How would you rule in this situation?
- Thread starter kobyp
- Start date
RunoutalloverU said:
actually, I just stated the obvious. and that your perspective is different from mine and some other people here. and you are very most welcome !
RunoutalloverU said:
I agree that this is an important distinction, and for that it would be unfair to assume that you are dishonest for not calling your own fouls.
However, think it through a little more about the practicality of catching fouls and calling them on the other person... In other sports, (supposedly) neutral refs are trained to watch the players like hawks. In pool tournaments, there is usually often only one ref (TD) to share between multiple tables and he is also performing other duties at the same time.
Basically what I'm getting at, and what I said in the other post, was that if I'm playing someone who will not call their own fouls, I should have every right to stand where ever I want while he is shooting, including right next to him peeking over his shoulder, or close to the table in his line of site, etc. I think both players should just agree that that's nonsense, and we can trust each other to call fouls on ourselves.
If not, let your opponent put on a striped shirt and have at it!
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Hail Mary Shot said:if this was so, then expect a lot of fights happening in pool. I guess that must be a pretty sight for you. pretty good for pool also, ey?
Oh so if a guy doesn't call a foul on himself he's going to get beaten up??
And THAT is a sport that you think deserves to be held to a higher standard of morality and sportsmanship than nearly any other sport???
Alrighty then.
But just do me one favor. Just name me the major sports where you think that the player/teams call fouls on themselves and if you can't think of any (other than golf...which is WAY overrated for doing so) then tell me why you think pool should be held to a higher standard.
And just to help you along, below I name the sports that CANNOT be on your list for obvious reasons.
Football
Baseball
Basketball
Hockey
Tennis
Bowling
Soccer
Speed Skating
Gymnastics
Polo
Rugby
Horse Racing
Vollyball
Swimming
Lacrosse
Badminton
Ping Pong
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Cuebacca said:I agree that this is an important distinction, and for that it would be unfair to assume that you are dishonest for not calling your own fouls.
However, think it through a little more about the practicality of catching fouls and calling them on the other person... In other sports, (supposedly) neutral refs are trained to watch the players like hawks. In pool tournaments, there is usually often only one ref (TD) to share between multiple tables and he is also performing other duties at the same time.
Basically what I'm getting at, and what I said in the other post, was that if I'm playing someone who will not call their own fouls, I should have every right to stand where ever I want while he is shooting, including right next to him peeking over his shoulder, or close to the table in his line of site, etc. I think both players should just agree that that's nonsense, and we can trust each other to call fouls on ourselves.
If not, let your opponent put on a striped shirt and have at it!
No,no,no! You cannot and don't HAVE to stand peering over your opponent's shoulder in an area ref or TD situation. If there is a shot that would require such scrutiny you have the RIGHT to call in the ref/TD.
You are just carrying the argument to an unfortunate extreme. The thread started with an example of a player WHO SCRATCHED ON THE 8 BALL!!
After which his opponent retrieved the CB from the pocket...took dead aim on the 8...AND MISSED for God's sake!!!! ASnd then allowed his opponent to pocket the 8 himself!!!! LOL
No special vantage point was necessary to detect that situation or the vast majority of other situations...like cue stick fouls. And this all realted to a TEAM event when there were or should have been several teammates sitting in different chairs and therefore, having several different vantage points.
Look...if the player or teammates don't care enough about the match to WATCH IT closely then they deserve whatever they get!
Regards,
Jim
av84fun said:
that is why it's called POOL and not any other sport. DUH !!!
easy-e said:Can't we all just agree to disagree
well said, some people here just cant accept that others don't agree with them.
Hail Mary Shot said:well said, some people here just cant accept that others don't agree with them.
I for one, don't have any problem accepting that people disagree with me from time to time. Reasonable people can and often do disagree.
But the fact of disagreement is not a reason for either party to change their opinions....is it?
The more troubling issue is when people won't change their minds in the face of overwhelming logic and/or elect not to respond to questions that would render such illogic irrefutable.
Like, for example...who here thinks that with respect to self-called fouls, pool should be held to a higher standard of morality or sportsmanship than nearly all other major sports...and why?
Regards,
Jim
Went out to play tonight...
Gambled some playing 9 ball...
I played on air.
I spit in his chalk.
I double moved the coin.
I double hit a few balls.
I hit some balls out of order and didn't get called for it.
I dropped my cue when he was shooting the 9.
I lit a cig right in front of him while he was down on a shot.
I blew smoke over the table to hurt his eyes.
I jarred his drink.
I still lost, but its ok, I ran out the door and didn't pay.
I think I almost have this down. Is there anything else I need to do to become a "Pool Player"
Gambled some playing 9 ball...
I played on air.
I spit in his chalk.
I double moved the coin.
I double hit a few balls.
I hit some balls out of order and didn't get called for it.
I dropped my cue when he was shooting the 9.
I lit a cig right in front of him while he was down on a shot.
I blew smoke over the table to hurt his eyes.
I jarred his drink.
I still lost, but its ok, I ran out the door and didn't pay.
I think I almost have this down. Is there anything else I need to do to become a "Pool Player"
Hail Mary Shot said:well said, some people here just cant accept that others don't agree with them.
