How tight is too tight for cloth?

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A room I play in all the time is re-doing the tables in Simonis. It's so tight you can't push the cloth together at all, every place I've been to you could at least pinch a bit together in a little mound. The balls seemed to roll for too long to me so I checked it, tried to get a little loose cloth between my fingers, and nothing, fingers just slid off the cloth, it did not move at all.

Is that too tight? The guy doing the work told the owner that it will loosen up due to humidity.
 
I install cloth so tight, you can hear the slate groaning, that's so that when the cloth does loosen up a bit, it's still tight. Tight cloth also has less miscues marks on it, because the cloth can't wrinkle up in front of the tip when a miscue takes place, which is how the cloth gets them little nick cut marks in it.
 
Hi,

That is my guy Josh doing the work on the bed cloths. He is installing the cloth to the correct index specified in the Simonis DVDs which Glen and I produced five years ago.

To answer your question, the cloth is NOT to to tight. It is installed in a rectangular pattern, measured and repeated on every table. The old cloth was installed without an index and was loose. That's why the tables played slower and inconsistently. We've also installed new cushions (Diamond) on the seven tables we've serviced this week. High humidity will cause the cloth to relax a bit but never enough for the cloth to gather under your fingers or hand. I promise you'll never see that with our installs.

To your next point, "can the cloth be installed to tight"? Yes it can. Simonis cloth will get white stretch shadows in the rails and bed cloths if over stretched. That's why we mark the cloths with exact measurements for the pocket slack, and bed cloth stretch. Tight, even rectangle, with no shadow lines and stays tight is a properly installed Simonis bed cloth.

If you have any questions about how the cloth should be installed, Simonis has a DVD showing the exact process. $29.95 Oh, by the way I'm the guy in the DVD for bed cloths, Oh, by the way, Glen Real King Cobra, is the guy in the rail cloth DVD. Most people have never played on Simonis cloth the way it's supposed to play. That's why Glen came up with the indexing system for bed cloths, so every mechanic could install it properly, table after table.

You'll get used to the additional speed of the tables in time. What I hope you'll appreciate is the consistency of the tables, one to the next.

Jay Spielberg
 
One other point. If the owner of the pool room had been satisfied with the work being performed by the previous company, he would not have solicited us to come in and do the recovery and cushion work.

The work at the Cafe is very typical of most of the service work we see in the field. With Simonis offering a demonstrated spec, for how THEY want the table covered with their material, there's no excuses any more. The information has been out there for five years now.

Jay
 
Wow, has it been 5 years since the indexing system led to the DVD?
Time flies.
 
It has?....:thumbup:. Jay 's da man, and he's 100% correct....it's been that long, really?:embarrassed2:
 
Hi,

That is my guy Josh doing the work on the bed cloths. He is installing the cloth to the correct index specified in the Simonis DVDs which Glen and I produced five years ago.

To answer your question, the cloth is NOT to to tight. It is installed in a rectangular pattern, measured and repeated on every table. The old cloth was installed without an index and was loose. That's why the tables played slower and inconsistently. We've also installed new cushions (Diamond) on the seven tables we've serviced this week. High humidity will cause the cloth to relax a bit but never enough for the cloth to gather under your fingers or hand. I promise you'll never see that with our installs.

To your next point, "can the cloth be installed to tight"? Yes it can. Simonis cloth will get white stretch shadows in the rails and bed cloths if over stretched. That's why we mark the cloths with exact measurements for the pocket slack, and bed cloth stretch. Tight, even rectangle, with no shadow lines and stays tight is a properly installed Simonis bed cloth.

If you have any questions about how the cloth should be installed, Simonis has a DVD showing the exact process. $29.95 Oh, by the way I'm the guy in the DVD for bed cloths, Oh, by the way, Glen Real King Cobra, is the guy in the rail cloth DVD. Most people have never played on Simonis cloth the way it's supposed to play. That's why Glen came up with the indexing system for bed cloths, so every mechanic could install it properly, table after table.

You'll get used to the additional speed of the tables in time. What I hope you'll appreciate is the consistency of the tables, one to the next.

Jay Spielberg

Thanks for the info, the tables were done well, just the players don't like the forever roll, which should slow down eventually. I just have not run across tables quite this tightly stretched and that along with the cueball traveling long made me wonder if things were done to spec. Hopefully in a few months the tables will break in a bit and not be so speedy, I hate rolling balls in and with a fast table that is pretty much the only way to play. Pockets play huge right now also, I know that shots that should have missed have been sliding in, can't wait for the cloth to break in a bit and stop doing that.

