How would an American fare in the Philippines?
- Thread starter DoomCue
- Start date
John Barton said:
I'm sure they would cover that bet, they'd just need enough time to arrange the dough. They are crazy for betting, and many major officer etc. are gambling there, specially if invited for such an action. It might be that there would be something like 20-50 backers in that kind of game, but I'm sure it would happen with some time and of course their top gun in form to play.
jay helfert said:
Jay, I think it would be like this if played in a 'TV-table conditions', like Dennis and Yang did.
But, if played in a Manila standard pool room (Mabini) over night session, they would hardly match even with second tiers. I'd bet Luat, Kiamco, Lining, Gabica, all would take their money.
If the game would be in a lesser class pool room, many of the third tiers would be favourites also.
Philippines is a very tough place to play, anyway, but especially I'm talking about the 'tirador' places, where the cloth is slower than the carpet in Casinos and the dust of the baby powder is mixed with smoke, and the noice of the side betting is of a horce race or a cock fight.
I spent there 5 months few year's back, and I remember when Kiamco came from Japan, he didn't play good at all. They said then, that "it takes couple of weeks even to the pinoys them selves, to get in shape with the conditions here, when they come back from abroad".
At that time (1999-2000), Efren was alone the 1st tier.
Lining, Busty, Luat, Andam, Parica were the 2nd tiers. (Lining was the most feared and respected in nightly money games, Efren of course in his own class and had to give weigh to everyone - Busty was still living in Germany, and wasn't topic much at all, Parica neither, as he was in US and rumoured to have lost and owned lots of money to players in Philippines).
Kiamco was the top 3rd tier, somewhat hanging there in between the 2nd and 3rd. Corteza was the hottest new comer, young, talented and progressing. Alcano played even with them, and only Callego didn't get weigh from these three. Gabica had came from Germany (Busty sponsored and coached him), and he had raised his level near Alcano&co, but was a notch below. Alex was betting high (with the money earned from Canada), but even Gabica gave him handicap, and it was like 2 on the wire race to 11. Manalo was playing snooker, and wasn't respected or talked about. Dennis was a new kid in the town, and even I kicked his ass
Corteza, even playing great sometimes, didn't progress so much anymore, which was a little surprise. Gabica proggressed for a while still, but hasn't anymore. Alex showed the capasity of his few years later, and so has Dennis now. Manalo I've learned to know now later, and I really respect his game. In tournament play, he might be higher than others, even last 10 months or so he has been more silent, and the luck hasn't favoured him in the finals, even he has been playing the best for some major tournaments.
Lining is past his prime. He wasn't 'lime light' personality anyway, but as a gambler, he was the most consistent and hard-working back then. Andam was tired allready, played still some good tournaments, but retirement and lazy days has been on his mind for few years. Luat went down but has been back for couple of years again. Kiamco had some sickness but is also back.
De Luna, Garcia, Takayama and others are the near future up & coming stars.
So, the level is high and the army has lots of warriors. I think Pagulayan did the smartest move, as he earned some nice money from the States, went to Philippines, won some lost some but most importantly improved a lot, and when the stack got smaller he allways travelled back to the States with the University lessons from gambling and the Degree later. Few years of that, and he got the WPC and US Open.
Marcus hasn't been there so much as you would think (having pinay spouse). When I asked about it, he said he cannot make money there, that's why he rather goes to US. Guy is a Bronze Medallist from the WPC (+couple times 5th placer), and they treat him like a middle class 3rd tier.
Okumura went there in the late 90's (former World Champion and soon to be an US Open runner-up), and they treated him like an amateur there.
You can earn the highest class of University degree there, but like we know, you don't go to University to earn money. To school your self, you have to pay, but it's worth it, as you'll earn everything back with multiple times later..
I think I would bet against any american if a match was played at Side Pocket 
John Barton
New member
Fantastic post Marvel! That was a really nice description.
sounds to me for an American its good value as spot to improve your game and stay in action, but its obvious that it isnt as good for earning a living because the top champions Efren and company leave to come here.
Jay or anyone does my opinion on this post seem right?