Accepting you don't agree isnt the issue. I can't say I don't think the sun is hot because I don't like sunburns. I mean I guess you can say anything you want, but if you want to be someone with any integrity (which is why this is so important to begin with right?) So if you don't want to come off looking like an illogical fool, you should say ok, you should call fouls on yourself because....and then give a good reason, a logical reason, a reason that actually makes sense. Now I expect you haven't given one because....drum roll please.....THERE ISN'T ONE. So have some integrity like you so desperately desire the self foul caller to have, and say you know, what I believe doesn't make sense, and how do you like that! Then I can accept you as having some shred of respectibility until then...
av84fun said:
Av84fun, sir, my last few posts were inspired by kaznj's story of excellent sportsmanship from post 65. In this post, it was shown that you never can be 100% sure that a given shot will not require the scrutiny that only the shooter has.
I admit, in his example, someone other than the shooter saw the foul from probably a seated position. However, how can I be sure that on one of your practice strokes, you will not accidentally move the cue ball 1/4 of a millimeter? That's a foul I'd be unlikely to see from my seat.
I do call those fouls on myself, by the way, on the rare occasion that they occur. Usually my opponent says, "Huh? What happened?". LOL.
Why do I waste my time trying to change bar banger mentality.
RunoutalloverU said:
very well then. I have played different types of people. one that calls fouls on themselves and one that doesn't call foul on themselves(regardless if you saw it or not).
point one: first scenario, playing with people who calls fouls on themselves. no problem with that. no arguments transpired. happy relationship, good atmosphere, interested in playing with those kind of people next time. good for me, good for them, people are encourage to play each other.
point 2, 2nd scenario. playing with people who obviously fouled, you called them, they refused and deny. equals argument (this can escalate further). bad feeling towards each other, no interest in playing those people again.was the second scenario that encouraging for people to play pool? did it make you feel happy? did it create a healthy atmosphere?
oh, you dont have to agree with me. that's my point. with regards to legality, I have also a viable reason for it. not just unsportmanlike or morality, but also concerning rules. we can debate on this all we want, but I tell you that neither of us will budge in.
Call me a boyscout, I'll take that as a compliment. thank you very much.
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RunoutalloverU said:
BAr Bangers don't know what a foul is and they refuse to believe that they did in fact fouled. LOL !
I would call the foul on myself because, when I look in the mirror every morning, I don't want to question the quality of the person looking back at me.
Maybe you should call the foul on yourself because...YOU FOULED.
What difference does it make if the other guy noticed? You still fouled.
Maybe you should call the foul because...wait for it...YOU WANT TO WIN BY OUTPLAYING YOUR OPPONENT!!!
Who cares if other people in this sport or other sports have no morals. You should care about YOUR morals.
If you chose to live your life with a certain amount of moral flexibility, then so be it. You are not the first and I am sure won't be the last.I will not try to impose my morals on you. I will however, try to avoid you and your kind as much as possible.
You can learn alot about a person over a game of pool or a round of golf.
Jimbo
Maybe you should call the foul on yourself because...YOU FOULED.
What difference does it make if the other guy noticed? You still fouled.
Maybe you should call the foul because...wait for it...YOU WANT TO WIN BY OUTPLAYING YOUR OPPONENT!!!
Who cares if other people in this sport or other sports have no morals. You should care about YOUR morals.
If you chose to live your life with a certain amount of moral flexibility, then so be it. You are not the first and I am sure won't be the last.I will not try to impose my morals on you. I will however, try to avoid you and your kind as much as possible.
You can learn alot about a person over a game of pool or a round of golf.
Jimbo
Cuebacca said:
First, as I have stated, you and I would do the same thing by calling fouls on ourselves...possibly for different reasons but the end result would be the same.
But I object to the assumption that "sportsmanship" requires anything other than adherence to the rules of the sport being played. There is NO RULE requiring self-called fouls.
If your sensibilities lead you to think there should be such a rule, then you should write the BCA and the WPA and express your views.
But by attempting to impose a PERSONAL definition that sportsmanship in in pool requires self-called fouls, you are at the same time condemning virtually every other competitor in almost all other sports as being unsportsmanlike which is a gross abuse of logic and is quite insulting to revered sports champions.
As I have asked others, what sports can you name that require self-called fouls and since you cannot name many, why do you think that pool players should be held to a higher standard of sportsmanship than the players in nearly all other major and minor sports?
Even in straight pool where INTENTIONAL fouls are commonplace, can you cite from your own personal knowledge, any instance where, after an intentional foul, if that player's score was not reduced by 1 point, that the player voluntarily announced that fact and saw to it that the score was corrected?
And please note that the WSRs re: 14.1 also provide that if play continues after a foul, it is deemed not to have occurred and therefore, no point could be properly be deducted for an intentional foul if a subsequent shot took place.
Bottom line, if you don't like the rules...which is your right...I suiggest that you work to get the rules changed and think it is unfortunate to condemn others for being poor sportsmen who obey the rules...as they are...to the letter and behave in no less a sportsmanlike fashion the virtually all other sportsmen.
Respectfully,
Jim
av84fun said:
Isn't it "unsportsmanlike" not to shake hands after a match? I always hear people say that. I have never seen that as a rule though.
What if you lean over a shot and completely block your opponent's view of the shot, and foul? If he had no chance to see the foul would you call it?
av84fun said:
you do know that when you scratch on the 8, you automatically lose the game. did that person obey that rule?
oh, nevermind that. you have your own reason to disagree on disobeying that rule. nuff said.