a parallel line.
Once you identify the contact point on the object ball (which number it is, say 4) your brain now has the exact answer as to which part of the cue ball you’ll be aiming to the object balls contact point. 4 on the cue ball to 4 on the object ball.
Knowing the precise answer based on fact not feel will not only add confidence to your game but it’ll allow you to properly align to a shot and because you are definitely aiming one contact point to another as you would with a gun to a target you are much less likely to steer the shot at the last second because you’ll be doing your absolute best to hold that straight line.
Here’s a few aiming lines with matching contact points.
If the object ball is on either end rail the contact point is 9 and no matter where your cue ball is, the contact point on it is 9.
If you want the object ball to travel straight across the table along the rail to the pocket, it must be struck with the part of the cue ball that is also pointing straight across the table. In this case those matching contact points are 9-9.
If your object ball is on either of the long side rails the contact point is 0 and no matter where your cue ball is, its contact point is 0.
0 is always the part of the cue ball that is pointing to or closest to the end rails of the table. So if you want a ball to travel straight down the rail it must be struck with the part of the cue ball that is pointing straight down the table.
Each contact point coincides with an aiming line out of each pocket. That's how you identify the shot numbers, see which aiming line it's on.
The end rail is aiming line 9
From the corner pocket to the side pocket is aiming line 4.5
(So a spot shot is 4.5 - 4.5 no matter where your cue ball is).
The long side rails represent aiming line 0.
There are 10 major aiming lines to learn, once you learn to identify the shots your brain has more exact information to help you aim the shot better. These 10 shots come up over and over, all night long. It may sound technical because I’ve used numbers to represent the contact points but it’s not, you don’t have to be able to recognize or memorize any ANGLES, they don’t matter. Anybody that’s seen me play recently knows I’m not an analytical player, I play fairly quick and loose (with head phones) knowing the answers before you get down on the money ball is priceless!
I’ve played for about 20 years now and the last 3 with this aiming system and I can honestly say I play less pool now but play at a higher level and actually know why.
One note to our priceless critics, Yes the method does take into account for deflection, curve and throw. Rather than tell someone aim a little fuller or thinner (vague) I tell them to adjust one or two numbers over. It’s a much more specific approach and easier to recall how much your cue ball deflects and curves on different clothes.
In closing I would like to say the method does has one down side, it’s not a magic pill you have to take your time to learn and master each of the 10 shots one at a time but once learned you'll have aiming answers for life. I’ve found that trying to teach old dogs new tricks is very, very tough. It is much easier to teach the players coming into the game that don’t have the years of old ways and habits. So I don’t see it becoming a popular method for another 5 or 10 years as instructors are just now starting to teach it.
BUT
It is the best aiming system on the planet.
It seems that everyone is talking about aiming for simple cue ball to object ball to pocket shots. What about 2,3, and 4 rail kicks or banks? I recently having been taking one pocket lessons from a very good player who has taught me several systems for kicking and banking 2 or more rails and my game has improved 200 percent because of them.
ABSOLUTELY.Vonn31 said:
If we could all send the cueball to the exact spot where it needs to be upon contact with the o.b. and at the right speed with the right spin, we'd be all pros.
Joe T
Well-known member
JoeyInCali said:
You guys are absolutely right about the stroke flaws BUT how do these players know if they're aimed right in the first place? We’re not all blessed with perfect perception. These are 2 pretty small contact points we’re trying to connect and I’ll bet less than 1% of us can tell you the exact contact point of the cue ball that we’re aiming at the object ball?
I'm an experienced instructor and can tell when a player is lined up right or wrong on a straight in shot but have a lot of difficulty seeing if they're off on angled shots. I have also found that many of my students initially misperceive shots in the same manner, before they ever pull the trigger. I have also found that when a player is initially aimed wrong that a final stroke correction in the needed direction ALWAYS, ALWAYS occurs. That's no BS, And it can’t be a coincidence. Every student or Player I've studied that is initially aimed wrong on a straight in shot has always made a stroke correction in the needed direction. It’s as if their eyes tell them to initially line up here but then their subconscious knows they’re off and forces this needed correction which in most cases is diagnosed as a stroke flaw. On the other side of the ball, the few students or players I’ve studied that are initially lined up and aimed properly don’t have these tendencies to steer their stroke. Go try it with anybody, line them up some straight in shots and study them from beyond the intended pocket. To magnify the problem set up some long straight in jacked up shots. You’ll be able to see it for sure.
I think, and I’m not pointing out anyone specific and really don’t want to make any enemies but I think stroke flaws have been easy to identify and then easy to teach, that’s why so many of us instructors are quick to point them out and tell a student to do this or that instead. The root problem of many crooked or last second stroke correction may very well be due initial sighting flaws? This is something that is very hard for players and instructors to pick up on and an area I believe to be under researched. I’m doing my part right now to help bring this problem into light and actually have a new product being developed to help players train themselves in the sighting and straight stroke department.
I’m interested if anyone out there has any experience being able to tell if a player is aimed right to begin with. I’ve done it by eye mostly but have also used a black line over a camera lens that would cover the center of the object ball, cue ball and line of cue stick on straight in shots to show the alignment.
Looking forward to some useful insights.
drivermaker said:
I'm interested in references you have for these quotes from far better players (perhaps! there is hope yet!) than me.
I have at least 5 Grady tapes, don't know how many he has made but I can't recall offhand any mention of using the lights or base of the ball to aim. He does mention one other situation I can illustrate and find on tape if interested about overcutting a cut to the corner pocket. I don't know of any George Breedlove instructional tapes, though I know he is married to Jeanette Lee, lives in Indiana, and is a great pro player semi-retired now.
