How Would You Play THESE? Three 3 ball runouts.
- Thread starter Jude Rosenstock
- Start date
Good thread...
This is neat because it forces you to think about how you can intelligently play paths that are absolutely dog-proof... like, you could overhit or underhit every ball by 2 feet and STILL be a sure bet to get out. Some are trickier than they look at first glance because in some cases getting the wrong angle on one of the balls or landing on the rail can force you to come with more stroke or shotmaking ability than you really want or need.
This is neat because it forces you to think about how you can intelligently play paths that are absolutely dog-proof... like, you could overhit or underhit every ball by 2 feet and STILL be a sure bet to get out. Some are trickier than they look at first glance because in some cases getting the wrong angle on one of the balls or landing on the rail can force you to come with more stroke or shotmaking ability than you really want or need.
second diagram
I don't like the blue route for one reason,I have seen hundreds of people scratch in the side pocket.People don't seem to take into consideration that there is a pocket there.CreeDo said:This is neat because it forces you to think about how you can intelligently play paths that are absolutely dog-proof... like, you could overhit or underhit every ball by 2 feet and STILL be a sure bet to get out. Some are trickier than they look at first glance because in some cases getting the wrong angle on one of the balls or landing on the rail can force you to come with more stroke or shotmaking ability than you really want or need.
its becoming clear to me...
The interest in this post has given me a better understanding of people's skill levels.
Just run them out... a "B" player would get out from here EVERY TIME... unless he missed a fairly simple shot. Its true that we have all missed simple shots at one time or another, but.... c'mon, really. We're giving this discussion more attention than we should.
Kelly_Guy said:
The interest in this post has given me a better understanding of people's skill levels.
Just run them out... a "B" player would get out from here EVERY TIME... unless he missed a fairly simple shot. Its true that we have all missed simple shots at one time or another, but.... c'mon, really. We're giving this discussion more attention than we should.
Shortside K said:
I think you sorta missed the point OR you're well beyond it. I posted these not because of their difficulty but because the majority of C-level players will have their occasional struggles with these. There are concepts here, really valueable concepts that can dramatically help someone's game.
In shot #1, the goal is to make sure you have an angle that will allow you to return to the end-rail for the 9-ball. You should take a moment to note where the straight angle is on the 8-ball and then make sure your cue-ball falls above it. Even though you may be left with a slightly longer shot than what you're comfortable with, it's better to leave yourself a little long than it is to leave yourself on the wrong side. How you get there is entirely up to you. I prefer a direct 1-rail path since it's easier to judge the speed that way.
In shot #2, there are a number of ways you can handle this. You have ball-in-hand and it's important to consider all pockets for the 7-ball. The 9-ball is sitting rather easy so I really just want to make sure I get down table without anything unpredictable happening. I'm going to pocket the 7-ball in the lower side-pocket with follow, creating a one-rail angle for the 8-ball so I can hit the upper side rail and naturally cross the width of the table for position on the 9-ball. If I'm feeling particularly comfortable with the angle, I may hit it a little firmer to create a z-pattern down to the 9-ball.
In shot #3, I am confident I can position for the 9-ball from ANYWHERE so my goal is to get a decent shot on the 8-ball in the side. I'm not going to get carried away at all. In fact, I'm perfectly alright going three rails around the table for position on the 9-ball simply because I'm confident I can avoid the scratch by over a diamond. Nothing fancy here at all. I want to stay off the rails and avoid any catastrophe that might happen from over/under hitting.
In my opinion, if you can eliminate a concern on every shot, you're going to put yourself in better position to get out. I actually feel I have a pretty strong cueball but I consider pocketing to be my biggest strength. I'm going to lean on my pocketing skills as often as possible and will make sure my decisions allow me to focus exclusively on it. That sounds a bit funny but a simple decision in planning can be all the difference. Play smart and it relieves your need to play perfect.
My three outs
That's the way I think everyone will play that one.
