how would you shoot this shot?

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What I was saying was a true to form "kill shot" is meant to maximize stroke power but minimize energy transfer to the OB. For that effect to be at it's maximum, the CB must have zero rotation at the point of contact to the OB. If it's still spinning backward then it's still slowing down. If it's rolling forward, then it's regained inertia.

Yes, I agree that the term "kill" is to describe the effect on the CB.

Question out of pure interest. Assuming a straight on shot, and the OB had to travel a distance so that rolling the CB wasn't an option. If you had to have the CB travel 1" beyond point of contact with an OB. Would you use a forced follow, or attempt a "kill" shot..? Not baiting, just curious... I would force follow.
Regarding inertia I don't understand your comment. Hit the shot so that the cb stops dead at exactly the right time (contact with ob). This is contact with a sliding cb. Hit the shot again the same way except a little lighter so that forward roll begins before contact. In this situation the cue ball will transfer LESS energy to the ob, not more, because it started with less energy. When the cb regains forward roll after sliding inertia does not increase. Maybe you mean to say something else but it isn't clear. I'm not saying you are wrong it's just that I don't think I know what you are trying to say. To me, if it is still spinning backward then you hit too hard. If it is rolling forward then not hard enough. The only negative with that is that the cue ball might go off line from an off center hit when the stun wears off and the cb starts rolling again.

Regarding the second point I'm afraid of what I could call stun follow, just a bit above center and firm. I prefer to go for a stop shot and then raise the tip just a hair to get the slight follow, like the drag shot. When I try it your way and do it wrong the cb goes forward 3 feet lol. I guess if I practiced it I would get good at it, but I'm not sure if there is an advantage doing it that way or not.
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We absolutely need more clearly defined definitions for certain types of shots. Maybe Dr Dave can come to the rescue with a video.
I think he already has stuff on different videos but it would be nice to have everything on one video which could be referred to
when questions arise.
There've been multiple threads about what a kill/drag shot is and the same things are brought up every time. He could shoot a shot
and say this is an example of a kill shot, also known as a drag shot or a drag draw shot, etc.
Another that there's been confusion about is force follow. I'm sure Dave could figure out a few more to throw in there.
As far as the shot being talked about here, Fran's calling it a kill shot, BBB a drag draw, I call it a drag shot. JV seems to think
it's not a kill shot because there may be some CB movement after contact, I guess. In this case it's kind of irrelevant because the
term kill is referring exclusively to CB speed. It's strictly for avoidance of roll off while at the same time maintaining pocket
speed.
Couple things. I myself would not call what we're talking about here a kill shot. Reason being, while technically correct, there
are a number of ways to kill CB speed, this shot is just one of them. I just think drag or drag/draw is a more apt description.
That aside, I would not shoot this particular shot that way. Also, IUTB rich is correct in his assertion that any good player is
very unlikely to shoot this shot with a high center ball.
What I was saying was a true to form "kill shot" is meant to maximize stroke power but minimize energy transfer to the OB. For that effect to be at it's maximum, the CB must have zero rotation at the point of contact to the OB. If it's still spinning backward then it's still slowing down. If it's rolling forward, then it's regained inertia.

Yes, I agree that the term "kill" is to describe the effect on the CB.

Question out of pure interest. Assuming a straight on shot, and the OB had to travel a distance so that rolling the CB wasn't an option. If you had to have the CB travel 1" beyond point of contact with an OB. Would you use a forced follow, or attempt a "kill" shot..? Not baiting, just curious... I would force follow.

thread is going off-topic but I like it..good convo
semantics are definitely a thing
agree "kill" seems more the result than the technique
because the concept appears the same either way
hit below center, someplace, and with any speed
if cb slows down much of the way to the ob, it "drags"
if when the cb hits the ob and the cb pretty much stops
it's effectively "killed"
-?

speaking of efren
there's a 90's match out there commentated by varner
where nicky refers to effie's shot as "a marvelous kill shot"
even more off-topic, but I love nick's commentating..man can really do it all

JV, to your shot
I'd like to see it diagramed
but if I understand you right, the cb and ob are close- ?
that makes the drag shot tough..I think
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
OK, I guess you're going to force me to post this old diagram again.

The terminology is mine - yours may differ. At least my terminology has a chart.

pj
chgo

dragdraw.jpg
 

The_JV

Local_Pro
OK, I guess you're going to force me to post this old diagram again.