MY experience:
Having said that I wouldnt mind going over there and taking a shot, I'm sure I would be in the red but the experience I or anyone could gain would be covered by a couple nice scores back here in America, its just a matter of taking the time and going there and learning your way around etc. I played A guy snooker in Thailand for about 2 hours and lost $30usd, I had chances to break even and just missed-I had'nt hit a snooker ball at that time in at least 2 years(he wasnt stalling he did at first but then he could tell I could play a little and came off the lemon real fast). I know for a fact it was an even game, I have been beat enough times to know when i'm out classed. I was going to go back everyday and play him but I got sick, very sick for 10 days and couldnt leave the hotel room and by the time I was ok I had to leave, so I never played him again.
Jay or anyone does my opinion on this post seem right?
MY experience:
Having said that I wouldnt mind going over there and taking a shot, I'm sure I would be in the red but the experience I or anyone could gain would be covered by a couple nice scores back here in America, its just a matter of taking the time and going there and learning your way around etc. I played A guy snooker in Thailand for about 2 hours and lost $30usd, I had chances to break even and just missed-I had'nt hit a snooker ball at that time in at least 2 years(he wasnt stalling he did at first but then he could tell I could play a little and came off the lemon real fast). I know for a fact it was an even game, I have been beat enough times to know when i'm out classed. I was going to go back everyday and play him but I got sick, very sick for 10 days and couldnt leave the hotel room and by the time I was ok I had to leave, so I never played him again.
Last edited:
jay helfert said:
the guy with only 2 fingers is Pelayo. he's a 3rd tier. the 17 year old is Takayama (japanese surname but Filipino just the same) is between 2nd or 3rd tier.
Marvel said:Jay, I think it would be like this if played in a 'TV-table conditions', like Dennis and Yang did.
But, if played in a Manila standard pool room (Mabini) over night session, they would hardly match even with second tiers. I'd bet Luat, Kiamco, Lining, Gabica, all would take their money.
If the game would be in a lesser class pool room, many of the third tiers would be favourites also.
Philippines is a very tough place to play, anyway, but especially I'm talking about the 'tirador' places, where the cloth is slower than the carpet in Casinos and the dust of the baby powder is mixed with smoke, and the noice of the side betting is of a horce race or a cock fight.
I spent there 5 months few year's back, and I remember when Kiamco came from Japan, he didn't play good at all. They said then, that "it takes couple of weeks even to the pinoys them selves, to get in shape with the conditions here, when they come back from abroad".
At that time (1999-2000), Efren was alone the 1st tier.
Lining, Busty, Luat, Andam, Parica were the 2nd tiers. (Lining was the most feared and respected in nightly money games, Efren of course in his own class and had to give weigh to everyone - Busty was still living in Germany, and wasn't topic much at all, Parica neither, as he was in US and rumoured to have lost and owned lots of money to players in Philippines).
Kiamco was the top 3rd tier, somewhat hanging there in between the 2nd and 3rd. Corteza was the hottest new comer, young, talented and progressing. Alcano played even with them, and only Callego didn't get weigh from these three. Gabica had came from Germany (Busty sponsored and coached him), and he had raised his level near Alcano&co, but was a notch below. Alex was betting high (with the money earned from Canada), but even Gabica gave him handicap, and it was like 2 on the wire race to 11. Manalo was playing snooker, and wasn't respected or talked about. Dennis was a new kid in the town, and even I kicked his ass
Corteza, even playing great sometimes, didn't progress so much anymore, which was a little surprise. Gabica proggressed for a while still, but hasn't anymore. Alex showed the capasity of his few years later, and so has Dennis now. Manalo I've learned to know now later, and I really respect his game. In tournament play, he might be higher than others, even last 10 months or so he has been more silent, and the luck hasn't favoured him in the finals, even he has been playing the best for some major tournaments.
Lining is past his prime. He wasn't 'lime light' personality anyway, but as a gambler, he was the most consistent and hard-working back then. Andam was tired allready, played still some good tournaments, but retirement and lazy days has been on his mind for few years. Luat went down but has been back for couple of years again. Kiamco had some sickness but is also back.
De Luna, Garcia, Takayama and others are the near future up & coming stars.
So, the level is high and the army has lots of warriors. I think Pagulayan did the smartest move, as he earned some nice money from the States, went to Philippines, won some lost some but most importantly improved a lot, and when the stack got smaller he allways travelled back to the States with the University lessons from gambling and the Degree later. Few years of that, and he got the WPC and US Open.
Marcus hasn't been there so much as you would think (having pinay spouse). When I asked about it, he said he cannot make money there, that's why he rather goes to US. Guy is a Bronze Medallist from the WPC (+couple times 5th placer), and they treat him like a middle class 3rd tier.