Believe it or not, I would actually try and get straight on the 8 ball, because I know I can control that draw perfect.
Dammit why the hell won't they work?!
Again, I'd try and get straight for the 8 ball, so I can just draw back for the 9.
That's the way I think everyone will play that one.
Believe it or not, I would actually try and get straight on the 8 ball, because I know I can control that draw perfect.
Dammit why the hell won't they work?!
Again, I'd try and get straight for the 8 ball, so I can just draw back for the 9.
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Shot 1:
Line up a pretty generous amount of angle, and use a touch of outside to make the CB come due North up the table. I'm trying to get to the side pockets or further here, because just rolling the 8 in from there gives natural can't-miss position on the 9. I'd much rather shoot the 8 from long (which is really not a problem) than fail to get on the correct side of it. One rail (as opposed to two following two rails) gets you there quicker, so there's less chance of falling short.
Shot 2:
I'd do this exactly like MHarris, following to the side rail and back after the 7, so I'm cutting the 8 to my left. Then just some right spin, and maybe also draw if you get too much angle, and you're automatically on the 9. I'd just have to make sure not to hit the 8 hard enough to scratch in the lower right corner (because there's some chance I'm going toward that pocket, and leaving it a little short won't be difficult or problematic).
Shot 3:
I'd also do this exactly like MHarris. The running english off the first rail turns into reverse off the next two rails, so there's a HUGE margin of error in the speed on this shot. Provided you hit the 7 ball thin, the more spin you have, the faster it gets to the 2nd rail, and the more it slows down off the 2nd and 3rd rails, meaning the speed variable sort of cancels out as long as you're spinning your ball, so I can basically guarantee the correct angle on the 8 to have the easiest natural follow for the 9. Shooting it this way, I bet I could coach a D- player to get out from here 10 times out of 10; the margins of error involved are just so big.
-Andrew
Line up a pretty generous amount of angle, and use a touch of outside to make the CB come due North up the table. I'm trying to get to the side pockets or further here, because just rolling the 8 in from there gives natural can't-miss position on the 9. I'd much rather shoot the 8 from long (which is really not a problem) than fail to get on the correct side of it. One rail (as opposed to two following two rails) gets you there quicker, so there's less chance of falling short.
Shot 2:
I'd do this exactly like MHarris, following to the side rail and back after the 7, so I'm cutting the 8 to my left. Then just some right spin, and maybe also draw if you get too much angle, and you're automatically on the 9. I'd just have to make sure not to hit the 8 hard enough to scratch in the lower right corner (because there's some chance I'm going toward that pocket, and leaving it a little short won't be difficult or problematic).
Shot 3:
I'd also do this exactly like MHarris. The running english off the first rail turns into reverse off the next two rails, so there's a HUGE margin of error in the speed on this shot. Provided you hit the 7 ball thin, the more spin you have, the faster it gets to the 2nd rail, and the more it slows down off the 2nd and 3rd rails, meaning the speed variable sort of cancels out as long as you're spinning your ball, so I can basically guarantee the correct angle on the 8 to have the easiest natural follow for the 9. Shooting it this way, I bet I could coach a D- player to get out from here 10 times out of 10; the margins of error involved are just so big.
-Andrew
Not everybody here is a B player, and any player could benefit from thinking about which position plays are highest percentage, even in these "simple" situations (well, maybe some players can't benefit from that).Shortside K said:
If it doesn't interest you, maybe another thread will - maybe one where you have something positive to add.
pj
chgo
Shortside K said:
This thread and threads like it have the potential for making you a better player regardless of your ability. Whether a "B" payer can get out from her EVERY TIME unless he missed a fairly simple shot, is not the point.
These discussions are about choosing the BEST SHOT, staying IN LINE, avoiding possible obstacles and using all of the choices to your BEST ADVANTAGE so that you can achieve MORE CONSISTENT RESULTS.
It sounds like you can play a little. Please join in the discussion and share with us some shots that may help our game.
