How to Use Pivot Point Knowlege To Increase Error Margins

[Poolplaya9]

...all this technical stuff is not necessary.

...all this gibberish...I'm not against gaining knowledge, I'm against gaining unnecessary knowledge.

This is what dumb people tend to say. Whenever you hear one of the following you can give 30 to 1 odds that the person saying it isn't a very intelligent individual and you will come out ahead in your betting:

-someone disparaging the usefulness of science
-the term "technical mumbo jumbo"
-anything indicating they universally hate to learn or have a closed mind
-anyone downplaying the power of knowledge

On a side note, you say you are against "unnecessary knowledge", but how would you always know what knowledge would be useless and unnecessary when you don't yet have that knowledge? There are cases, often in fact, where the usefulness of knowledge isn't evident until you have that knowledge. And in any case knowledge is never a bad thing, ever. It can have anywhere from almost no benefit to having enormous benefit but there is never a drawback or negative to having it. Learn all you can and then use from that what you find valuable and useful and don't use what you don't find to be necessary or useful because now you actually know which is which. The only negative in regards to knowledge is not having it. Lots of bad things come from not having knowledge but none come from having it.

On another side note, it also seems that a certain segment of dumb people like to attack science, and knowledge, simply because they are unable to understand it or obtain it. It is a coping method. Instead of accepting that they are deficient in the intelligence department, and working to improve that, it is easier [on the ego] for some to choose to attack science and knowledge pretend that is has little or no benefit so they don't have to admit to themselves that they just aren't capable of understanding and might be missing out on something good. It is human nature for it to be incredibly difficult to admit to and accept our shortcomings at times. Some real introspection and soul searching can prove to be insightful in this respect when people are truly ready to be honest with themselves.

The good news is that our intelligence and level of knowledge are both largely regulated by our desire to learn and our willingness to put in the effort that learning requires so we have the ability to change things if we choose.

 

[Keith Jawahir]

This is what dumb people tend to say. Whenever you hear one of the following you can give 30 to 1 odds that the person saying it isn't a very intelligent individual and you will come out ahead in your betting:

-someone disparaging the usefulness of science
-the term "technical mumbo jumbo"
-anything indicating they universally hate to learn or have a closed mind
-anyone downplaying the power of knowledge

On a side note, you say you are against "unnecessary knowledge", but how would you always know what knowledge would be useless and unnecessary when you don't yet have that knowledge? There are cases, often in fact, where the usefulness of knowledge isn't evident until you have that knowledge. And in any case knowledge is never a bad thing, ever. It can have anywhere from almost no benefit to having enormous benefit but there is never a drawback or negative to having it. Learn all you can and then use from that what you find valuable and useful and don't use what you don't find to be necessary or useful because now you actually know which is which. The only negative in regards to knowledge is not having it. Lots of bad things come from not having knowledge but none come from having it.

On another side note, it also seems that a certain segment of dumb people like to attack science, and knowledge, simply because they are unable to understand it or obtain it. It is a coping method. Instead of accepting that they are deficient in the intelligence department, and working to improve that, it is easier [on the ego] for some to choose to attack science and knowledge pretend that is has little or no benefit so they don't have to admit to themselves that they just aren't capable of understanding and might be missing out on something good. It is human nature for it to be incredibly difficult to admit to and accept our shortcomings at times. Some real introspection and soul searching can prove to be insightful in this respect when people are truly ready to be honest with themselves.

The good news is that our intelligence and level of knowledge are both largely regulated by our desire to learn and our willingness to put in the effort that learning requires so we have the ability to change things if we choose.

Ok.... did you know that it's illegal to play dominos on a Sunday in Alabama? Did you need to know that? No, you didn't. But now you know it. Could you one day inadvertently benefit from that knowledge? Who knows. Do you get what we're trying to say?

How about this. Maybe the wording is a touch too complicated for the average user of this forum? I've read your posts, and you're usually pretty on point. But in this case you're basically calling Kris a d-mbass, and that's pretty out of character for you.

 

[Kris_b1104]

This is what dumb people tend to say. Whenever you hear one of the following you can give 30 to 1 odds that the person saying it isn't a very intelligent individual and you will come out ahead in your betting:

-someone disparaging the usefulness of science
-the term "technical mumbo jumbo"
-anything indicating they universally hate to learn or have a closed mind
-anyone downplaying the power of knowledge

Lol disparaging the usefulness of science. I guess I wasted my time getting a Bachelors in Allied Health Sciences. I have taken physics class and I fully well understand what's being discussed. I'm actually a pool player that hasn't dropped out of high school so save it. What I am questioning is the usefulness of this knowledge when Darren Appleton is on the hill to win a world championship and about to sink the 9 ball, I'm sure he's thinking about squirt and swerve and pivot point.

 

[DirtyJersey]

What does that mean?