The terminology is mine - yours may differ. At least my terminology has a chart.

pj
chgo

View attachment 581556
I like the diagram... My issue is with the "stop shot". In theory the same shot can be performed with a strong center ball CB strike. If you renamed it "kill shot" then I think you nailed it. ;)

The notion of the "stun rollthrough" is practical enough I suppose. I can envision circumstance that would require such a hit.

Now the idea of playing a "drag follow" perplexes me. I can't think of a situation wherein attempting this over the a standard rolling ball would be the better choice. That said, I do play extreme cuts with heavy draw in an effort to limit CB roll after contact. In these cases the draw does not alter the post contact path much if at all.

Again, great diagram. You really do put a lot of effort into the theoretical aspect of this game
 

The_JV

Local_Pro
Regarding inertia I don't understand your comment. Hit the shot so that the cb stops dead at exactly the right time (contact with ob). This is contact with a sliding cb. Hit the shot again the same way except a little lighter so that forward roll begins before contact. In this situation the cue ball will transfer LESS energy to the ob, not more, because it started with less energy. When the cb regains forward roll after sliding inertia does not increase. Maybe you mean to say something else but it isn't clear. I'm not saying you are wrong it's just that I don't think I know what you are trying to say. To me, if it is still spinning backward then you hit too hard. If it is rolling forward then not hard enough. The only negative with that is that the cue ball might go off line from an off center hit when the stun wears off and the cb starts rolling again.
I think you're right, and I'm saying it wrong. I just can't of a better way to word it at the moment...lol.

As mentioned earlier. "Kill" is about CB control. However the point in killing a shot is to maximize power in the stroke while minimizing the energy transmitted to the OB. It's quite possible that I'm misinterpreting the forward roll after contact as a greater momentum. Now that I read that back, it's most likely what I'm doing
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't get what the big resistance is to shooting this shot softly and very low, where the cb holds the line and goes practically nowhere after impact and the ob rolls softly into the pocket. It's done all the time on game ball. Geez... you'd think I wrote something like shoot the shot while standing on one foot, singing --- oh I don't know ---- Auld Lang Syne, while gripping your pool cue like a javelin.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't get what the big resistance is to shooting this shot softly and very low, where the cb holds the line and goes practically nowhere after impact and the ob rolls softly into the pocket. It's done all the time on game ball. Geez... you'd think I wrote something like shoot the shot while standing on one foot, singing --- oh I don't know ---- Auld Lang Syne, while gripping your pool cue like a javelin.
Is the main purpose for shooting that way to eliminate cue ball run off on a less than perfect table?
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think you're right, and I'm saying it wrong. I just can't of a better way to word it at the moment...lol.

As mentioned earlier. "Kill" is about CB control. However the point in killing a shot is to maximize power in the stroke while minimizing the energy transmitted to the OB. It's quite possible that I'm misinterpreting the forward roll after contact as a greater momentum. Now that I read that back, it's most likely what I'm doing
Seems to me it doesn't matter much what exactly the cb is doing after contact as long as the ob went in at pocket speed and the cue ball was struck with enough force to prevent roll off. Maybe there is an optimal way to do that. Fran says hit near max low, so maybe that's it. I think you need a solid stroke to do that without having the cb move left or right when the spin wears off near contact.
 

The_JV

Local_Pro
Seems to me it doesn't matter much what exactly the cb is doing after contact as long as the ob went in at pocket speed and the cue ball was struck with enough force to prevent roll off. Maybe there is an optimal way to do that. Fran says hit near max low, so maybe that's it. I think you need a solid stroke to do that without having the cb move left or right when the spin wears off near contact.
In the case of the shot example posted at the beginning of this thread, I would completely agree about not being overly concerned about a little roll off after contact. I will say that a kill shot is a fantasic why to fractionally slide the CB around with confident stroke. It's really powerful if you have the stroke to perform it "correctly".