Thanks,
JoeyA
Joe T
Well-known member
These shots are beautiful and well thought out and Jude, I?m stealing them to add to my classes. Yes B players can get out from here very often but I guarantee many of those outs will be done the wrong way and no they?re not right just because they got out because if it were the 1,2,3 to start the rack they would be dead by the 5 ball. This is an area of the game that would benefit more players than if you were to improve their aim, their stroke or whatever other physical skill we need as players. Having the ability to see as many reasonably options as possible and to then pick out the correct one for the right reason is a skill that can be learned rather easily once you realize you need to possess it. I?m amazed at how many players aren?t even close to possessing these skills even after many, many years of play and that goes for at least 90% of all B players, they?re B players more because of going the wrong way than they are because their stroke is off. If they learned to go the right way whenever possible they would actually be asking less of themselves in the area of aim, cb speed and stroke and therefore they would be able to do it more often which then might make them an ?A? player.
I think similar shots have already been posted, but here goes.
First shot: played with right hand spin, just trying to get high enough on the 8
Second shot: on unfamiliar equip, I would use this easy layout to try to get a feel for the slipperiness of the felt. The draw shot is hard to screw up and gives a natural angle.
Third shot: again, just trying to create a situation where I can roll the ball rather than have to judge the curves and slides of new simonis.
Nice layouts,
Aaron
First shot: played with right hand spin, just trying to get high enough on the 8
Second shot: on unfamiliar equip, I would use this easy layout to try to get a feel for the slipperiness of the felt. The draw shot is hard to screw up and gives a natural angle.
Third shot: again, just trying to create a situation where I can roll the ball rather than have to judge the curves and slides of new simonis.
Nice layouts,
Aaron
Aaron_S said:
Why not shoot the opposite side-pocket and follow? That way, you don't have to worry about a miscue.
Aaron_S said:
Another possibility, if the cloth worries you - you can go one rail and position for the 8-ball in the corner pocket.
Jude Rosenstock said:
As I said, just to get a feel for the slipperiness of the felt, and I like draw shots for that purpose better than follow shots because it's more likely to be just pure spin rather than any bounciness that sometimes comes with medium-firm to firm follow shots. Plus, since draw shots are harder to judge than follow shots, I feel it's more important to get in touch with that first.
B (and maybe some A) players need to recognize opportunities to get a feel for the equipment. It makes a lot more sense to do it when you have bih and an easy layout than to wait until you have a difficult situation to negotiate. That's really the only reason I play the draw shot here. If I need to shoot a 24-30 inch draw shot in the following rack, I'll feel more comfortable about it after shooting this shot.
Aaron
Aaron_S said:
Ok. I can't say I agree with you here - I don't think I'd use a game situation as an opportunity to test my draw but that's me. I suggested the follow approach simply because it yields an identical position with less risk.
Jude Rosenstock said:
Actually, the follow shot is what I would use. Except I wouldn't go to the rail, just follow down to the angle. That would preclude hitting a possibly bad rail and getting stuck.
The problem with the earlier suggestions, top/side pocket and rail, is that unless you get well below your angle, it could be difficult to reach if your right handed. The biggest factor on any strange table is, IMHO, is how the rails react. Taking chances coming off rails when you don't have to, is an unnecessary risk, unless your comfortable with the table.
Thank you Jude
Thank you so much for this thread! It's retarded that people would boo a thread like this. Not everyone is going to be at the same level of play and not-for-nothing, these kinda of threads are good for EVERYONE to read. Pool is a game that constantly keeps you on your toes. You never know when or how you are gonna learn something new and so it's when players get together and discuss this common interest that we all reap the benefits of each other's thoughts, opinions and experiences.
I wish more posts were like this rather than the arguing drama you see so often.
