How tight is too tight for cloth?

As was mentioned earlier in this thread, I have always had the perspective that GC's just "played slower" overall than Diamonds. I had Jack Zimmerman install my GC and my opinion has changed. I just think I have been playing on poorly installed GC my whole life with cloth that was loose. My GC plays just as fast as any Diamond I have played on. You top tier mechanics are hurting Diamond sales by installing other tables properly! ha

Ian
 
Jay, one more thing about those tables, how can they be setup so the pockets don't spit balls back on the table when hit center pocket? Especially the sides. Ball goes right in the middle of the pocket and the back of it just bounces it back on to the table. Happened before the new cloth and happening after. I did notice that the pockets no longer wiggle though so that's a plus, but I though that would fix the pockets, did not.

A-1 billiards said:
Hi,

That is my guy Josh doing the work on the bed cloths. He is installing the cloth to the correct index specified in the Simonis DVDs which Glen and I produced five years ago.

To answer your question, the cloth is NOT to to tight. It is installed in a rectangular pattern, measured and repeated on every table. The old cloth was installed without an index and was loose. That's why the tables played slower and inconsistently. We've also installed new cushions (Diamond) on the seven tables we've serviced this week. High humidity will cause the cloth to relax a bit but never enough for the cloth to gather under your fingers or hand. I promise you'll never see that with our installs.

To your next point, "can the cloth be installed to tight"? Yes it can. Simonis cloth will get white stretch shadows in the rails and bed cloths if over stretched. That's why we mark the cloths with exact measurements for the pocket slack, and bed cloth stretch. Tight, even rectangle, with no shadow lines and stays tight is a properly installed Simonis bed cloth.

If you have any questions about how the cloth should be installed, Simonis has a DVD showing the exact process. $29.95 Oh, by the way I'm the guy in the DVD for bed cloths, Oh, by the way, Glen Real King Cobra, is the guy in the rail cloth DVD. Most people have never played on Simonis cloth the way it's supposed to play. That's why Glen came up with the indexing system for bed cloths, so every mechanic could install it properly, table after table.

You'll get used to the additional speed of the tables in time. What I hope you'll appreciate is the consistency of the tables, one to the next.

Jay Spielberg
Click to expand...
 
hang-the-9 said:
Jay, one more thing about those tables, how can they be setup so the pockets don't spit balls back on the table when hit center pocket? Especially the sides. Ball goes right in the middle of the pocket and the back of it just bounces it back on to the table. Happened before the new cloth and happening after. I did notice that the pockets no longer wiggle though so that's a plus, but I though that would fix the pockets, did not.
Click to expand...

Great question! The Brunswick Ventura tables at the Cafe are really a "home style furniture table" meaning, they use a #6 iron over a leather net pocket. Due to the factory drilled holes in the rails, which accept the ear of the number 6 iron, the pocket sits slightly low. This causes the curve in the metal under the leather to deflect the ball forward rather than down. This problem can also be caused by the leather front trim being to tight around the radius of the back of the pocket. At the Cafe. the issue is the former rather than the latter. The pockets are more than 10 years old and the leather is fully broken in.

When I come across leather net pockets that sit flush with the rail caps, the problem of ball struck "just right" and rejecting straight back is common. If you look at the exact same pocket on a Diamond home table, you'll notice the top cover of the leather pocket sits slightly proud of the rail cap. This allows the balls to hit lower on the bottom radius sending them down rather that forward.

The fix for this problem would involve plugging the factory rail holes and re-drilling them 1/8 inch higher so the pocket sits slightly above the rail caps. This is a lot of work, time consuming and requires a horizontal drilling set up on a lathe. By securing the pockets properly (tight and straight) we are making this issue worse. We are actually pulling the rear of the pocket down even more than they were when they we loose.

This is what happens when you try to use a pool table designed for home use in a commercial environment. New leather pockets with a bit more leather padding over the irons would help, but in time these same issues would develop. The old number 6 irons and the twentieth century irons used on the old Brunswicks had shallower radius and sat proud of the rail cap. You rarely saw balls ejected straight back out of the pocket.

Sorry for rambling.

Jay
 
A-1 billiards said:
Great question! The Brunswick Ventura tables at the Cafe are really a "home style furniture table" meaning, they use a #6 iron over a leather net pocket. Due to the factory drilled holes in the rails, which accept the ear of the number 6 iron, the pocket sits slightly low. This causes the curve in the metal under the leather to deflect the ball forward rather than down. This problem can also be caused by the leather front trim being to tight around the radius of the back of the pocket. At the Cafe. the issue is the former rather than the latter. The pockets are more than 10 years old and the leather is fully broken in.

When I come across leather net pockets that sit flush with the rail caps, the problem of ball struck "just right" and rejecting straight back is common. If you look at the exact same pocket on a Diamond home table, you'll notice the top cover of the leather pocket sits slightly proud of the rail cap. This allows the balls to hit lower on the bottom radius sending them down rather that forward.

The fix for this problem would involve plugging the factory rail holes and re-drilling them 1/8 inch higher so the pocket sits slightly above the rail caps. This is a lot of work, time consuming and requires a horizontal drilling set up on a lathe. By securing the pockets properly (tight and straight) we are making this issue worse. We are actually pulling the rear of the pocket down even more than they were when they we loose.

This is what happens when you try to use a pool table designed for home use in a commercial environment. New leather pockets with a bit more leather padding over the irons would help, but in time these same issues would develop. The old number 6 irons and the twentieth century irons used on the old Brunswicks had shallower radius and sat proud of the rail cap. You rarely saw balls ejected straight back out of the pocket.

Sorry for rambling.

Jay
Click to expand...

Good explanation Jay, most people never know that as they think for the most part, a pool table is a pool table.
 
Glen,

Almost all the manufacturers building home style tables with leather net pockets use the number 6 irons. Unfortunately, the raw irons are very crude and poorly manufactured compared to the original castings. The other factor is that the modern manufacturers are using a thinner rail cap without the captured brass sleeve to save time and money. This creates a situation whereby the horizontal holes in the caps are drilled to low to protect the rail cap from splitting. Diamond home tables use a thicker rail than most of the tables on the market (1 3/4 inch vs 1 1/2 inch) the extra thickness allows the pocket to fit higher relative to the playing surface. You also have the advantage of using K55 profile cushions.

Commercial tables for pool rooms, home tables for homes.

Jay
 
Glen,


I'm still waiting for you conical number 3 irons we talked about 7 years ago. That would be the real solution to this issue on all these home tables. The best part would be the years of retro fit work.

No more split out ends on the rail bottoms, no more cross threaded ears, no more loose twisted or tipped pockets. I think your pocket design would be fantastic if you could get it into production.

Jay
 
Exactly what are these pocket irons you speak of? I have heard of them and thought they were only used on antique tables. Are there pics that I can see of them somewhere?
 
Thanks for the reply Moonshine. So the "iron" is basically like the corner casting (and side pocket) underneath the leather.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top