Lol, although this is very funny and mockery does have a place in these forums I'm just trying to wrap my head around the methods these guys are discussing. TBH until now I haven't thought about how I deliver english to the CB. I'm not entirely sure that it makes a difference. Even if I can dismiss at lot of discussions here as being unimportant I can't have contempt for something without prior investigation. Other than on these forums I have never heard anyone mention BHE or FHE.

 

[Kris_b1104]

Continue with your essay long responses my friend, the more words you use, the smarter people will think you are. I'm too ignorant to even fully read your entire post, because I hate knowledge and science. Science sucks.

 

[Poolplaya9]

I'll admit i'm not the brightest bulb but I'm confused here. There are world champions who have a wide variety of strokes, bridge lengths and bridge types.

If the pivot point of a cue is so vital to the game how are these world class players so successful? Are they carefully selecting cues to match their pivot point?

The short answer is that pros do a pretty good job of adjusting for all of these things (mostly subconsciously) even though they often don't even realize there was something that needed to be adjusted for much less that they are subconsciously adjusting for it, plus they have superior hand/eye coordination, physical skills, ability to deal with stress/pressure/fear, etc. The thing is though, even though they do a pretty good job subconsciously adjusting for all this stuff (squirt, swerve, throw, etc), if they realized and recognized more about some of the things that are actually occurring, and why, and the sometimes alternative ways they could be dealt with (like cue pivot points/bridge lengths as one example), then they would be even better than they are now. And yes that includes SVB and Efren too.

 

[philly]

I'm pretty sure most of us can walk without thinking but if you consciously take the time to think about what goes in to walking as you are walking you probably would have trouble walking. I am a feel player and a strong believer in the subconscious working in pool and overthinking is a big reason we miss shots and shape. Threads like this confuse most players, even good players.
As far saying that if pros thought about these things consciously they would be better players is just an assumption. How can a player that is not on the pro level even have an idea what they are or are not thinking.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

What I am questioning is the usefulness of this knowledge when Darren Appleton is on the hill to win a world championship and about to sink the 9 ball, I'm sure he's thinking about squirt and swerve and pivot point.

Two more for the list:

- [pro's name here] does it/doesn't do it, so...
- knowing something means you think about it while shooting

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The short answer is that pros do a pretty good job of adjusting for all of these things (mostly subconsciously) even though they often don't even realize there was something that needed to be adjusted for much less that they are subconsciously adjusting for it, plus they have superior hand/eye coordination, physical skills, ability to deal with stress/pressure/fear, etc. The thing is though, even though they do a pretty good job subconsciously adjusting for all this stuff (squirt, swerve, throw, etc), if they realized and recognized more about some of the things that are actually occurring, and why, and the sometimes alternative ways they could be dealt with (like cue pivot points/bridge lengths as one example), then they would be even better than they are now. And yes that includes SVB and Efren too.

Tap tap

I can't think of a reason that more knowledge about what you're trying to do wouldn't be useful, if only to add depth and context to your subconscious computations. Questioning the usefulness of any knowledge puts you at an automatic disadvantage.

pj
chgo

 

[Keith Jawahir]

Tap tap

I can't think of a reason that more knowledge about what you're trying to do wouldn't be useful, if only to add depth and context to your subconscious computations. Questioning the usefulness of any knowledge puts you at an automatic disadvantage.

pj
chgo

More knowledge thrust upon us from the phallic fountain of billiards knowledge, Patrick Johnson. You really should publish this and change the world. Maybe we can start a religion in your honor.

 

[Keith Jawahir]

Tap tap

I can't think of a reason that more knowledge about what you're trying to do wouldn't be useful, if only to add depth and context to your subconscious computations. Questioning the usefulness of any knowledge puts you at an automatic disadvantage.

pj
chgo

Shall I start quoting you from the Shane hop thread?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Maybe we can start a religion in your honor.

Seems you have.

pj
chgo

 

[Poolplaya9]

Ok.... did you know that it's illegal to play dominos on a Sunday in Alabama? Did you need to know that? No, you didn't. But now you know it. Could you one day inadvertently benefit from that knowledge? Who knows. Do you get what we're trying to say?

How about this. Maybe the wording is a touch too complicated for the average user of this forum? I've read your posts, and you're usually pretty on point. But in this case you're basically calling Kris a d-mbass, and that's pretty out of character for you.

When people are factually wrong I will often call them on it. I hate misinformation. Especially when the person doesn't even understand what they are trying to debate and are disparaging science, knowledge, and technical stuff in the process (which indicates they are the type who are ignorant by choice which I hate most of all). My nature is generally that I tend to tell it like it is.

As for your example, I fully understand that law and therefore it is a little easier to determine how likely it will be that knowing that law will benefit me based on how likely it is that I go to Alabama, how likely it is that I play dominoes, and how likely I am to play dominoes while in Alabama, etc. On the flip side, if you don't even fully understand a concept (which he didn't and I don't think you do either actually) then there is no way you can possibly know how much it could help you (although you can always be certain that the knowledge will never hurt you). And for that matter even when you fully understand a concept, sometimes the usefulness of it isn't fully evident and discovered until you start implementing it and experimenting with it.