You comment about the CB coming off line with inadvertent siding when the spin dies is imo the biggest pitfall with such a shot. Not so much in the shot example, but generally speaking when CB placement is a concern.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
You comment about the CB coming off line with inadvertent siding when the spin dies is imo the biggest pitfall with such a shot.
With the OB near/on the rail I frequently play shots with some slow outside when I want the CB to travel only minimally after contact. The masse curve (not what I'd call rolloff) right before contact just has to be anticipated and adjusted for.

pj
chgo
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is the main purpose for shooting that way to eliminate cue ball run off on a less than perfect table?
That's one reason. There are a few. Another reason is that it allows the player to take a full stroke without concern of losing the cue ball. Cue ball speed is a priority, but let's not forget pocketing the ball. Top spin shots can be tricky. Stroke speed becomes an absolute priority. If there's any anxiety at all with it being game winning ball, it can easily manifest into a poke stroke with the player trying to control the speed unconsciously by holding back his stroke, as opposed to a kill shot where the player has a lot more leeway to take a full stroke.

Through teaching, I've run into many players with a poke stroke. The thing they all seem to have in common is that they shoot a lot of top spin shots. Poke strokes often result in missed shots and loss of cb control. Even the best players at times can run the risk of holding back their stroke to control a top spin shot. For definition purposes: By poke stroke, I mean a poorly timed stroke where the player jabs at the cue ball with very little or no follow through.
 
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The_JV

Local_Pro
With the OB near/on the rail I frequently play shots with some slow outside when I want the CB to travel only minimally after contact. The masse curve (not what I'd call rolloff) right before contact just has to be anticipated and adjusted for.
Definitely..., I do as well, and anticipating that takes good practice and familiarity with the equipment /conditions.
 

The_JV

Local_Pro
All of the hits shown on the diagram are common ways to control the carom angle on cut shots too.
IMHO, and I'll assume you'll take this as you have most of my opinions...lol. Performing that "drag follow" shot, is common way to hit a shot badly. If it is indeed as common as you say, it stands to reason as to why the vast majority of players struggle.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
IMHO, and I'll assume you'll take this as you have most of my opinions...lol. Performing that "drag follow" shot, is common way to hit a shot badly. If it is indeed as common as you say, it stands to reason as to why the vast majority of players struggle.
I agree (surprise!). All of those shots can be duplicated by hitting a little harder and higher than shown in the diagram - the CB slides rather than backspins, but "turns over" to forward roll at the appropriate time. Still a technique that requires lots of practice to master, but the stroke speed is more familiar to most players. The CB will, of course, travel farther after contact on a cut shot.

pj
chgo
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fran or someone mentioned earlier about masse and/or swerve. I just wanted to throw out this drawing I did awhile back. It shows that the downward pointing blue arrow is what causes swerve, which is a rotation in the direction of the curved blue arrow. This illustrates that left or right english alone only causes rotation around the vertical axis and does not cause swerve. Hitting with english and a perfectly level cue will not give you swerve (or not enough to mention). Many people don't realize that by simply angling the cue downward a little you are introducing that downward pointing arrow and causing the ball to travel along the blue line.
Cue Ball.jpg
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fran or someone mentioned earlier about masse and/or swerve. I just wanted to throw out this drawing I did awhile back. It shows that the downward pointing blue arrow is what causes swerve, which is a rotation in the direction of the curved blue arrow. This illustrates that left or right english alone only causes rotation around the vertical axis and does not cause swerve. Hitting with english and a perfectly level cue will not give you swerve (or not enough to mention). Many people don't realize that by simply angling the cue downward a little you are introducing that downward pointing arrow and causing the ball to travel along the blue line.
View attachment 581582
Yes, thanks. Where I think I went wrong back then was that I assumed that once side spin interacted with normal roll, the result would be a swerve. Bob pointed out that I was wrong about that.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Hitting with english and a perfectly level cue will not give you swerve (or not enough to mention). Many people don't realize that by simply angling the cue downward a little you are introducing that downward pointing arrow and causing the ball to travel along the blue line.
And many people don't realize that it is usually not possible to play with a perfectly level cue when applying side spin.

To have the cue level, the center of the bumper has to be the same height above the surface of the table as the center of the tip is above the surface of the table. To find the angle of elevation, just take the difference in inches of those two heights above the surface of the table and that is the elevation in degrees.

That is shown here:

CropperCapture[242].jpg
 
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One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think that something may be being over looked here.
Thru the whole rack your telling your mind to make the OB and put the Q ball there.
You did this 8 times and now your down to the last ball and you give your mind one instruction.........make the last ball. The thing of this is your mind is waiting for the last part of the instruction..........where do you want the Q ball?
I would play the last ball with low left and pretend that I'm getting shape on another ball on the rail below the pocketed ball. :)

John
 
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