Appreciate the explanation especially first hand from the installers.
 
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The problem is most pool tables have the cloth installed incorrectly and players think it's correct, because that's all they ever play on. Then when they're recovered correctly, players think they're wrong because they play different than what they're use to. So, what it boils down to, is that this industry has been based on bad work for so long, players have no idea as to how a pool table is suppose to play correctly. Everyone that plays pool on Valley pool tables think they play right, because they have nothing to compare them to. Then along comes Diamond coin op pool tables, which play much better than Valleys ever have....and they don't know how to play on them, because they don't play like the Valley tables they're so use to playing on....so they want to complain about the Diamonds not playing right. I understand how change can fool people, but those that have pulled the wool over your eyes are all those working on the pool tables in the past, making you believe the work they were doing was correct, when in fact, it's been wrong all along.;)
 
Glen,

Yes it's been five years now since the DVDs were produced! With thousands of copies being sold, it shocks me that so few mechanics are using the indexing, pocket slacking, or the rectangular techniques demonstrated in the bed cloth DVD. Furthermore, the rail recovery work you demonstrated in the rail covering DVD is even more out of spec.... Wrinkled, dimpled, stretch shadowed rails are the norm rather than the exception.

It goes directly to the point and motivation Ivan had for making the DVDs in the first place, put the correct information out there and address the struggles most installers have puting Simonis on properly and the problems of loose cloth, slow tables, shadow lines and indented cushions will go away. I can tell you first hand, that I rarely see a bed cloth with any index marks, done by service people in the northeast. The one thing I have seen, the room owners and private clubs are learning to demand that the tables be done to the Simonis specs.

The customers are paying a premium price to get the very best cloth (Simonis) money can buy, it's only right that it be installed correctly. Simonis is the only company I know of that has provided such a detailed set of directions and specifications to insure their cloth is installed correctly. Maybe we should have marketed the DVDs to the pool table owners rather than the service people. If the customers demanded the cloth be installed to spec, the installers would have no option but to do it correctly.

I know I'll probably get some flack from the service people that can stretch the cloth tight and make the table play fast without indexing. My argument to them is how do you explain and demonstrate "tight". Without measurements you are guessing. Furthermore, how do you get multiple tables in a poolroom or club to play the same consistently?

Our motivation in the production of the DVDs was to make it easier for the installer to do the bed cloths and rail covering to spec. While Simonis is a more exacting product to work with (less stretch) It doesn't have to be "harder". Just a different process than other cloth. If you can install Simonis correctly, you can install any cloth.

I'm actually gratified, that Hang the 9 would notice such a difference in the speed and play of the tables at his home poolroom. It just goes to show how much difference a proper install can make in the play of the tables. I'm sure Ivan (president of Simonis) would be happy also.

Jay Spielberg
A-1 Billiards
 
The problem is most pool tables have the cloth installed incorrectly and players think it's correct, because that's all they ever play on. Then when they're recovered correctly, players think they're wrong because they play different than what they're use to. So, what it boils down to, is that this industry has been based on bad work for so long, players have no idea as to how a pool table is suppose to play correctly. Everyone that plays pool on Valley pool tables think they play right, because they have nothing to compare them to. Then along comes Diamond coin op pool tables, which play much better than Valleys ever have....and they don't know how to play on them, because they don't play like the Valley tables they're so use to playing on....so they want to complain about the Diamonds not playing right. I understand how change can fool people, but those that have pulled the wool over your eyes are all those working on the pool tables in the past, making you believe the work they were doing was correct, when in fact, it's been wrong all along.;)

Do Diamonds actually play "correct" or do they play to the new industry standard of "correct"? I have only been playing pool for 4 years now, but when you see old tables the cloth seems to be much thicker or "piled", kinda like they need a shave, causing them to play slower. You hear some of the guys who have been playing pool forever talking about how fast the tables play now and that you do not need a stroke to play pool like in the old days. Are these the same conditions Mosconi played on? 4 1/2" pockets are the norm now but it seems many of the older tables came with pockets close to 5", is this part of a newer standard that goes with faster tables? When did the 4 1/2" pockets and fast tables become "correct"? Dont get me wrong, my GC is set up with tight pockets and cloth to play fast and I like it, I am just curious about when the standard began or changed to what is considered correct today.
 
