How much warp is "natural"

[breakshot]

a shaft should never warp!

If you start with good straight grain old growth maple and turn and naturally dry (not kiln dried) the shafts a controlled number of times AND eliminate any shafts that start to develop any warp during this lengthy process. You will have shafts that will NEVER warp if cared for properly.

The problem is that these companies that produce volume amounts of shafts cannot cost effectively produce shafts this way -it takes too long and costs too much money.

Craig

 

[Craig Fales]

I'm actually in the process of replacing my entire set-up. I have a Predator P2 and a Lucasi Break/Jump and just recently, I realized both butts are warped. I did a little research and found that prior to doing ANYTHING with wood, it has to be dried so that the moisture is at or below 30%. This makes sense since we all have wood furniture and no matter what we do with it, that old wood chair maintains its shape.

My question is, I use a locker which keeps my cues flat (horizontal) and in a Porper case. By any chance, could this have any impact on its warping or can I assume that in both instances, the cue company is at fault? Are there any other common scenarios that could cause warping?

I don't do anything with wood in cues until it's less than 10% moisture...I had a shaft that I turned to finish size and left it sit flat on a shelf and forgot about it...two years later it was still straight...

 

[JoeyInCali]

I'm actually in the process of replacing my entire set-up. I have a Predator P2 and a Lucasi Break/Jump and just recently, I realized both butts are warped. I did a little research and found that prior to doing ANYTHING with wood, it has to be dried so that the moisture is at or below 30%. This makes sense since we all have wood furniture and no matter what we do with it, that old wood chair maintains its shape.

My question is, I use a locker which keeps my cues flat (horizontal) and in a Porper case. By any chance, could this have any impact on its warping or can I assume that in both instances, the cue company is at fault? Are there any other common scenarios that could cause warping?

If a cue warped inside a case, unstable wood.
Now, let's have this scenario.
Say your cue butt was 1 MM away from final size.
The butt is stored in a shop where it is exposed to varying humidity and heat/cold level for months before final turn. Then after a few months of getting exposed to real world elements( short of getting tortured of course ), wouldn't that be more stable? It'd laugh at the hardship of being in a case inside a locker.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

If a cue warped inside a case, unstable wood.
Now, let's have this scenario.
Say your cue butt was 1 MM away from final size.
The butt is stored in a shop where it is exposed to varying humidity and heat/cold level for months before final turn. Then after a few months of getting exposed to real world elements( short of getting tortured of course ), wouldn't that be more stable? It'd laugh at the hardship of being in a case inside a locker.

Hmm... It's just frustrating. I don't think it's affecting how they play but I'm going to have to replace them nonetheless and I'd like to do what I can to prevent this from happening in the future. If it's production cues I should worry about, I'll have to give custom cues a serious thought. The good thing is, the Super Billiard Expo is coming up so maybe I can hold off until then.

Ugh.

 

[Snapshot9]

shafts

I always stand my cases up vertical, but a good shaft shouldn't warp, although there are exceptions.

Jude ... From what I have picked up about your playing, I would think you should be looking at a good custom cue.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Hmm... It's just frustrating. I don't think it's affecting how they play but I'm going to have to replace them nonetheless and I'd like to do what I can to prevent this from happening in the future. If it's production cues I should worry about, I'll have to give custom cues a serious thought. The good thing is, the Super Billiard Expo is coming up so maybe I can hold off until then.

Ugh.

Everytime you miss a straight-in shaft, you will hate that thing more.

 

[TATE]

How much warp is "natural" for a shaft? Since wood is imperfect, every shaft has to have some slight amount of deviation from perfect. I was wondering if I should be able to see a slight change in a "straight shaft"?

The reason I ask is that both my Fury J/B and my Z shaft have developed very very slight rolls. If I roll them on a table, I can't tell from the top, but if I look under the shaft at the little opening between the shaft and the table I can see it undulate slightly (<1 mm). Is this something to be worried about and should I claim warranty on it? I know it doesn't affect my performance at all, but I'm still wondering if I should send them in on warranty. Both cues are very new...in fact I've only had the Fury for a few hours.

The way you are viewing the shaft will show you even the smallest deviation. Most players never check their shafts (or handles) in this fashion, and if they did, they would be surprised to find that many of the cues they consider straight are actually quite warped.

If the gap only changes by a mm, I would consider the shaft to be pretty straight, because it's only out of round by .5mm. It's wood and a small deviation due to climate and humidity is entirely possible. This tiny deviation will not affect your play whatsoever.

Here's how I check a cue for straightness. I use a flat surface such as a countertop or desk. Viewing the shaft at eye level, I slowly turn it (keeping it stationary) and examine the gap under the shaft. If it stays the same, the shaft is straight.

I do the same thing with the handle. Most butts also have a gap, but they can also sit flat or rise at the joint or butt. The main thing is the parts stay the same as it's rotated. You will quickly see any lifting of the joint or butt, or change in the handle gap.

