How often do you need extreme shots?

softshot

softshot

Simplify
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The elbow drop thread stirred this idea in me… how often are those monster stroke shots really necessary ??

You know the ones I mean… power drawing full table from a full table away…. So much follow that you hit the same rail twice or more….

twisting the CB to it’s maximum extremes..

On the one hand sometimes you need to pull a shot out of your ass…if you get a nasty safe pulled on you.. Or you simply got out of line…

sometimes the other guy puts you in jail… but those escapes usually involve multiple rails and aren’t so much a stroke shot as they are a knowledge shot…..or nowadays ..just jump..

But I’m talking about extreme stroke shots.. “Show off” shots..

Because as is the case everywhere in pool ..anytime you reach for an extreme you have the least control..

Now an argument could be made that pushing your envelope gives you a greater comfort zone on lesser shots…

The other argument is.. Why push much farther past the limit of “To Much” stroke to ever use in a game??

I think that the better you get the less you need them..

And the people who really need them often aren’t good enough to execute them reliably on demand..

From a the standpoint of a guy who just wants to win..

What is the definition of useful stroke power?

How much is enough to win and play well?
 
If everything is rolling right, all you need is a little stun and maybe some helping english. If not, which is usually the case, it helps to have everything you can possibly fit in your bag of tricks.

Useful stroke power is hard to gauge depending on your style, if your speed control is not so great and you get less than ideal shape more often, you will tend to need more stroke. If you have Efren's precision, you might as well be playing with a wooden tip and not use chalk.

Enough to win and play well? Depends on what you mean by well. If you want to top off as a B player, you don't need all that much stroke. If you want to beat monsters like Strickland in his prime and Bustamante, you are going to have to match them shot for shot because they will get out where others might have played safe. Basically, if you let guys like that back to the table, even if they are frozen to a blocker or jacked up on the rail with a tough long draw shot, you are not guaranteed a win, so often times, you are better off going for the medium-low percentage shot rather than letting them back to the table. The better you get at those low percentage shots, the better chance you have of winning.
 
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softshot said:
The elbow drop thread stirred this idea in me… how often are those monster stroke shots really necessary ??

You know the ones I mean… power drawing full table from a full table away…. So much follow that you hit the same rail twice or more….

twisting the CB to it’s maximum extremes..

On the one hand sometimes you need to pull a shot out of your ass…if you get a nasty safe pulled on you.. Or you simply got out of line…

sometimes the other guy puts you in jail… but those escapes usually involve multiple rails and aren’t so much a stroke shot as they are a knowledge shot…..or nowadays ..just jump..

But I’m talking about extreme stroke shots.. “Show off” shots..

Because as is the case everywhere in pool ..anytime you reach for an extreme you have the least control..

Now an argument could be made that pushing your envelope gives you a greater comfort zone on lesser shots…

The other argument is.. Why push much farther past the limit of “To Much” stroke to ever use in a game??

I think that the better you get the less you need them..

And the people who really need them often aren’t good enough to execute them reliably on demand..

From a the standpoint of a guy who just wants to win..

What is the definition of useful stroke power?

How much is enough to win and play well?
Click to expand...

Rarely. The safety option is usually a better choice than the 4 rail bank or the 2 1/2 table length draw shot.

BUT...having these capabilities makes everything else easier. For example if you have the big draw stroke in your arsenal, it means that you can do smaller versions of it more consistently and with more accuracy than the guy who doesn't.

You don't have that many table length shots throughout a match, but the player that is comfortable potting 8-9 foot shots will be deadly accurate at closer ranges.

By comparison, I had guitar students who would say "Why bother learning how to play fast when I don't play that style of music". The answer is simple, for the guitarist who can shred everything else by comparison is slow and simple.

The concept of "good enough" is very dangerous for ones progression. It often leads to stagnation at some point in your development.
 
if you play at table speed you'll almost never need that sort of stroke. but its good to practice because you'll never know when one will come up.
and thats a great post above.
 
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Cameron Smith said:
The concept of "good enough" is very dangerous for ones progression. It often leads to stagnation at some point in your development.
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I understand what you are saying..

right now I have a straight line drill that is 4 diamond long... I can make the shot and drop my CB anywhere on that line from anywhere on that line.. I practice it almost everyday.. I have pretty much mastered it.. and I'm thinking of extending it a couple more diamonds.. just to keep pushing my envelope..

I'm just trying to figure out how far to take it.. without overkill...

I don't want to waste time working on shots I'll never need.
 
Maybe 1 in 15 games I'll need something extreme, a heavy duty amount of sidespin or draw or force follow. Or a razor thin long cut could also be an extreme shot.

