I don't think it makes any difference. It's like aiming. You just see it. When you are playing position with the CB, are you counting diamonds? It's exactly the same thing. That's just my opinion, of course.
How much weight do you give to a numbering system for Kick shots?
- Thread starter 336Robin
- Start date
Oikawa
Well-known member
In my mind, using the mirror point as a baseline for kicks makes a difference. I still have to adjust by feel, but not having that baseline makes the whole process more prone to errors due to not only requiring adjustments but also not even being sure about the original line (perception of angles bouncing off cushions from 1-2 meters away aren't all too perfect). It's like adjusting for side or throw without knowing where the original ghost ball point is, it's easier to deviate from an easily findable baseline than come up with the answer all at once. Both require feel, but with the baseline, the mind has more information to work with and therefore the feel strengthens even more over time and provides more accurate answers.
Well, I know it makes a difference. Made a big difference in my case. You are a very experienced player. I only got back in the game three years ago after a 25-year absence. I was a good shotmaker when I was young, but knew little of fundamentals.
Oh, sure, I could "aim" and be pretty accurate on dead banks or kicks that were lined up on parallel lines. But it was only after I learned systems that I "knew" what I was doing.
I've practiced banking and kicking for at least a 100 hours this year and last. Lots of times I know where to aim now without doing any measurements. But yes, I still sometimes count diamonds or count in other ways on certain shots. Sometimes because I am not entirely sure. Sometimes to confirm my priors.
I'd like to be as good as you so I don't need to do any of that. But I am not there yet - and probably never will be. Even if I were, though, seeing the pros count or measure sometimes tells me that maybe, just maybe, there is some use to systems.
In any case, I'd rather have learned them than not learn them at all. Certainly no harm in knowing.
Last edited:
Jimmy Reid's system is excellent for multirail shots.
Back in the '80s I had a table in my shop that I made waterbeds and furniture in.
I made a quickie mirror to place on the rail. It was an interesting study. Knowing the angles is a beginning as the other variables are significant.
Excuse my Kicks Like A Mule promotion. But, on the last league night of the 4 games I played (and won) 
1 was a banked 8 ball and another was a kicked in hanger 8ball that got a double kiss.
Practice practice practice
1 was a banked 8 ball and another was a kicked in hanger 8ball that got a double kiss. Practice practice practice
Pool Hand Luke
Well-known member
Chris Melling
I've never played a numbering system before. But I'd feel pretty comfortable giving it 8-7 for $50/game with the understanding that we'd adjust if it gets out of hand either way. (That's how much weight I'd give a numbering system.
)
)
Wayne Crimi
Member
If I ever start playing regularly again, I'll spend some time learning a few systems (especially for multi rail kicks). But it always bothered me that you have to make adjustments from table to table, for speed/spin, and even day to day on the same table due to weather. I always felt like I could get close enough intuitively from experience that if I had to make adjustments by feel anyway, I might as well just stay with feel. But I guess it helps with the tougher ones.
I was playing a fellow some one pocket yesterday and a shot came up where I used the spot on the wall (which I guesses that the spot was derived through the 2nd diamond and I sent a 3 railer to rest in the jaws of the pocket, so sometimes these things can help a lot.
I use a series of sanity checks for some shots. I'll take a look at a long shot, a kick, or a bank, then use one of the systems (numbers, putting your cue tip at the ghost ball, mirror, etc), then go back and see if my initial aim point matches up with the system, then intuit any adjustments. You mix the logical with the feeling and find a happy place. It's all just information into the calculation and ultimate decision.
Last edited:
Do yourself a great big favor and get a copy of Grady Matthews Only Kicks . Bebob Publishing still sells them or copy a friends, I played a lot of really good players in my life ,who kicked by "Feel", most of them kicked pretty good 1 rail , when they could use same angle in same angle out, the more spin they had to put on the ball, the more their "feel" system, lost accuracy. I was never above a high B player but I could use Gradys system and the spot on the wall and hit most 1 2 and 3 rail shots on the high or low side of the ball . Much better average than most feel players.
For the naysayers who tell you the ball has to be a certain place for the system to work. They are wrong, they don't know how to use it. You can
message me if you have any questions you can't get answers to that work, at the pool room you go to.
I taught Gradys system to a guy over the phone once , he was at the pool table ,I had him set the balls up then move up and down the rail with spin, then we went 2 rails , then 3 , in about an hour, he went from couldn't hit a ball one out of 5 or 10 to almost never missing.
The only requirement is that you must be able to deliver a consistent straight stroke, and be able to hit the cue level unless jacking up to get extreme english on the cue ball . {Only rarely necessary}
If you get the tape , let me know how you are doing , if you run into a problem PM me.
Thanks for the pointers. Ordered a used copy.
I have relied on Tory Lowry's two excellent and lengthy tutorials on "kicking and banking" and "diamond systems." Very comprehensive.
Seems Lowry built off the teaching of Jimmy Reid and Grady Matthews, among others. Some of the excerpts I've seen of Grady's instructions are the same as what Lowry is teaching.
The video quality is much better, though.
I've become an excellent banker. My kicking game is decent, but less advanced, because I haven't practiced it as much.
I am a very deductive person, by nature. It makes the study of pool easy but it makes the application of pool more difficult. With that being said, after much study of numbering systems, I give them little weight.
