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How To Get A Really Good Player
- Thread starter Sharivari
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As I said, sheer will and determination without genetic advantages with beat the socks off of pure genetics without sheer will and determination.
Imo, that's why we have seen SO MANY young players show up, play AWESOME and then poof, gone like a fart in the wind.....:
All genetic potential but NO will and determination to reach that potential.
ANYONE that does not understand that has issues in the pool game as well as their thought process.
Natural talent + sheer will and determination to thrive is what separates the pros from myself and everyone else on the planet.
But to say natural talent rules by itself would be IMO a bad bet.
I will always bet on the player that grinds out drill after drill, lesson after lesson while also studying the game from every angle in order to get as close as they can get to being great........ over someone that has all the talent in the world but refuses to do the work required by ANYONE (regardless of talent or not) to be a good or even great player.
Talent is like money, no matter how much a person may have they can still die broke just as easily as someone that never had money at all.
It's not "just what you have", it's more "what you do with it" that matters in the long run.
Again, jmo...
Rake
I'll give you a good example of two players that are very well known in the PA/NJ/DE area. Josh Brothers and Matt Krah. They grew up together in DE, same age, traveled to all the tournaments together. Both were A players by the time they were 15 or 16. Fast forward 15 or 20 years and they are both in their 30's. Matt plays every single tournament in the area (and has since he was 15), and also travels nationwide for the big events. He studies the game like crazy. He signed up with ProOne aiming and has been using it for the past 5 years. Josh on the other hand has been out of the scene for the past 10 years. He pops up at a tournament once a year now, if that.
Josh was the favorite when they were both 14. Now that they are both in their 30's Josh will still be the heavy betting favorite. Even though he plays 1/10th of the time that Matt does.
Josh simply has more talent, and even though he does 1/10th the work Matt does, he can probably give Matt the 7 in 10 ball and beat him. All the practice and dedication in the world can't make you jump to the level of another player if he has better genetics for the game than you do.
PS, I'm not knocking either player. I've known them since they were teens. I'm using them because they are well known and all the Philly players know their speed and history well.
From the top top players, another example is Mike D. and Oscar D. Oscar works his ass off, and has since he was a kid under the coaching of his father. Once he left the nest, he has traveled all over the country, for over 10 years now. And he has played in every single big tournament that whole time. He is seasoned. He has been in the highest pressure situations. He has had the best coaching, from Mosconi cup.
Mike D has been inactive except a tournament here and there for the past 5 years or so. He stays in his back yard. Does not travel to compete against equal competition. Only travels once in a blue moon now.
Yet if Mike and Oscar played a gambling sessions, not a single person in the action room would bet even money on Oscar.
Another case of a player that puts in way more work, but has a bit less natural talent than another player who puts in way less work. There is no way to make up for that talent difference.
Mike D has been inactive except a tournament here and there for the past 5 years or so. He stays in his back yard. Does not travel to compete against equal competition. Only travels once in a blue moon now.
Yet if Mike and Oscar played a gambling sessions, not a single person in the action room would bet even money on Oscar.
Another case of a player that puts in way more work, but has a bit less natural talent than another player who puts in way less work. There is no way to make up for that talent difference.
Maybe Mike does practice better way? There could be plenty of reasons why Oscar can´t keep speed of Mike.
Could be bad coach. Could be that all time playing with tournaments and travel actually prevents progress with playing level.
Mike could practice all time alone in home.. etc..
It is not so black and white IMO.
I too know exceptions like that. But, that is what it is, an exception to the rule.
Btw, I know of Josh as well. Yep, he would be a beast. Sad for pool that talent like his is not realized.
Rake
I see both sides but, I'm inclined to say the same as you, "it's not so black and white"...
I'm of the belief, through reliable sources that Mike practices much, much more than he discloses. It's his business, but why he chooses to do so doesn't make sense to me since everyone knows his speed is extreme no matter how little he plays.
I could see it as a tactic if he was like myself, a shortstop and wanted people to think his game was now a weaker "A" to "A-" level player trying to gain an edge.
Also:
HUGE difference between a pro laying off and staying strong..........than a complete beginner with A TON OF TALENT rising to pro ranks without tons of work before hand.
I just don't see it happening and if it did......they would not last long. We've seen it with flash in the pans in the past.