Do Diamonds actually play "correct" or do they play to the new industry standard of "correct"? I have only been playing pool for 4 years now, but when you see old tables the cloth seems to be much thicker or "piled", kinda like they need a shave, causing them to play slower. You hear some of the guys who have been playing pool forever talking about how fast the tables play now and that you do not need a stroke to play pool like in the old days. Are these the same conditions Mosconi played on? 4 1/2" pockets are the norm now but it seems many of the older tables came with pockets close to 5", is this part of a newer standard that goes with faster tables? When did the 4 1/2" pockets and fast tables become "correct"? Dont get me wrong, my GC is set up with tight pockets and cloth to play fast and I like it, I am just curious about when the standard began or changed to what is considered correct today.

I don't know that "playing correct" would be the term I'd refer to when I'd describe the changes in this industry that have been taking place over the last 30+ years. I look at it as more of an evolutionary change. Pool players, cloth, cushions, table designs....have all evolved, partly due to the fact of changes in this industry production wise. Cushions designed to play on tables 30+ years ago are no longer made today, yet the tables are still in service, but are for the most part in bad need of repair.

A good example of old vs new was when Dodge first produced the Viper, they wanted it to be a throw back car to the muscle car era when cars were all compared as ground pounding, quick as hell thrill rides off the line, but someone at Dodge also had the bright idea that not only should the Viper have the horse power of the good ol' days, the care should also handle like they did back then, so they opted to install drum breaks all the way around instead of disk breaks, only to find out later that was a mistake, seeing how everyone driving all the other muscle cars at the time, could stop them in half the distance needed to stop the Viper...without break fade. The public had spoken with their complaints and safety concerns, and Dodge redesigned the break system and brought it up to date with disk breaks.

This industry has changed, customers have decided to start using cloth to recover their pool tables with that for a little more expense, would outlast what they had been using by 2-3 times longer, so the math worked out to use longer lasting, better playing worsted woolen cloths instead of the woven cloths of normal use. Not only did the tables play faster, cloth last longer, but the.players were liking the fact fact that they didn't have to have such a big stroke to get the cue ball around the table. But, this change was only the beginning. Because tables were becoming much easier to play on, being so much faster and all, the players didn't have to shoot as had to pocket the balls, so balls missing the pockets started to decline, players were becoming better and better all the time. I still feel to this day, the players were always much better at the time than they realized, but couldn't reach their full potential because the equipment they were playing on at the time was in fact holding their game back from better than they currently were.

But, making balls much easier brought about players complaints that the pockets were to big, 5" and bigger corner pockets were the norm back then, but the players with the big strokes were no longer staying ahead of the competition, because it wasn't taking a big stroke to win anymore, all a player had to do to win was make the easy shots, which were being made much easier by the cloth being played on.

It only takes one person to start a change in this industry, if they can gain the backing of the public to support that change. Sure tight pocketed tables have been around for years and years, but only here and their, someone's home, one or two tables in a pool room here and their, but never has a manufacturer stood up and asked the question of all manufacturers like Greg Sullivan has, and the question was....why can't we have a standardized set of pocket specs to play Professional pool on, instead of every tournament being played on equipment that can vary by so much, from location to location! No one wanted to hear what Greg had to say, and could care less, so...Greg was forced to bring about change on his own, so he started Diamond Billiards Manufacturing on his own, by the way, that's the short version:thumbup:
 
Well, now came the problem brought about by change, and believe it or not, Brunswick made one of the biggest mistakes in manufacturing that actually helped to create change. They tried changing their cushions in mid production of the GC3s' which resulted in a manufacturing desaster, just about every GC3 produced, the cushion's turned rock hard, which had to be fixed, needed to be replaced....bad! Well, that was a huge problem for the service industry except for a very few that had been in this industry long enough to know how to change cushions. Cloth installers, which is what they were at the time, only they were called pool table mechanic's, we're now trying to replace cushions, and most had no idea what in the hell they were doing, but they had no problem with getting paid to do a job for pay. Brunswick did what they could, the sent new cushions out to room owners that had bad cushions to back up their warranty, but in no way was Brunswick going to pay to have the job performed by someone that knew how to do the job correcty, nor send someone out from Brunswick to perform the task. So, the industry full of cloth changers took over, replacing dead cushions with....any cushions they could get the right price on, profile???? what in the hell is that? Pocket angles, down angles, facings,...well, it don't really matter, it's just a pool table! But customers also threw an upset in this industry as well, they also wanted the pockets tightened up when the cushion's were being replace, so what did the cloth installers do? They didn't know anything about extending the rails at the time, so they'd install the cushions, cut them off at the end of the rail just like they were originally, the started adding double and triple facings in order to shrink the pocket opening.