I do use the +2 and corner 5 occasionally, to support my judgment. All numbering systems require adjustments for the ambient conditions, so I only use them as an added bit of information. I do use mirror/measuring frequently.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I do use the +2 and corner 5 occasionally, to support my judgment. All numbering systems require adjustments for the ambient conditions, so I only use them as an added bit of information. I do use mirror/measuring frequently.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I put zero weight into numbering systems. Watch the OB as you stroke the CB. Feel the speed and don't worry about numbers. Numbering systems fail you because you have to adjust for table conditions. Might as well get a good look at the shot instead of worrying about numbers that don't work anyway. They might get you to within 10% of your goal, might at least "get a legal hit" but playing for a legal hit instead of something productive is a losing mentality. A legal hit only gives the table to your opponent, "sells the farm" in 1P parlay. Now if you have an actual plan, as in a safety or a make, then "getting a legal hit" is ok. But if your only goal is to get a legal hit your strategy needs work.
Understand that you can imagine angles and even a table matrix and the geometry holds true... if you have the correct speed and spin.
For a 1 rail kick, use top spin only. It makes the ball come off the rails consistently and it's all about speed control. Using side spin on a 1 rail kick is not smart. 1/50 times you might need to because of a blocker. But don't do it unless absolutely necessary. When using side spin you can't control how hard the OB is struck, which is important to give it a chance to make and not leave it in front of the pocket for an opponent.
Now boogie how can you say that you don't need side spin on 1 rail kick shots? Simple. You change the angle with speed. Harder shortens it, softer widens it, medium as the default is probably worth striving for. Where you hit the rail changes depending on speed, but it's best not to overthink that. Just set up an easy kick and shoot enough of them at different speeds until it makes sense. I do not focus on an aim point on the rail. Pretend the rail doesn't exist and let the shot happen. All tables are different, even depending on the weather/humidity/dirt etc. You'll drive yourself nuts trying to yoke all that into a system. We must adjust, and the subconscious is great at that. Sure, understand what playing long and short means but don't dwell on it. It takes you out of stroke/feel and holds you back.
For a 2 rail kick find the middle of the CB and OB and draw a line to the corner pocket. parallel shift that line to the CB and shoot. Again, just use top spin and speed control to contact. Look at the OB as you strike. I can't say why but the subconscious quickly figures out the parameters and you can be deadly accurate, pocketing balls or hitting them exactly how you want.
Now boogie, how can you say not to use side spin? Easy, practice it. I don't care how the numbers line up, if you can train yourself to do this without side spin you have much more options with speed control. Options on what you want to do with the CB, OB, separation, kick and stick etc. At some point you can start adding whatever spin to the CB but it's all about position, not the actual contact on a kick. It's a lot of variables. Best to stop trying to dominate physics with math and let the natural computer inside you do it.
For 3 rail kicks you might use a system, and you might want to use a touch of running english. It kind of still boils down to understanding how the CB wants to naturally go and getting as close to those parameters as you can. You might have to shift the first contact 6" from ideal and make up for that with speed and spin. On a 3 rail there is no shame in going for a "legal hit only" but if at all possible try to make something happen to your advantage. As you improve on 3 rail then only try to make stuff happen, get out of the "legal hit only" mindset asap. There are less opportunities for 3 rail shots in competition than 1 or 2 rail so it might be something to practice once in a while.
All that said, this game is 90% between the ears so do whatever you trust the most, but if you take one thing from this novella, playing for a "legal hit only" is not a winning strategy. Get the most out of your opportunities. Make it or lock them up in jail.
Some good advice in your post. I do differ on the value of numbering systems, though.
Objectively, they are accurate and useful under ideal conditions. Subjectively, they can only get you so far. Sometimes they are thrown off kilter by table and room conditions, as you note.
Does that mean numbering systems fail players? Not in my experience. I'd contend they are no more likely to fail, and probably fail less, compared to intuition. There is a reason some of the best pros visibly use them here and there.
But it depends on your experience. More experienced players don't have to rely on systems much or at all because, well, they have lots of experience! Their brains become very accurate pool computers. Your brain evidently is one of them.
Number systems are useful for less experienced players, however. In my case, they gave me a roadmap. I can go on any table, and within five or 10 minutes, know how much it plays long or short.
As I have gotten more experience, I do rely more on intuition. I increasingly just know where to hit cue ball on banks or kicks and how much speed and spin to use, if any. But the process, for me, was vastly accelerated by learning numbering and diamond systems.
Knowing systems was kind of like learning the alphabet. Once I knew the letters, I knew how to string them together to form words.
Or in pool language, make shots.
Last edited:
What's your takeaway?
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I don't mean to sound like I'm dumping on systems. They do have a place. It's best to not be ignorant on them. But like the end goal in most pool things, I think it's best to practice it until you don't have to think much about the systems. Every one of our minds work a bit differently so make sure whatever you're doing, you do you.
There is a Dead Aim Kicking Academy document that is really quite useful. At one point before taking a 10+ year break from pool I had all that stuff memorized. I barely ever gave up BIH but I couldn't make 3 shots in a row.
After getting back into pool for the last several years I've not really looked at any system based stuff. It really is useful but at a certain point trying to use 20 different methods/systems just feels like being lost in the weeds. But that's one cool part about pool nowadays, the info is out there and it's fun to learn new stuff.lots of good stuff in your link........I don't mean to sound like I'm dumping on systems. They do have a place. It's best to not be ignorant on them. But like the end goal in most pool things, I think it's best to practice it until you don't have to think much about the systems. Every one of our minds work a bit differently so make sure whatever you're doing, you do you.
There is a Dead Aim Kicking Academy document that is really quite useful. At one point before taking a 10+ year break from pool I had all that stuff memorized. I barely ever gave up BIH but I couldn't make 3 shots in a row.
one of the first references for kicking and systems i ran across...
I quite agree. I learned a lot of systems but there are only two or three I use regularly. And sometimes the answer seems off. So I go a bit more by feel.
Admittedly, I got to a point where my head was swimming in information and I was confusing myself! Now I am simplifying. But yes, I am still glad I learned the information and that it’s out there. When I was a kid, good pool knowledge was really hard to come by.