I couldn't agree with this more. Obviously on a much lower level I find the same thing to be true for myself. There are guys from 10 years ago that I know for a fact left the game and they hit balls for a month and still reclaim their spot in the pecking order. A lot of this just is what it is. The advantage of playing a lot is your focus, repeatability/execution, and confidence. None of that gives you the strategy and creativity to be top flight. There are a ton of guys who don't miss very much...but so what?
Stop it man, Mike D. can't wake up out of bed and beat Oscar, he needs to be in stroke for that. High gear though I'm not sure any American besides Shane can do what Mike D. can. I also don't think this makes your argument any less valid, I think you are dead on the money. If both are in pool playing shape Mike D is a heavy betting favorite for sure.
Here are some previous related threads:
Sam Lambert was going to do the 10,000 hour thing. Here is his thread:
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=406778
Here is an update:
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=427846
In the second thread (post 126) I relate the story of a student I had who was going to try the same thing.
Anyone interested in the nature/nurture debate should read the Sports Gene by a Sports Illustrated editor: https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=406778
It has amazing stories on both sides of the discussion. Here is what Malcolm Gladwell (the 10000-hour guy) had to say about it:
Sam Lambert was going to do the 10,000 hour thing. Here is his thread:
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=406778
Here is an update:
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=427846
In the second thread (post 126) I relate the story of a student I had who was going to try the same thing.
Anyone interested in the nature/nurture debate should read the Sports Gene by a Sports Illustrated editor: https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=406778
It has amazing stories on both sides of the discussion. Here is what Malcolm Gladwell (the 10000-hour guy) had to say about it:
“I can’t remember a book that has fascinated, educated—and provoked—me as much as The Sports Gene. Epstein has changed forever the way we measure elite athletes and their achievements.”
—MALCOLM GLADWELL, author and New Yorker writer
—MALCOLM GLADWELL, author and New Yorker writer
I get your point, but I'll take the better player over the grinder. The grinder, for all his practice and intent, may not be the better.
I'll give a good golf analogy. In more than one interview, Jack Nicklaus has said he didn't practice as much as many players in both his era, or the current era. It didn't appeal to him, nor did he need it. He had more natural talent, and at 18 majors, I think his place as the greatest is still pretty solid.
You've gotten into an area though, maybe not intentionally, that there is a difference between natural talent and heart. Player A may have more talent than Player B, but Player B tends to beat him because he's got more heart. That does happen, doesn't it.
I would say, given a relatively coordinated individual, several years of hard practice in pool, along with some competition, should get him to at least a B level. The hard thing for the "nurture" folks to admit is that no more is guaranteed. From about 50 years of observation, some people progress much quicker than others at this sport, with negligible difference in practice.
Life is not even, nor is it fair. That's the bottom line.
All the best,
WW
Thanks Bob, just got the audio book.
It's ALL mindset. Natural talent is a naturally good mindset.
The examples of people being able to not play for 10 years and come back are valid. We've all seen them. I quit for 10 years and just started back up again about a year ago. I don't have my highest gear back yet - but I can beat almost every single person that I could beat when I quit. One got really good. The rest stayed roughly the same relative to me.
The key thing about pool is that people already play at the level they want to play at. That's it. You can practice your butt off, get to the pool hall and play tournaments all the time but if you don't see yourself as being a better player - you won't be.
We all know players that have been missing the same back cuts down the rails for 20 years. Why? Because part of their identity is that they miss *those* shots. That's it.
Pool players see themselves playing at a certain level, work their ass off to get there and then stay there the rest of their lives - unless they are able make a mental shift.
So you want to play better? Visualize how you want to play. Own it. Internalize it. The path will reveal itself once you see it. You will find the way to play at that level.
Everybody reading: How would you describe your level of play?
Write down your answer. Your first instinctive answer. Did you write down: Can beat everyone at the bar? Competes in tournaments and wins a few? Good regional player?
Think about your answer. Do you practice your ass off all the time so you can be a good local player? If so then stop. You already have achieved your goal.
The reason Shane wins so much is because he knows he is the best player and because he knows he is the best player he practices like he believes the best player should practice. It's a feedback loop. When one part is stagnant, the feedback is just noise. Not progress.
I know a player who plays very infrequently. When he does play though he can show up and win a tournament with a strong field including pros. And he does this virtually every time he comes out and plays.
I talked to him about it one time and he said "Pool is easy. I can just see how to hit the shot to make it and so I do. All I have to do is make the balls and I win the money. It's easy."