Then if both parts are straight, I assemble the cue and sight down it, and slowly turn it. If the joint is not properly aligned, you will see it immediately.

Properly stored (meaning not in your garage, attic, or closed car in the summer, where 120 degree temperatures are normal), some shafts stay perfectly straight indefinitely, but this is the exception, not the rule. Most of the cues I own are 40 to 50 years old, and a perfectly straight cue that age, regardless of the maker, is a welcome rarity.

Of the old cues I've seen that stay pretty straight, Tad's and Szamboti's seem to do very well no matter how old.

Chris

 

[Hunter]

Good post, Chris! I think that people are awfully anal over cue warpage. I have owned hundreds of cues and I can honestly say that the only one that I ever noticed affecting my play was severely warped (both butt and tip came way off the table when rolled).

Several factors can contribute to the little anomalies we often find when trying to determine straightness in a cue. For example, I recently sold a cue that had a compound taper (which is already a "warp candidate" in the eyes of a lot of buyers because the joint is off the table to begin with and any tiny little deviation is magnified). I thought it had a little rollout to it with the conventional rolling methods, and I discounted it accordingly. The buyer received the cue, and after he had the wrap changed, guess what? No rollout. The wrap was just heavy in one spot and with the compound taper it looked like it had a tiny whump to it.

Other factors like change in temperature or moisture in the air can sure have an effect on wood. I live in AZ, so I usually have a lot of hot, dry weather. Many times, I'll get a cue from the Midwest that will roll funny the day I get it in, but many times the cue will be straight the next time I check it.

Bottom line is that wood changes with heat and moisture to some degree. Plastic (rings, inlays, buttcaps, etc.) does the same. I worked in the plastic industry for twenty five years and can't tell you how many times the fabrication work we did was affected by the elements. We had to pre-dry Lexan before we vacuum formed it, it was that hygroscopic (water absorbing). Lots of times our pieces wouldn't glue together or would scorch under flame polishing because of the water content. Wood is very much more hygroscopic than plastic, so it's bound to be affected.

Granted, the more time a piece of wood's been allowed to sit, the more minimal the deviation will be, but I believe it will still be there.

Finally, how many people play well enough that a .016" deviation is really going to make a difference in their play? Ever see a film of where you hit the cue ball. I would bet that you would be shocked if you say, decided to hit the ball dead center, and filmed your hit ten times. There would be a lot bigger deviation of human ability to hit the target precisely than .016". If you can hit the same exact spot ten times, or even close, my hat's off to you!

Steve

 

[BRKNRUN]

From what I understand...even if you follow very strict prcedures...a shaft may still warp...It is wood.

My guess is that not one cue maker will say they have never had a shaft warp......but there are guidelines that can be followed to minimize the chance.

The quickest, cheapest and best way to see how bad a shaft is warped is to lay it accross the rail and watch the tip as you roll the shaft.

Vary where the shaft touches the cushion (little above the joint to halfway between the tip and joint etc.) and you will be able to see where along the shaft its actually warped...

Some shafts rolled along the table bed don't appear to be warped...but when you roll them along the rail, the tip bobs severely...

 

[cueandcushion]

Natural or UN-natural?

How much warp is "natural" for a shaft? Since wood is imperfect, every shaft has to have some slight amount of deviation from perfect. I was wondering if I should be able to see a slight change in a "straight shaft"?

.

\
Doesn't "natural" mean...from nature? What is the normal warpage out in the woods? Maple is usually not stripped of its bark and sliced into squares out in nature. I think wood is SUPPOSED to warp. Unfortunately we look for the wood that is UN-natural. Wood that warps to a bare minimum or not at all. We expect wood not to warp...OH..and have nice even grains...Oh..and take a stain and finish nice. Asking wood to not warp is like asking iron to never rust. Too many people complain about warpage that does not affect their game in any way. If they see a slight variation in their cue....they panic.

If the cue plays well then it is within your tolerance and I say play with it.

Shafts are usually pretty cheap. Like $150 bucks a piece usually? Having extras is part of the game. Buy extras. No excuses then.

All wood is crooked. Period. Just depends on how small/large of variance you are willing to accept.

 

[Paul Mon]

zero, i have some 30-40 year old Szams and Bushkas that are perfect, i mean 100% perfect.

I seriously doubt it, no offense intended.

I have to shake my head when reading about those who possess a 100% straight shaft. In the engineering world there is a universal language of measurement. It is called Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerance (GD & T) and its purpose is to eliminate confusion, simplify dimensioning of drawings and standardize inspection of parts, fixtures, tools, etc.

I can assure you that some confusion still exists and also assure you that the word "warp" or "warped" is not addressed at all. Instead you find terms like "deviate from perfect form" and "maximum material condition". Many of today's custom or production cue makers know and understand GD & T and many do not. This doesn't mean that they are good or bad at what they do. I don't want to imply that knowing this language will make either a better cue maker. But, IMO, it will make for a better "production" cue maker.

