how would ya hit it?

[evergruven]

I still do not understand why some feel the need for any sidespin or high/low. It just isn't necessary. My wife is a SL4 in APA and she could probably make this shot at a fairly high percentage.

Let's get a tougher shot next time, people!

thanks maniac, and all for the replies.
the results of this informal poll show that even an "easy" shot like this one can inspire debate, and I'm glad- I've learned from it.
in a way, I think that's a point- pool is paradoxically simple and complex. I know that's a big reason why I keep coming back ^_^
I hear you tho. and a lot of this is relative. I'm sure I've hit fewer balls than many of y'all, but I'm improving- y'all have helped!

about the shot itself:
I instinctively gravitate towards english, but have been trying to play closer to center, to gain that knowledge/skill
the left english throws the object ball to the right, which is desirable, as that's where the pocket is, but-
I've noticed sometimes when I play with english, I throw the ball into (in this case) the long rail, which is the smaller side of the pocket, right?

I'm wondering if it's common in the first place to "overthrow" the ob when using english, then, I wonder if that's a reason to just roll it?

or maybe, if as an above poster pointed out, to avoid missing dead center, hit with a touch of outside? and maybe aim for the outside of the pocket?

a lot of thinking about an easy shot but it's fun to chop it up w y'all, especially when I can't be on a table! I appreciate it.

related- I'm wondering if using english has the same amount of effect, regardless of how high on the cb we hit it?
does hitting the cb equator with english produce more of an effect, since that's where the cb is longest?

 

[TwoRailDave]

thanks maniac, and all for the replies.
the results of this informal poll show that even an "easy" shot like this one can inspire debate, and I'm glad- I've learned from it.
in a way, I think that's a point- pool is paradoxically simple and complex. I know that's a big reason why I keep coming back ^_^
I hear you tho. and a lot of this is relative. I'm sure I've hit fewer balls than many of y'all, but I'm improving- y'all have helped!

about the shot itself:
I instinctively gravitate towards english, but have been trying to play closer to center, to gain that knowledge/skill
the left english throws the object ball to the right, which is desirable, as that's where the pocket is, but-
I've noticed sometimes when I play with english, I throw the ball into (in this case) the long rail, which is the smaller side of the pocket, right?

I'm wondering if it's common in the first place to "overthrow" the ob when using english, then, I wonder if that's a reason to just roll it?

or maybe, if as an above poster pointed out, to avoid missing dead center, hit with a touch of outside? and maybe aim for the outside of the pocket?

a lot of thinking about an easy shot but it's fun to chop it up w y'all, especially when I can't be on a table! I appreciate it.

related- I'm wondering if using english has the same amount of effect, regardless of how high on the cb we hit it?
does hitting the cb equator with english produce more of an effect, since that's where the cb is longest?

This was an excellent shot to highlight.

The precise aim point will be affected by how high or low you apply the english. Swerve, throw and deflection will be affected in different ways by the point struck on the cue ball, the angle of the cue, and of course, the stroke..

It would be nice if the stroke was an easier thing to describe to someone. You could hit the same place on the cue ball and and have different outcomes depending on the smoothness, follow-through, firmness levels of the stroke.

I am a believer of using the stroke and a LITTLE low outside to throw the ball in. A lot of people use too much english. I would not hit it pocket speed or close to; or hard. Skids are a significant consideration in a shot like this that should be very high percentage. I find soft inside english to skid this shot the most.

 

[straightline]

about the shot itself:
I instinctively gravitate towards english, but have been trying to play closer to center, to gain that knowledge/skill
the left english throws the object ball to the right, which is desirable, as that's where the pocket is, but-
I've noticed sometimes when I play with english, I throw the ball into (in this case) the long rail, which is the smaller side of the pocket, right?

I'm wondering if it's common in the first place to "overthrow" the ob when using english, then, I wonder if that's a reason to just roll it?

or maybe, if as an above poster pointed out, to avoid missing dead center, hit with a touch of outside? and maybe aim for the outside of the pocket?

a lot of thinking about an easy shot but it's fun to chop it up w y'all, especially when I can't be on a table! I appreciate it.

related- I'm wondering if using english has the same amount of effect, regardless of how high on the cb we hit it?
does hitting the cb equator with english produce more of an effect, since that's where the cb is longest?

Here's what I think- that I believe it's also true is incidental

There's a subconscious tendency to go for the back of the pocket. When you do that on shots like the one in the example, the cushion is in the way. Solution for me is to aim at the vertical line on the far facing where it meets the pocket liner. Using this line to center the shot usually takes the rail out of play.
It's good to learn to hit very specific targets so you can establish a zero point for the shot. For instance the outside, side recommended in this thread can toggle between two effects.
1) the intended thrown line
or
2) a deflected thicker hit

This is speed/deflection dependent and needs to be worked out. The ingrained zero constant simplifies this.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I throw the ball into (in this case) the long rail, which is the smaller side of the pocket, right?

You can hit the rail near the pocket and still make the shot, so the pocket’s actually bigger from there than it looks.