So, what do we have next out of this forced evolutionary change? An industry full of installers that couldn't make a mistake installing a woven wool cloth, to an industry full of installers that are to lazy to learn how to install the worsted woolen cloths correctly! An industry full of installers that never really had to know how to replace cushions, to an industry full of installers that have no idea what cushions fit what rails, and an industry full of manufacturers selling pool tables that come with cushions that have to be replaced right out of the box! And an industry full of cushion manufacturers that don't feel the need to supply instructions on how to install their cushions, or even to which rails their us ions fit.

Until Jay and I took the time to produce some training DVDs' about how to correctly install the bed cloths and how to correctly install the rail cloth, no cloth manufacturer was interested in providing that information, because even they don't know what's correct, so they're not much help either.

It's an uphill battle to change this industry that's for sure. I have home owners calling me all the time, Jay does too, thanking us for the DVDs' so they could do the work themselves, because the local installers won't take the time to learn how to do this work correctly. You can't even get instructions from the slate manufacturers on how to correcty level slates, or from the table manufactures for that matter!!!
 
Do Diamonds actually play "correct" or do they play to the new industry standard of "correct"? I have only been playing pool for 4 years now, but when you see old tables the cloth seems to be much thicker or "piled", kinda like they need a shave, causing them to play slower. You hear some of the guys who have been playing pool forever talking about how fast the tables play now and that you do not need a stroke to play pool like in the old days. Are these the same conditions Mosconi played on? 4 1/2" pockets are the norm now but it seems many of the older tables came with pockets close to 5", is this part of a newer standard that goes with faster tables? When did the 4 1/2" pockets and fast tables become "correct"? Dont get me wrong, my GC is set up with tight pockets and cloth to play fast and I like it, I am just curious about when the standard began or changed to what is considered correct today.

To say the Diamond pool tables play "correct" is to also say Diamond can't make their tables play even better because there is nothing more they can do, and that just isn't the case. I will say they play better than any other production built pool table produced today. It's not to hard to get a table to play at about 95% of what it's capable of, but to get that last 5% and call it perfect, I do t know that any table can be produced to a at 100% perfection....there's a lot of deciding factors that can get in the way of reaching them goals, humidity being one of them factors.
 
Cloth

A lot of people are shocked at how tight the cloth can be installed by a well trained installer. People think that diamonds are fast tables.. It's because diamond puts the cloth on tight and proper at the factory.



:woot::dance:





Rob.M
 
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question Glen. So the current fast/tight pocket tables were mainly brought on by a change to more durable cloth which also happened to play faster is what I gather. When did Simonis 860 become the standard cloth for American pool tables? I am guessing since Simonis is in Belgium that it was originally a snooker table cloth that made its way onto pool tables?
 
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question Glen. So the current fast/tight pocket tables were mainly brought on by a change to more durable cloth which also happened to play faster is what I gather. When did Simonis 860 become the standard cloth for American pool tables? I am guessing since Simonis is in Belgium that it was originally a snooker table cloth that made its way onto pool tables?

I pioneered the Simonis 760 cloth, in which yes, it was a snooker cloth, in the Pacific Northwest 30+ years ago, keep in mind Simonis has been making cloth for over 300 years.

The reason I switched to using Simonis was because I could see with the first table I ever installed it on, it was going to change history in the pocket pool industey, and I wanted to be out front with it, instead of following someone else promoting it. In taking a closer look at the worsted woolen industry, I also came across the Granito' family of cloth, in which I pioneered that brand of worsted woolen cloth as well. Pool was going to change and nothing was going to stop it, both cloths played hands down better than any cloth I had ever played on or had seen before up until then. The one drawback to the worsted wool cloths was that they also exposed a lot more problems with this industry such as inferior cushions, bad machining on slates, second rate balls, and uneven pool tables....so in a sence, everything in this industry was about to change starting 30+ years ago....only a few back then even knew it was coming:thumbup:
 