I have taken physics class and I fully well understand what's being discussed. What I am questioning is the usefulness of this knowledge when Darren Appleton is on the hill to win a world championship and about to sink the 9 ball, I'm sure he's thinking about squirt and swerve and pivot point.

You clearly do not fully understand what is being discussed--if you did you would realize that it can be useful knowledge. But like I said before, how would you know when you don't have that knowledge yet? Knowledge that you already have can always be not used if you don't deem it to be valuable but there is nothing you can do when the knowledge could have benefited you but you don't have it.

And if Darren Appleton had more of this kind of knowledge he would be a better player than he already is, zero doubt about that. And of course you shouldn't be trying to figure out and understand a concept such as pivot points and how they affect shots while you are down on the case 9 ball for the world championship win. You learn about it while away from the table and while at the table during your practice time and before long it doesn't require any more thought than aiming, or position play or anything else we do on every single shot. It just becomes routine or intuitive or even subconscious.

 

[philly]

Poolplay9, you are extremely wordy sir. I don't think you have any idea what Darren Appleton needs to get better and until you play at his level any advice you can give him is pure speculation not fact, as you seem to imply. I do believe if you tell Darren how to or how not to play pool he would laugh in your face, that is, unless you can play above his level, in which case he might learn something from you.

 

[duckie]

The short answer is that pros do a pretty good job of adjusting for all of these things (mostly subconsciously) even though they often don't even realize there was something that needed to be adjusted for much less that they are subconsciously adjusting for it, plus they have superior hand/eye coordination, physical skills, ability to deal with stress/pressure/fear, etc. The thing is though, even though they do a pretty good job subconsciously adjusting for all this stuff (squirt, swerve, throw, etc), if they realized and recognized more about some of the things that are actually occurring, and why, and the sometimes alternative ways they could be dealt with (like cue pivot points/bridge lengths as one example), then they would be even better than they are now. And yes that includes SVB and Efren too.

How can you consciously know what the subconscious is doing especially of another person?

The only reason to make this kinda of unproveable statement is in order to support a point that can not be supported any other way.


If someone does not know they are adjusting....are they adjusting?

 

[Neil]

That's not quite correct, Neil. I made this drawing some years back to illustrate what happens. Left and right english do not create swerve. It is the axis running through the cue ball (pretend your cue is an axis passing through the cue ball) that matters -- the "3rd axis." When you elevate the butt of the cue, striking the cue ball causes a small amount of rotation about this axis. So what happens when you hit with right english with a little downward angle is that the cue ball squirts left due to the mass of the tip and then the downward spin from the tip (clockwise spin) causes the ball to curve, or swerve, back to the right.

Very true, but the only way to eliminate swerve is with too much speed or a perfectly level cue. Very seldom is a cb struck with an actual level cue. But, it is worth noting. Thanks for the correction.

 

[jasonlaus]

Lol disparaging the usefulness of science. I guess I wasted my time getting a Bachelors in Allied Health Sciences. I have taken physics class and I fully well understand what's being discussed. I'm actually a pool player that hasn't dropped out of high school so save it. What I am questioning is the usefulness of this knowledge when Darren Appleton is on the hill to win a world championship and about to sink the 9 ball, I'm sure he's thinking about squirt and swerve and pivot point.

You bet your ass he is

 

[jasonlaus]

Poolplay9, you are extremely wordy sir. I don't think you have any idea what Darren Appleton needs to get better and until you play at his level any advice you can give him is pure speculation not fact, as you seem to imply. I do believe if you tell Darren how to or how not to play pool he would laugh in your face, that is, unless you can play above his level, in which case he might learn something from you.

A friend of mine has shown BHE and FHE to a few past US open 9ball winners and they thank him everytime they see him. But according to a few of you they already knew everything and this info wouldnt help and they would laugh at him. Lol.

Its hard to understand until you see it and try it yourself, Its not really something you can be told or read about.
Jason

 

[Mikjary]

Nice thread, Colin, but quit giving up these little tidbits for the tool box! :wink:

I bridge with my player at about 11-12 inches. For the long straight ins, I bridge around 15+ inches with a firm stroke. My back hand grips the cue stick with my little finger around the bumper.

This allows for a good stroke and a decent amount of draw, if I need it. I learned this many years ago and straightish pots became a lot easier to cinch. Now, disregard this post and make this thread go away before anybody else learns about this.

Best,
Mike

 

[Colin Colenso]

How can you consciously know what the subconscious is doing especially of another person?

The only reason to make this kinda of unproveable statement is in order to support a point that can not be supported any other way.


If someone does not know they are adjusting....are they adjusting?

Well I've done it a thousand + times and I've observed players at all levels do it thousands of times.

The concept of look at OB last is the means to achieve it. It is an invitation to adjust during the stroke and bridges and swipes have been shifting and swooping, thinking they are generating a straight to CP delivery for a century and more.

Absolutely people are adjusting and not aware they are.

Colin