I'm wondering if it's common in the first place to "overthrow" the ob when using english

Yes, and/or misjudge the squirt/swerve.

then, I wonder if that's a reason to just roll it?

Yes. KISS is the first rule of pool.

pj
chgo

 

[straightline]

@ipoppa33
You find this disturbing?

 

[Cornerman]

I still do not understand why some feel the need for any sidespin or high/low. It just isn't necessary. My wife is a SL4 in APA and she could probably make this shot at a fairly high percentage.

Let's get a tougher shot next time, people!

Niels would say “to ensure a clean contact.” A similar cut shot (but to the side pocket, IIRC) was made during a recent event, and both Jeremy and Karl talked about how to hit it. The internet was mentioned to the effect of:


Karl: many people on the internet say, “don’t use outside on this shot,” but I don’t know any professional player that wouldn’t

JJ: i agree with you, Karl.

 

[Cornerman]

Here’s a similar shot on the 9-ball that I could find watching the 1989 World 9-ball. Slight cut down the rail, totally easy shot. Nick uses low left with a medium speed as I would expect most top players.

I took snap shots of that tournament and others where the 9-ball stayed around the rack. If there was the slightest or sharp angle, every player hit with with low or stun outside english to double the corner.

 

[The_JV]

Niels would say “to ensure a clean contact.” A similar cut shot (but to the side pocket, IIRC) was made during a recent event, and both Jeremy and Karl talked about how to hit it. The internet was mentiones to the effect of:


Karl: many people on the internet say, “don’t use outside on this shot,” but I don’t know any professional player that wouldn’t

JJ: i agree with you, Karl.

Definitely..., however and once again. Pros play play on top condition equipment.

With new cloth you can expect minuscule to no swerve on the CB when hitting with a small amount of side english at a light to medium pace. To expect the same on worn cloth you need to increase power so the CB skids more. That extra power shrinks the pocket.

With new cloth, you can also expect the OB to hit higher along the long rail and slide it's way into the corner. The same can't be said for worn cloth. ...and the greater pace to avoid managing CB swerve makes it even tougher.

None of this needs to be explained to an experienced player that's missed a thousand similar shots and has figured out why.

Everything but a rolling CB on worn cloth is complication without gain. Extra pace and whatever english merely opens the door to errors that can be avoided by making a good choice. Give me the larger target by rolling the shot over the perceived gain of some tiny amount of transferred english to the OB any day.

All that said... If I was playing this shot on new-ish cloth with decent balls. I'd probably hit a tad harder than what it would take kill (not stun) the CB and err toward outside english. With new conditions and this specific shot, the corner will be a vacuum. But why am I talking out both sides of my mouth..?..., variables. Playing successful pool is nothing more than adapting to variables. To think there's a 'one size fits all' approach to playing this game is a big mistake. This shot and the assumption that pros playing the pro game are doing it the best way to hit it in all circumstances is a great example.

 

[Black-Balled]

This never made sense to me. Using a little side doesn't lock you in to using exactly the spin you anticipate. If you can't find/hit center ball accurately and consistently, you can't find/hit a little side (or however much you anticipate the effects of) accurately and consistently either.

If you're anticipating using a half tip of outside, for example, you run the risk of hitting with a full tip of outside or actual center ball. Both of which could cause a miss.

I know that a lot of people do this, so I assume there's merit to it. But it doesn't make sense to me.

Makes sense to mee too: margin of error.

If your strikes are off, they are off...irrespective of where 'on' is.

 

[Cornerman]

Definitely..., however and once again. Pros play play on top condition equipment.

With new cloth you can expect minuscule to no swerve on the CB when hitting with a small amount of side english at a light to medium pace. To expect the same on worn cloth you need to increase power so the CB skids more. That extra power shrinks the pocket.

With new cloth, you can also expect the OB to hit higher along the long rail and slide it's way into the corner. The same can't be said for worn cloth. ...and the greater pace to avoid managing CB swerve makes it even tougher.

None of this needs to be explained to an experienced player that's missed a thousand similar shots and has figured out why.

Everything but a rolling CB on worn cloth is complication without gain. Extra pace and whatever english merely opens the door to errors that can be avoided by making a good choice. Give me the larger target by rolling the shot over the perceived gain of some tiny amount of transferred english to the OB any day.

All that said... If I was playing this shot on new-ish cloth with decent balls. I'd probably hit a tad harder than what it would take kill (not stun) the CB and err toward outside english. With new conditions and this specific shot, the corner will be a vacuum. But why am I talking out both sides of my mouth..?..., variables. Playing successful pool is nothing more than adapting to variables. To think there's a 'one size fits all' approach to playing this game is a big mistake. This shot and the assumption that pros playing the pro game are doing it the best way to hit it in all circumstances is a great example.

You do realize that pros play older equipment, too? When they traveled across the country in action, asking for pristine conditions often wasnt part of the equation. If anything, with less-than-ideal conditions, using a firm, outside english shot would be more needed to ensure no break down in stroke, less table roll effects, and ensuring the clean contact.

 

[The_JV]

You do realize that pros play older equipment, too? When they traveled across the country in action, asking for pristine conditions often wasnt part of the equation. If anything, with less-than-ideal conditions, using a firm, outside english shot would be more needed to ensure no break down in stroke, less table roll effects, and ensuring the clean contact.