Okumura went there in the late 90's (former World Champion and soon to be an US Open runner-up), and they treated him like an amateur there.
You can earn the highest class of University degree there, but like we know, you don't go to University to earn money. To school your self, you have to pay, but it's worth it, as you'll earn everything back with multiple times later..
Good post Marvel. You fill in a lot of the blanks. Suffice to say that ANY player can get all the games they want over there. It just may not be for high stakes, unless you have a rich backer that wants to watch you get tortured by the top players.
The fastest improving and up and coming American player is Shane. He has the desire and the ability to be one of the best. He wants to challenge himself and play against the champions. For him, a long visit to the Philipines would be a good thing. It would be like finishing school.
I watched young Mike Takayama (17) play a 15 year old the last time I was there in February. It was Ten Ball and a long race, like to 23. They went back and forth until Mike started running out from everywhere. He played awesome to say the least. This kid is probably second tier already, or damn close. I left One Side that night shaking my head. Here is a 17 year old kid that I just saw play Ten Ball as good as any current American player.
I mean he literally could play Johnny or Corey right now and make them work hard to win. And maybe they wouldn't have to like it either. There is no kid under 21 in this country anywhere near his speed. Only Shane (who is 23) could be mentioned in the same breath.
jay helfert said:
Jay,there are actually 5 under 20 who play at the same speed. 17s are Mike and Revo, 18s are Jecjec and Jomar and 20 is Eric who's Alcano's protege.
I know that a few of the American youngsters have seen Revo play at the Youth World 9-Ball in Sydney and they'd steer away from him.
bandido said:
I believe Jay was referring to American youngsters under 21.
Hail Mary Shot said:
Correct. I'm not surprised that there are more like Mike in the Philipines.
Jay,
how would you fair John Morra against Mike Takayama? are they of the same caliber? or does John have an edge?
how would you fair John Morra against Mike Takayama? are they of the same caliber? or does John have an edge?
Russ,
As far as "dumping" is concerned, it happens everywhere if you let it. That is one of the reasons why it is called "gambling". But generally, in the Philippines, the percentage is very, very low. The reason being is that the player or players or play good want to make a good impression on his backers with the hope that they will take care of him in the long run.
Like with Dennis and Van Van, their backers really went out of their way to help them. The arrangement between player and backer is similar to employee/employer relationship right now. Van Van gets a monthly stipend or salary from his boss. Tournament winnings are a different story. They have their own internal arrangement on that, same as in gambling winnings.
Mind you, though, that these gentlemen might be businessmen, but they are also accomplished gamblers in their own rights, so it is not really out of their province to back somebody like these pool players.
With Dennis, it is quite similar in arrangement, though there might be some slight differences as far as winings are concerned. If you want, you could really compare these players to race horses who are pampered and groomed and given the best of amenities.
Now, if an accomplished American player would go and play in the Philippines like Efren and company, they should be have nerves of steel and very, very deep pockets in order to last long. I guarantee you that after their first game or match, there would be no shortage of matches or challenges from these local players. In the long run, his dollar reserve will disappear in time, but he will gain lots of knowledge about the game, that is if he is observant enough and level headed enough to accept defeat.....
bayawak aka tirador
As far as "dumping" is concerned, it happens everywhere if you let it. That is one of the reasons why it is called "gambling". But generally, in the Philippines, the percentage is very, very low. The reason being is that the player or players or play good want to make a good impression on his backers with the hope that they will take care of him in the long run.
Like with Dennis and Van Van, their backers really went out of their way to help them. The arrangement between player and backer is similar to employee/employer relationship right now. Van Van gets a monthly stipend or salary from his boss. Tournament winnings are a different story. They have their own internal arrangement on that, same as in gambling winnings.
Mind you, though, that these gentlemen might be businessmen, but they are also accomplished gamblers in their own rights, so it is not really out of their province to back somebody like these pool players.
With Dennis, it is quite similar in arrangement, though there might be some slight differences as far as winings are concerned. If you want, you could really compare these players to race horses who are pampered and groomed and given the best of amenities.
Now, if an accomplished American player would go and play in the Philippines like Efren and company, they should be have nerves of steel and very, very deep pockets in order to last long. I guarantee you that after their first game or match, there would be no shortage of matches or challenges from these local players. In the long run, his dollar reserve will disappear in time, but he will gain lots of knowledge about the game, that is if he is observant enough and level headed enough to accept defeat.....
bayawak aka tirador