As I get a little smarter at the table I'm learning the value of risking a miss to improve position for the next shot. I'll gamble a little on the current shot so that there's no way the next shot needs a monster stroke or crazy accuracy. I'll even settle for a bank once in a while, when a few years ago I'd say "don't bank unless you have a gun to your head".

These days the only crazy stroke shots I need to do are usually something the other guy left me. I just refuse to leave them for myself.
 
softshot said:
how often are those monster stroke shots really necessary ??
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If you play perfect position, never :) That's how you recognize average players from good ones: the former make amazing shots all the time to run a rack, the latter do the same with easy-looking, unimpressive shots.

That's the ironic thing with pool: the better you can execute extreme shots, the less you need them.
 
I would have to say that having it great trying not to use it is what I spend my days doing..

I can draw the ball as far as anyone I ever saw besides Larry Nevel...Still work on his record from time to time...I think I am scared of breaking the cue is why I think I am coming up short.

That being said I would like to say the hardest thing and the most beneficial thing I have learned is to get through the game with no spin. This is the hardest to learn, and eventually the easiest way to play. I am learning this game now it is all I practice. I think this last year has been the best year of my life in learning about the pocket games...

I am very glad I learned the stroke shots...It is helpful to know what my maximum amount of spin is.

I am a believer that it is real easy to back off your stroke, but impossible to add to the stroke during any given shot. I also think that anything I can learn about the pool balls will be helpful even if what I learned is that I should never do that.

If I had to put an exact number on it I would say as few as I can...But I am not scared when I need to.
 
In School we calculate that about 1 out of 50 shots might be a "Monster" application!

I work on my 2-3 diamond work more than anything....SPF=randyg
 
To me, it seems silly to not practice the monster shots. As Jamison said, it's easier to back off from your maximum stroke than it is to add to it. And as Randyg says, it's about 1 out of 50 shots that might need the monster stroke.

I am often surprised when people post here as if they play perfect position or even have an opportunity to play perfect position. Sometimes you're left a shot after the break, after a cluster shot, after settling to cinch, or just running position 1mm too far into an area that requires a stroke shot.

Sometimes we play Scotch Doubles where every shot is an adventure.

In my opinion, it's damned stupid to not push the limits of your stroke. Defining what is difficult in your game helps to redefine what is easy.

Fred
 
randyg said:
In School we calculate that about 1 out of 50 shots might be a "Monster" application!

I work on my 2-3 diamond work more than anything....SPF=randyg
Click to expand...

That sounds about right to me. And it's actually pretty often: 1 in 7 racks of 8 ball or 1 in 6 racks of 9 ball. So not having those shots in your arsenal is a pretty big handicap that would likely arise in a typical race to 5.

In one pocket, you sometimes need to clean a ball of the foot rail and hold it with force follow; power draw shots from far away are less common, but do come up; heavy spin shots are routine.

Cory
 
When you play shape like I do then its every other shot ;)






it does help to have em in the bag when you need em though.
 
Well there is also this way of looking at it...No shot in pool is to extreme...shots that seem extreme may not be that bad at all if you take the time to try mastering them. An example is a full table draw shot. The day you see the better player do this it is nearly impossible, but with some practice most people are able to get it down, and years later it is as routine as a cut in the side. Remember when you kept scratching in the corner on that side cut?

Pool is a game of conquering your own weaknesses. Good luck mastering the stroke. I have an little award from the WPA that says World Champion of the stroke, and I still change it every time I think I can make an improvement.

I got some great advise from Charlie Bryant about hitting stroke shots very hard. I think he charges for lessons so you will have to ask him...
 
softshot said:
The elbow drop thread stirred this idea in me… how often are those monster stroke shots really necessary ??

You know the ones I mean… power drawing full table from a full table away…. So much follow that you hit the same rail twice or more….

twisting the CB to it’s maximum extremes..

On the one hand sometimes you need to pull a shot out of your ass…if you get a nasty safe pulled on you.. Or you simply got out of line…

sometimes the other guy puts you in jail… but those escapes usually involve multiple rails and aren’t so much a stroke shot as they are a knowledge shot…..or nowadays ..just jump..

But I’m talking about extreme stroke shots.. “Show off” shots..

Because as is the case everywhere in pool ..anytime you reach for an extreme you have the least control..

Now an argument could be made that pushing your envelope gives you a greater comfort zone on lesser shots…

The other argument is.. Why push much farther past the limit of “To Much” stroke to ever use in a game??

I think that the better you get the less you need them..

And the people who really need them often aren’t good enough to execute them reliably on demand..

From a the standpoint of a guy who just wants to win..

What is the definition of useful stroke power?

How much is enough to win and play well?
Click to expand...

The better you play, the less you need shots like that... If you stay in line and have the right angle on every shot it's almost never necessary to use anything extreme. Not that it's easy to achieve....
 
softshot said:
The elbow drop thread stirred this idea in me… how often are those monster stroke shots really necessary ??