Again though... we're comparing pros to average joes.

A pro has the mechanics, accuracy and the understanding of the physics to support that firmer shot. The vast, VAST majority do not. I'm also not suggesting the OB barely make it there so this worry about table roll is moot.

I don't need to be right in the world of AZB. I'm just commenting on how I see the weaker player miss this shot repeatedly and it's always when they hit it strong and over cut. How do you fix that...? Well either creep closer to pro playing ability or remove the unnecessary variables.

 

[Cornerman]

Again though... we're comparing pros to average joes.

A pro has the mechanics, accuracy and the understanding of the physics to support that firmer shot. The vast, VAST majority do not. I'm also not suggesting the OB barely make it there so this worry about table roll is moot.

I don't need to be right in the world of AZB. I'm just commenting on how I see the weaker player miss this shot repeatedly and it's always when they hit it strong and over cut. How do you fix that...? Well either creep closer to pro playing ability or remove the unnecessary variables.

That’s fair, which is pretty aligned with my original answer way back on 1 or so. To keep going with my answer, top local players who arent pros are generally going to also hit with that medium with low or stun outside. Is it a sign of progression? Maybe.

 

[The_JV]

That’s fair, which is pretty aligned with my original answer way back on 1 or so. To keep going with my answer, top local players who arent pros are generally going to also hit with that medium with low or stun outside.

As would I... depending on the table. My local room's tables are in terrible condition and I suffer from 'swerve correction' on those light/medium shots for the first 15mins or so every time I go there to hit balls. Whereas my own table has relatively new 860 so the "pro style" is how I generally opt to play.

Is it a sign of progression? Maybe.

I'd venture to say definitely. Swinging hard..?.., no. Playing firm and correcting for variables...?..., definitely. The problems come in when this 'progression' is actually nothing more than "local pro" development, and they fall flat on their faces when they play on something different.

 

[WobblyStroke]

I think cornerman pretty much nailed where pros stand on this type of shot. As Earl points out in his commentary, there are a lot of shots that come up in 9ball that really have a consensus 'right way' to play them among pros. That way is the percentage play....with the caveat of having pro level strokes and perhaps also thousands of hours of seeing thousands of similar shots that allows them to effortlessly adjust for various spins.

I understand the other side of the argument too and not complicating things for average joes. Reminds me of a tennis lesson my friend was giving to beginners. I asked him why he told them something different than he told me regarding the wrist action. His response was illuminating:

"What I told you is the right way to play it, but their technique isn't good enough for the right way; they have to learn to play it like this first. It's the right way, for them."

 

[skip100]

"KISS" and "not complicating things"...

For intermediate players and above I just don't buy that applying a touch of outside is any more complicated than determining how much intentional overcut is needed to counteract cut-induced throw. Beginners who don't have the skill to use sidespin or understand the concepts, sure.

 

[BlueRaider]

If hitting that shot with low left is the right way to hit it, then why is hitting it with low center the wrong way? Is it solely because of the risk of a skid and the outside helps prevent that?

Other than that, aiming is aiming. There's nothing inherently more difficult about aiming the shot with no spin than there is to aim it with spin (again, taking the risk of a skid out of the equation). Either way, you're adjusting for something, whether it's spin-induced throw or cut-induced throw.

 

[evergruven]

You can hit the rail near the pocket and still make the shot, so the pocket’s actually bigger from there than it looks.

With new cloth, you can also expect the OB to hit higher along the long rail and slide it's way into the corner. The same can't be said for worn cloth. ...and the greater pace to avoid managing CB swerve makes it even tougher.

pat and JV, I can see sliding the ob down the long rail on this shot- I can also visualize hitting the pocket point and missing it in the process
my understanding is that the "bigger" part of the pocket on this shot is the left side, on the short rail side- is that correct?
if that's the case, would you aim for that side while shooting this shot? thanks y'all-

 

[straightline]

pat and JV, I can see sliding the ob down the long rail on this shot- I can also visualize hitting the pocket point and missing it in the process
my understanding is that the "bigger" part of the pocket on this shot is the left side, on the short rail side- is that correct?
if that's the case, would you aim for that side while shooting this shot? thanks y'all-

It's a speed thing. Try the same shot except place the cue ball on the other (table side) side of the object ball. Try rolling a few shots so they hit the long rail just outside of the pocket. There is usually an inch or so wedge of near facing that is irrelevant at pocket speed. That is you can draw a line from the edge of the ball right through that slice of facing and shoot as if it's not there. I call that the funnel. If you firm up the stroke but aim the same way you should lose the throw effect and be hitting closer to center aperture.

With your shot the effect will be reversed so roll the ball through the open aperture and as you firm up you should be grazing the long rail.

 

[Rodney]

Bottom line is hit it how it suits your game. I’m most comfortable hitting it with low left.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

my understanding is that the "bigger" part of the pocket on this shot is the left side, on the short rail side- is that correct?

No, it's the other side (because the rail acts like a "mirror").

pj
chgo