I am not aware of any magaziine article or tape anywhere with Efren discussing his systems, other than brief comments "I got lucky" by accu-stats after a match anywhere. If you have or know them discussed "at length" somewhere, Give it up! please. If you can't find it readily... no Hal Houle funny business (I did open that door... but will hold feet to fire on Efren).
I paid C.J.Wiley's website to send me his tapes about $90 and the tapes never got to me... can't say, have bad internet ordering memories/experiences with several less than %100 on-the-ball pool-related websites.
Willie Mosconi, in his one book, I think (dredging back 35+ years) said "contact-point to contact-point is the only true aiming system".
I stand welcome to be corrected on any and all of the above points, and would appreciate internet pointers if possible, commercial tapes if available (or not easily, time and persistence will pay off...)
Other easy references to top pro's discussing aiming systems available by magazine (via public library inter-library loan) or better yet online would be welcome.
Using the lights for aiming has only been mentioned to my poor knowledge base by ?Bob Jewitt? several years ago in Billiards Digest magazine, and referentially at that.
Drivermaker, if you please, more detail on the how to find these sought-after materials (at least by me), please.
Efren uses sectional aiming and has discussed that at length. CJ Wiley on his tape uses an aiming system and Willie Mosconi used equal and opposite aiming systems. Many of the pros describe how they aim and what they use in various articles.
DM, who told you of this about Efren's aiming system?
Someone misquoting Efren?
I've been told by a man who used to play with Mosconi, he used the ghost ball. He swears Willie wouldn't have nothing to do with that dividing thingy. The old gentleman is a fine straight-pool player and is the TD at my local hall.
DM, who told you of this about Efren's aiming system?
Someone misquoting Efren?
I've been told by a man who used to play with Mosconi, he used the ghost ball. He swears Willie wouldn't have nothing to do with that dividing thingy. The old gentleman is a fine straight-pool player and is the TD at my local hall.
pete lafond said:
I'm with you here, when it works, it is all intuitive magic, ask and with very little thinking it just is so smooth... I too have been world champion in my local poolroom some nights (almost! every rack presents some unexpected goobers!, and overcoming is welcome, and a positive result of past experiences of bone-headed position play recovery shots).
When it works, it works, you are god incarnate. I took a lesson from Jan McWhorter, WPBA pro, in Ventura, CA... she said many good things, one of which was why am I changing up my stance when jacked up near the rail by the side pocket, and I must be moving my head because I don't see the ultimate OB contact point result. I paid for that.
But I digress... When you are playing well, nobody can stop you. But to improve your game, you have to bring up the low points of when you are sucking, and still push on to win. This is practice, to improve your worst aspects and thus bring up the overall level of your game. Hard work, not much fun, pain, memories... release, banishment of fears, overcoming. Level up.
Practice what you hate, and be better for it.
Go VA Pool Player
and sorry if I got off track here.
BrianK74 said:True, but since I'm assuming JLW is the best shooter in the world, his stroke must be perfect.
Also, you forgot to call me on the whole cue ball deflection created by extreme english and how this can cause the object ball to veer off it's intended path.
I took stroke mechanics out of the equation because we can wax intellectual all day about the fifty thousand factors involved in a perfect stroke. The pros, we can assume, have great stroke mechanics but still miss shots all the time. This then would be a factor of english or mis-aiming, and if it was the english, they didn't compensate for deflection.
I was simply stating that if a player aims every shot by only examining the shot from behind the cue-ball, they would miss on a regular basis. It is important to walk around the table, see the shots from another angle, see potential problems and avoid them.
My point was still valid, no matter how passionate you are about invalidating it. Next time I'll post a 150 paragraph thesis covering every subject relating to shot making and we can all argue over it until we all want to vomit.
I can see from some of the responses I've gotten that many people read things into my original post that I did not intend. Sorry for not being clear enough. I can see that people are very passionate about this subject. Let me try to clear up any misunderstandings.
I don't pretend to be a world class shooter. But, I've been playing off and on for 35 years or so, and I can hold my own. When I shoot, I don't consciously use any technical "system" to aim. I stand over the shot. As I do this, I try to get a sense of the the line (angle) of the shot. I then get down on the shot and look at the OB. As I do this, I get a sense of where I need to hit the OB to make the shot. I don't think about ghost balls (I used this system a lot when I first started playing) or any of the other methods discussed here. I just look at the OB and try to "see" the spot I need to hit. Now, as I'm doing this, I do try to make sure my body is aligned properly and that when I stroke the cue, I contact the CB precisely where I want. Again, I've never said I was a world class player or that I have perfect aim, or that I never miss. I"ve just said that this is how I aim and that it works very well for me. I have a 4x8 table at home, and I often play snooker on several different regulation 5x10 tables. This "method" of aim works just fine for both. And I'm sorry Kevin, but I don't miss on a regular basis. I wondered if others had the same experience with their aiming, and so I started this thread.
Thanks for all who have responded. It's been very informative for me.
I am OK with you, and Brian, and the world. Can't we all just dance like no tomorrow. (its a disco joke thang).JLW said:
No one I know is 100%, some days we get close, other days 30% with safety is good enough to take wins home.
What more is there to say about aiming but on solo time practice aiming hard, accept no substitute but success, get down, focus, execute. Game time the diligence pays off.
All the best to everyone who cares about this thread, accept no substitute but hard focus on every shot... those shots you take easy come back and bite you in the ass hard when it matters. And there is no more to say, but practice, practice, practice. VAPoolplayer might agree.
Jimmy M. said:
I know you were joking, but if the person trying to explain it is an instructor I would say yes, it is the instructors fault. IMO a big part of being an instructor is finding several ways to explain something so that if someone doesnt understand it one way it can be explained another. If there is a student that just doesnt understand it then the instructor hasnt found enough ways to explain it.