Do Diamonds actually play "correct" or do they play to the new industry standard of "correct"? I have only been playing pool for 4 years now, but when you see old tables the cloth seems to be much thicker or "piled", kinda like they need a shave, causing them to play slower. You hear some of the guys who have been playing pool forever talking about how fast the tables play now and that you do not need a stroke to play pool like in the old days. Are these the same conditions Mosconi played on? 4 1/2" pockets are the norm now but it seems many of the older tables came with pockets close to 5", is this part of a newer standard that goes with faster tables? When did the 4 1/2" pockets and fast tables become "correct"? Dont get me wrong, my GC is set up with tight pockets and cloth to play fast and I like it, I am just curious about when the standard began or changed to what is considered correct today.

In Mosconi's heyday, the tables he played on would have been 10 footers with big pockets that played even bigger because of the opening angle. The tables would have been covered in a directional felt, a felt where the nap wasn't random like in modern cloths, but all leaned one direction. The felt would have been installed so that the nap ran from the head of the table to the foot of the table. That is the reason you see old timers always brushing the table from the head to the foot.
 
I pioneered the Simonis 760 cloth, in which yes, it was a snooker cloth, in the Pacific Northwest 30+ years ago, keep in mind Simonis has been making cloth for over 300 years.

The reason I switched to using Simonis was because I could see with the first table I ever installed it on, it was going to change history in the pocket pool industey, and I wanted to be out front with it, instead of following someone else promoting it. In taking a closer look at the worsted woolen industry, I also came across the Granito' family of cloth, in which I pioneered that brand of worsted woolen cloth as well. Pool was going to change and nothing was going to stop it, both cloths played hands down better than any cloth I had ever played on or had seen before up until then. The one drawback to the worsted wool cloths was that they also exposed a lot more problems with this industry such as inferior cushions, bad machining on slates, second rate balls, and uneven pool tables....so in a sence, everything in this industry was about to change starting 30+ years ago....only a few back then even knew it was coming:thumbup:

Glen,

I don't know about the Pacific Northwest, but here in the Northeast Simonis has been offered on pool tables for over 100 years. If you want to
verify this check out the Brunswick Jewel from 1896 offering Simonis in the Brunswick catalogue.

Simonis has grown in popularity for pool table use tremendously in the last 25 years for several reasons, IMHO. First and foremost is their leading roll in sponsoring tournament professional pool. Second, Diamond using Simonis on their tables almost exclusively. Third, rotation games like nine ball that require far more movement of the cue ball to stay in line than straight pool, are more well suited to a faster table. Fourth, Simonis is very durable, many of the rooms we were covering with Brunsco, Stevens and Mali cloth switched just for the additional wear the could expect from Simonis. I think the biggest reason for the increased popularity of Simonis, is that people like playing on a faster table. Many customers equate faster with a better install and a more enjoyable experience.

Here in the Northeast, Simonis was never used as a Snooker cloth, unless it was the Simonis 4000 english green snooker cloth. We saw most of our Simonis being used on Carom tables and the occasional pool table. Keep in mind 30 years ago you didn't have the option of the 860 or 860 HR. It was 760 only. Which is very fast for most pool tables. When Greg Sullivan worked with Simonis to produce a slightly slower version of the 760 we got what most folks are using today 860. This also went along way towards popularizing Simonis.

The playing equipment continues to evolve, from cues, to cloth, to chalk, to balls, to lighting. All of which, should make the game more consistent and enjoyable. One day soon, perhaps we could have a standard for all tournament table conditions? Most pool players prefer playing conditions they are accustomed to. Without a "standard" it's very hard to say right or wrong. The standard would have to be based on measurements of speed, level, banking angles, pocket opening size, slate depth, and other factors such as lighting levels, humidity and room conditions. What amazes me is how quickly the top professional players adapt to the various playing conditions and how slowly amature pool players adjust to changing conditions. I guess to some degree, that factor will always be with the game of pool, no matter what the standard.

Jay
 
Glen,
What amazes me is how quickly the top professional players adapt to the various playing conditions and how slowly amature pool players adjust to changing conditions. I guess to some degree, that factor will always be with the game of pool, no matter what the standard.

Jay

For reasons unknown to me tournaments in WI are almost never played on 9' tables, even when the room has them. Anyway, it seems most of the better league/tournament players prefer playing tournaments on Diamonds while the lower players shy away from Diamonds and prefer Valley's.
 
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