He sees the reward and isn't screwed up by all the negative thoughts. He assumes he is going to win because he sees the way to win. His mindset is so strong that he sees himself as the best and just believes that he can dust off his cue and beat everybody with a little bit of warmup. And he does. That's natural talent. Natural mindset talent.
People who start younger have a better natural mindset because children aren't as negative when they miss or lose so they tend to just laugh it off and try harder next time.
The examples of people being able to not play for 10 years and come back are valid. We've all seen them. I quit for 10 years and just started back up again about a year ago. I don't have my highest gear back yet - but I can beat almost every single person that I could beat when I quit. One got really good. The rest stayed roughly the same relative to me.
The key thing about pool is that people already play at the level they want to play at. That's it. You can practice your butt off, get to the pool hall and play tournaments all the time but if you don't see yourself as being a better player - you won't be.
We all know players that have been missing the same back cuts down the rails for 20 years. Why? Because part of their identity is that they miss *those* shots. That's it.
Pool players see themselves playing at a certain level, work their ass off to get there and then stay there the rest of their lives - unless they are able make a mental shift.
So you want to play better? Visualize how you want to play. Own it. Internalize it. The path will reveal itself once you see it. You will find the way to play at that level.
Everybody reading: How would you describe your level of play?
Write down your answer. Your first instinctive answer. Did you write down: Can beat everyone at the bar? Competes in tournaments and wins a few? Good regional player?
Think about your answer. Do you practice your ass off all the time so you can be a good local player? If so then stop. You already have achieved your goal.
The reason Shane wins so much is because he knows he is the best player and because he knows he is the best player he practices like he believes the best player should practice. It's a feedback loop. When one part is stagnant, the feedback is just noise. Not progress.
I know a player who plays very infrequently. When he does play though he can show up and win a tournament with a strong field including pros. And he does this virtually every time he comes out and plays.
I talked to him about it one time and he said "Pool is easy. I can just see how to hit the shot to make it and so I do. All I have to do is make the balls and I win the money. It's easy."
He sees the reward and isn't screwed up by all the negative thoughts. He assumes he is going to win because he sees the way to win. His mindset is so strong that he sees himself as the best and just believes that he can dust off his cue and beat everybody with a little bit of warmup. And he does. That's natural talent. Natural mindset talent.
People who start younger have a better natural mindset because children aren't as negative when they miss or lose so they tend to just laugh it off and try harder next time.
You guys like to over complicate stuff.
I don't buy into the whole natural talent crap. It looks like natural talent because pros are so good.
If you work your arse off, know the game and have the passion, you'll get there. If you don't, you lack one of those four things I talked about earlier.
I don't buy into the whole natural talent crap. It looks like natural talent because pros are so good.
If you work your arse off, know the game and have the passion, you'll get there. If you don't, you lack one of those four things I talked about earlier.
I thought about Jack beforehand. He is definitely an exception to any rule in golf. Although, I do remember the same about him.
Pros are mostly exceptions to the rule, that's the biggest reason they are pros. If it was just hard work, I would be a pro as many other amateurs would be.
I have a very good friend that's a pro. Has been now for almost a decade. He spends 5 to 7 hours a day on his table when at home. He mostly practices his break but, he has 3 main drills after break that is his go to.
He can go weeks without playing and give me last two and breaks and score will be in range of 11...7 ..... 11.....8. Throw his regimen in the mix, lol score is 11....3 .... 11...4..
I believe the truth to all of this is somewhere in the middle because I e seen to many top pros play extremely bad (for them) simply because they have been away from table just a little to long.
Again, I believe the truth of it all, as usual...lol... is somewhere in the middle.
Oh Jack was the best golfer to ever swing a club.
Rake
I very much dislike the common application of the word talent. It's essentially interchangeable with magic. I think a persons aptitude is probably a lot more observable than is given credit for. To be clear, I don't ascribe to the viewpoint that anyone anywhere can reach elite levels. I would say many of the key factors that allow someone to reach elite levels is connected to their personality and circumstance.
By this I mean, some people are considerably more trainable than others. They take direction better, they are more apt to practice properly, they are more likely to practice things they don't enjoy and they are less likely to overanalyze while playing. For the latter, I think there is something to be said for someone who is able to just play without too much thought and I wonder if it is possible to try too hard to improve.