You know the ones I mean… power drawing full table from a full table away…. So much follow that you hit the same rail twice or more….

twisting the CB to it’s maximum extremes..

On the one hand sometimes you need to pull a shot out of your ass…if you get a nasty safe pulled on you.. Or you simply got out of line…

sometimes the other guy puts you in jail… but those escapes usually involve multiple rails and aren’t so much a stroke shot as they are a knowledge shot…..or nowadays ..just jump..

But I’m talking about extreme stroke shots.. “Show off” shots..

Because as is the case everywhere in pool ..anytime you reach for an extreme you have the least control..

Now an argument could be made that pushing your envelope gives you a greater comfort zone on lesser shots…

The other argument is.. Why push much farther past the limit of “To Much” stroke to ever use in a game??

I think that the better you get the less you need them..

And the people who really need them often aren’t good enough to execute them reliably on demand..

From a the standpoint of a guy who just wants to win..

What is the definition of useful stroke power?

How much is enough to win and play well?
Click to expand...

You're right - radical shots just don't come up that often where there is no better alternative. Also, there is always a danger of missing and miscue etc.

However, this particular shot comes up all the time in 9 ball and it's nice to have a shot in your bag of tricks for it, especially on tight pockets. I practice this and can pull it off regularly now.

It's a controlled table length draw shot. I use an elevated closed bridge, relatively short bridge for me - maybe 7" and jack up the back of the cue a little and hit the cue ball just a tip below the equator with good follow through, focusing just on the aim and a hard but smooth stroke.

I think it's effective because the cue ball skips a little to the OB and doesn't lose much draw spin, then comes back to me controllably. It's much easier to hit this smoothly with the elbow dropping as you pass through the stroke. Since it's only a tip low, there is little danger of miscue.

Anyway, I used it at a tourney just this past weekend. It's very effective and not difficult to execute with practice.

Chris


CueTable Help

 
JamisonNeu said:
I can draw the ball as far as anyone I ever saw besides Larry Nevel...Still work on his record from time to time..
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now I'm curious.. whats the record?? how is the shot set up?



JamisonNeu said:
Well there is also this way of looking at it...No shot in pool is to extreme...shots that seem extreme may not be that bad at all if you take the time to try mastering them.
Click to expand...

I get where you are coming from here..

I'm curious how much of your top stroke you use on extreme "game" shots

just to throw out a situation.. CB on head string OB in jaws of pocket.

draw back to head of table and back to center..

I can't see a situation where more stroke than that would ever be useful in a game sense..


I respect your stoke and appreciate your input..
 
Well the award was from trying my luck in the World Championship of trick shots some years ago. I placed 5th overall the year I am talking about, but they award people for each segment of the tourney. Like for instance. If I place dead last overall, it is still possible for me to have won a discipline such as the stroke discipline. I have won the Draw the bank the stroke the jump and the masse. I kept winning the masse and still five years later hold the records in the that part of the trick shot sport. That is how I got the nickname.

Anyway my best draw on a nine foot was from the diamond closest the corner 8 ft back to short (rail) back to other short to middle very best is three quarters of the third table. I have seen Larry Nevel get three full tables. If this makes since....

My best masse was cue ball at that half diamond from corner. straight up and down the table. When the cue ball got to the short rail 8 and half ft away it tugged the rail, and stopped around the one diamond coming back up table...

The maximum distance I have done with a masse shot from that spot is 3 tables, and about six inches short of the middle...I think on a ten foot table i can get 4, it is strange to watch the ball I can hit this too good. It will still have spin when it hits the bottom rail so it is counter productive...I hope what I have wrote is legible.

Unless you count the masse I shoot at Valley Forge that goes 60 feet out and 60 feet back on the floor. I think that is probably my distance record...lol I also did the entire length of valley forge bottom level wall to wall...my guess that was about 375 ft...If I had more ft it would be more...
 
softshot said:
now I'm curious.. whats the record?? how is the shot set up?







I'm curious how much of your top stroke you use on extreme "game" shots

just to throw out a situation.. CB on head string OB in jaws of pocket.

draw back to head of table and back to center..



QUOTE]




I missed this question. I think that if the stroke that he shows in the above diagram is "extreme" then this is about one third of my stroke. The best days of my life I could run a hundred balls without hitting one full table straight in shot where I need to draw back the whole table. The game of pool should be played in a manner that it is the last resort. the best players cut 45% shots and play top or bottom with one tip of spin. Some even avoid the rails and the other balls if they can. It is the way it is. When I am using my stroke to get around it is because the table is very slow, and crooked.

The best I have seen is three tables. The only reason to learn how to draw a ball three tables, is to be able to do half of three with half your best stroke. When needed it is there...
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