And for the record, the first and second diagrams seemed routine, but I still enjoyed the commentary. The third would give me ALOT of difficulty, so thank you Jude for letting me get some FREE and DIVERSE bits of information on how to execute it! Rep to you (like you need it!!!) LOL
Jude Rosenstock said:
Thank you so much for this thread! It's retarded that people would boo a thread like this. Not everyone is going to be at the same level of play and not-for-nothing, these kinda of threads are good for EVERYONE to read. Pool is a game that constantly keeps you on your toes. You never know when or how you are gonna learn something new and so it's when players get together and discuss this common interest that we all reap the benefits of each other's thoughts, opinions and experiences.
I wish more posts were like this rather than the arguing drama you see so often.
And for the record, the first and second diagrams seemed routine, but I still enjoyed the commentary. The third would give me ALOT of difficulty, so thank you Jude for letting me get some FREE and DIVERSE bits of information on how to execute it! Rep to you (like you need it!!!) LOL
Jude Rosenstock said:
Well, it may not be the right shot for a C or below player, but for B and above players, who should really be out regardless of where the cueball ends up for the 8, and who should almost never miscue on a simple draw shot such as this, I think it's a perfectly acceptable time to do something that puts you more in touch with the playing conditions.
I liken it to driving in icy weather, where one might turn into a deserted parking lot (where the risk of hitting someone or something is very small) and punch the accelerator to see exactly how much torque it takes to make the tires break loose from the pavement. Getting this information earlier rather than later might be what keeps you out of a wreck.
Like you, the follow shot is what I would choose if I were already comfortable with the equipment (which, btw, is what I personally would consider a normal game situation). In a situation where I've had no play on the equipment, however, I might do something a little unorthodox if it bears little risk, as I feel this shot does (again, for B and above players), and offers an opportunity to feel the table out.
Call me crazy, but I might also opt to run out the last 4 balls of a rack instead of shooting a wired 6/9 combo if the out is easy and I'm trying to get a feel for the table. Sure, there's an inherent risk involved with opting for the runout, but the information you garner from running those 4 balls may mean the difference between breaking and running the next rack and breaking and stalling out on the first shot that requires good position. It's a simple concept, really, and one that I have seen great players employ more than once.
I'm sure that, like practically everything, it's not for everyone, however, and it's this civilized exchange of different opinions and ideas that make scenarios like this so useful to the AZB community. Thanks again for the layouts.
As always, JMHO
Aaron
RiverCity said:
Well, in terms of the value of generic concept, my vote goes strongly to RiverCity here.
I can't figure out these diagrams
so I'll say this. In #1 there is no need to either go two rails or impart inside OR outside english to this shot. I mean folks.... we have ball in hand here. While its true that on many shots you should opt to play position "along the position line" as opposed to across it, #1 is an excellent candidate for the exception to the rule. Going the two rails with inside is totally unnecessary and can lead to not only overshooting or undershooting the shot but can add a difficulty factor to the shot itself. Remember, ball in hand. RiverCity places it and plays it the simplest, most effective way.
#2. Same thing, he imparts just enough roll on the shot to make it able to shoot without stretching. If you must do something extra, Draw is DEFINITELY not it. You could go to the side rail and out on two natural angles rolling the ball, but I still like RiverCity's way.
#3 is also just fine, I'd only add that the angle you place on the 7 should keep in mind the potential for a scratch in the top left corner if you overshoot. Therefore, with that in mind a simple and slight angle adjustment is all thats needed.
I will say that in #2 the potential for a C player to disregard the proper side of the pocket to play the 8 in, can result in coming up bad on the nine or even scratching in the side. It's common for this shot to present an unexpected outcome if you are not focused on the tangent angles and hit the 8 too thick. For that reason, I'd give my second option an equally good choice rating. Which is roll to the side rail and out for the 8 if thats more comfortable. But in any case, certainly no draw on #2 for any uneasy player.
3andstop said:
Although this isn't the way I would play it, I do like how you point out positioning with your physical limitations in mind. It's not a shot you need to be terribly close to and it's important that you can effectively form a solid bridge. Nice job.