That could explain why some players are stronger players despite eschewing tons of coaching and learning tools and maybe even practicing less. They may not be getting better, but they perform better because they just play. I think most players know that you are supposed to let your muscle memory take over in competition, but perhaps some people are better than others at that. I know that sometimes I am able to deliver the cue unconsciously and that is a step beyond what I normally do and is separate from being in the zone. I liken it to when I play guitar where I can play 100% without any thought and that includes improvisation as well.
You can, of course, observe that some people pick up the game are immediately better than others at the beginner level but I'm not sure that has anything to do with a inherent ability. I suspect that the primary reason for their initial ability is that they have already developed their hand-eye coordination through other activities.
I have noticed from my experience teaching beginners is that people with a background in sports like basketball, baseball or golf tend to have a much softer initial learning curve than someone who's traditionally played games like soccer or participated in track. I think they could get up to speed with their peers, but it's a tougher road since they are trying to make a simple short shot while their peers are learning basic cue ball control since they've already developed strong hand-eye coordination.
So although I believe a lot of what impacts aptitude is related personality traits, that isn't to say that anyone can just mimic the behavior of a high aptitude player. It's one thing to practice properly and all that for a week, but being able to commit to doing that for years on end is another thing entirely. How many people do we know who has the potential to do great things in life but never realize their potential despite knowing all they had to do was put in the effort? Some are able to change things, but there are so many others who just can't force themselves to do it.
By this I mean, some people are considerably more trainable than others. They take direction better, they are more apt to practice properly, they are more likely to practice things they don't enjoy and they are less likely to overanalyze while playing. For the latter, I think there is something to be said for someone who is able to just play without too much thought and I wonder if it is possible to try too hard to improve.
That could explain why some players are stronger players despite eschewing tons of coaching and learning tools and maybe even practicing less. They may not be getting better, but they perform better because they just play. I think most players know that you are supposed to let your muscle memory take over in competition, but perhaps some people are better than others at that. I know that sometimes I am able to deliver the cue unconsciously and that is a step beyond what I normally do and is separate from being in the zone. I liken it to when I play guitar where I can play 100% without any thought and that includes improvisation as well.
You can, of course, observe that some people pick up the game are immediately better than others at the beginner level but I'm not sure that has anything to do with a inherent ability. I suspect that the primary reason for their initial ability is that they have already developed their hand-eye coordination through other activities.
I have noticed from my experience teaching beginners is that people with a background in sports like basketball, baseball or golf tend to have a much softer initial learning curve than someone who's traditionally played games like soccer or participated in track. I think they could get up to speed with their peers, but it's a tougher road since they are trying to make a simple short shot while their peers are learning basic cue ball control since they've already developed strong hand-eye coordination.
So although I believe a lot of what impacts aptitude is related personality traits, that isn't to say that anyone can just mimic the behavior of a high aptitude player. It's one thing to practice properly and all that for a week, but being able to commit to doing that for years on end is another thing entirely. How many people do we know who has the potential to do great things in life but never realize their potential despite knowing all they had to do was put in the effort? Some are able to change things, but there are so many others who just can't force themselves to do it.
You can learn, practice, learn, practice, get in action, get seasoned,
gamble, etc., and there will always be the guy that's done all that,
but has more raw talent that will be better.
In music, there's good players, very good technicians, then there's
prodigies.. people that play lights out naturally.
You can't teach talent...
$.02
gamble, etc., and there will always be the guy that's done all that,
but has more raw talent that will be better.
In music, there's good players, very good technicians, then there's
prodigies.. people that play lights out naturally.
You can't teach talent...
$.02
I agree with the talent part. Natural talent can make it so much easier, but you still gotta work hard. People that aren't that talented have to work twice as hard.
And I also think the understanding of the game is very important, which comes with the natural talent. Some people seem to not understand the game of pool. And I dont talk about things like, how to play a stop or draw the ball. Things like, when is it more clever to play save, which is the best way to get position and why, how will the cueball react and which exact line does the ball travel etc.
And.. you gotta have a strong mental game with a winner attitude. You can play like a god when on the practice table. But if you suck in competition, its pretty much useless.
And I also think the understanding of the game is very important, which comes with the natural talent. Some people seem to not understand the game of pool. And I dont talk about things like, how to play a stop or draw the ball. Things like, when is it more clever to play save, which is the best way to get position and why, how will the cueball react and which exact line does the ball travel etc.
And.. you gotta have a strong mental game with a winner attitude. You can play like a god when on the practice table. But if you suck in competition, its pretty much useless.