Today's production manufacturer's know, understand and utilize Statistical Process Control in their shops. Sounds manufacturing practices and state of the art equipment have given production cue manufacturers the ability to build cues that far exceed the capacity of the custom makers at a significant savings for the end user.

Here's a link to free GD & T website for those who want more info.

http://www.tec-ease.com/gdt-tips.htm

Paul Mon

 

[JesPiddlin]

Good post, Chris! I think that people are awfully anal over cue warpage....

A lot of the reason for that is because so many people need their egos fed and cue straightness is the only thing they know about a pool cue. With nothing else to show off with, they think they look more knowledgeable about cues, if they can spot an extremely tiny warp... or anything close.

Also, if they miss a shot, they have a good excuse... The durn cue's warped!

 

[LAlouie]

I'm actually in the process of replacing my entire set-up. I have a Predator P2 and a Lucasi Break/Jump and just recently, I realized both butts are warped. I did a little research and found that prior to doing ANYTHING with wood, it has to be dried so that the moisture is at or below 30%. This makes sense since we all have wood furniture and no matter what we do with it, that old wood chair maintains its shape.

My question is, I use a locker which keeps my cues flat (horizontal) and in a Porper case. By any chance, could this have any impact on its warping or can I assume that in both instances, the cue company is at fault? Are there any other common scenarios that could cause warping?

If you play a lot,,,and it sounds like you do, that means you're always pulling out your cues to play with. THEY SHOULD NOT WARP. Bizarre environment aside, warpage will usually come from extended (as in months) storage because what happens is you leave the cues in a stationary position which allows gravity to do it's dirty work.

Because cues are generally built with some kind of curved taper, their length is not fully support throughout = there will be space,,,and that's when gravity is at play. If you have a proper that has those tubes, they should be ok because the tubes are tapered I think. The kind of tubed cases you DON'T want for extended storage are the Whitten-types because they are not tapered to support. So with the Porper you should stand it straight upright. For laying down storage I suggest the Silver Fox type furry soft case or the 3c neoprene type cases or the Porper neoprene case, as you can imagine, the cues will get full support from tip to bumper. Btw, NEVER SQUEEZE your cues into a tight fit for storage, therefore the George/Fellini-type cases are a no-no.

But you play a lot, so none of what I said should matter. Because they are break cues etc, may I exposit that they were not given the care a cuemaker would extend to expensive playing cues and therefore you got a couple of lemons.

 

[ratcues]

I get questions from customers almost everyday about their cues being warped. As long as the tip stays and it doesn't affect their game, don't worry about it.

Sometimes, depending on the season, wood will move and shift, causing the perception of a warp. You may roll it again in a few weeks and it will roll straight again.

I work on a couple thousand cues a year and I can tell you that a "dead straight" shaft is a rarity.

 

[Irish634]

Today's production manufacturer's know, understand and utilize Statistical Process Control in their shops.

Ahh, the good ol' art of SPC and Six Sigma. On the flip side of this, there are those that have the process controls in place, yet ignore the signs for the almighty dollar and to get product out the door.

Sometimes, depending on the season, wood will move and shift, causing the perception of a warp. You may roll it again in a few weeks and it will roll straight again.

I work on a couple thousand cues a year and I can tell you that a "dead straight" shaft is a rarity.

I am inclined to agree with those statements, especially here in the NE where humidity usually hovers around 125%

 

[LAlouie]

I get questions from customers almost everyday about their cues being warped. As long as the tip stays and it doesn't affect their game, don't worry about it.

Sometimes, depending on the season, wood will move and shift, causing the perception of a warp. You may roll it again in a few weeks and it will roll straight again.

I work on a couple thousand cues a year and I can tell you that a "dead straight" shaft is a rarity.

OP is talking about the butt.

 

[Paul Mon]

Ahh, the good ol' art of SPC and Six Sigma. On the flip side of this, there are those that have the process controls in place, yet ignore the signs for the almighty dollar and to get product out the door.

Funny you should say that. I had a neighbor that worked/retired from Delco. On the off shifts they would stash away and remeasure the good parts so that the line would not stop. Delco was bought out by ITT who was bought out by Valeo who went bankrupt. OTOH, I toured the Toyota plant in Ontario Canada and was extremely impressed with what I saw.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

as long as it doesn't affect your playing accuracy, then that tiny winny 1mm difference shouldn't be a real problem. just enjoy the cue for what you get from it, and not from what you see from it. I had played far worse badly warped cue. and I tell you, you will notice and know then when you should change your shaft.

take this argument for your basis >>> would you settle for somewhat a bit warped cue/shaft but with great playing result or to that of a truely straight cue/shaft but a lame ("DUD") playing action?