how would you shoot this shot?

bbb said:
Can you explain what you mean hy kill shpt please?
why not a medium speed rolling ball?
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A kill shot is intended to kill the speed of the cb while allowing the player to still shoot the shot with some authority, assuring the cb will hold the line to the ob. I'm not a fan of rolling balls unless I have to. With a kill shot, sometimes the result can be a stun, where the cb is sliding at impact and sometimes the result can be a slight run through if it picks up one or two revolutions of roll before impact. The idea is to kill the speed while still holding the line with some authority and then not allowing the cue ball to travel more than a few inches, if at all. This also results in a softer hit on the ob, helping in pocketing. It's a win-win shot. The only other way to get a softer hit on the ob is to roll the cb, but you don't get the benefit of holding the line as you do with a kill shot. Whether or not the cb stuns on impact has to do with the distance between the two balls. You're looking for optimal speed here which is why a slight run through is acceptable.
 
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FranCrimi said:
A kill shot is intended to kill the speed of the cb while allowing the player to still shoot the shot with some authority, assuring the cb will hold the line to the ob. I'm not a fan of rolling balls unless I have to. With a kill shot, sometimes the result can be a stun, where the cb is sliding at impact and sometimes the result can be a slight run through if it picks up one or two revolutions of roll before impact. The idea is to kill the speed while still holding the line with some authority and then not allowing the cue ball to travel more than a few inches, if at all. This also results in a softer hit on the ob, helping in pocketing. It's a win-win shot. The only other way to get a softer hit on the ob is to roll the cb, but you don't get the benefit of holding the line as you do with a kill shot. Whether or not the cb stuns on impact has to do with the distance between the two balls. You're looking for optimal speed here which is why a slight run through is acceptable.
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Thanks for the reply fran
Do you agree this type of stroke / shot can be called drag draw?
 
A kill shot, at this distance has it's problems, why?
When the kill/slide/skidding of the cue ball unwinds/thus allowing whitey to start rolling naturally (like at a 12 o'clock high cue ball) it will change forward direction (shot line) slightly left, or right unless hit perfectly dead center.
If the balls are dirty and the kill unwinds/releases (meaning the ball is now rolling on it's own naturally) the shot line will move left or right ''slightly''. If not hit PERFECT.

Thxs Fran for ''shot line'' term.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
lol

So a rolling CB is especially prone to kicks? I’m sure you won’t mind telling us why...

pj
chgo
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Nope I wouldn't... However what I said was "Never roll a shot unless required. You're begging for a kick / skid / whatever you want to call it". No where did I say a rolling CB is especially prone to kicks.

I'm more interested in seeing how you defend your opinion. My experience lately is that you'll simply discount any explanation that contradicts your preconceived thoughts with nothing more than, "I don't think you're right".
 
Island Drive said:
A kill shot, at this distance has it's problems, why?
When the kill/slide/skidding of the cue ball unwinds/thus allowing whitey to start rolling naturally (like at a 12 o'clock high cue ball) it will change forward direction (shot line) slightly left, or right unless hit perfectly dead center.
If the balls are dirty and the kill unwinds/releases (meaning the ball is now rolling on it's own naturally) the shot line will move left or right ''slightly''. If not hit PERFECT.

Thxs Fran for ''shot line'' term.
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Agreed... Also begging for problems with a "kill" shot.

The cue action a correctly performed kill shot takes requires more skill than the average bear has.
 
Island Drive said:
A kill shot, at this distance has it's problems, why?
When the kill/slide/skidding of the cue ball unwinds/thus allowing whitey to start rolling naturally (like at a 12 o'clock high cue ball) it will change forward direction (shot line) slightly left, or right unless hit perfectly dead center.
If the balls are dirty and the kill unwinds/releases (meaning the ball is now rolling on it's own naturally) the shot line will move left or right ''slightly''. If not hit PERFECT.

Thxs Fran for ''shot line'' term.
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You're quite welcome for the 'shot line' term.

But one of the things I learned from our scientific billiard community here is that a rolling ball doesn't swerve just due to side spin, but due to the Coreolis effect. Maybe our scientists here can enlighten us a little more about when that change of direction occurs. But in the case of a kill shot, the release from slide to roll occurs just at or just prior to impact. I'm not so sure how much change of direction, if any, can occur during that transition so close to impact, particularly with unintended side spin, which would probably be a small amount to begin with.
 
The_JV said:
Agreed... Also begging for problems with a "kill" shot.

The cue action a correctly performed kill shot takes requires more skill than the average bear has.
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No offense meant here but a kill shot is a basic shot that players should know how to execute. If they can't, then they should learn.
 
The_JV said:
...what I said was "Never roll a shot unless required. You're begging for a kick / skid / whatever you want to call it". No where did I say a rolling CB is especially prone to kicks.]
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So all kinds of hits "beg for a kick"?

Sorry, I didn't realize English isn't your first language.

pj
chgo
 
FranCrimi said:
...one of the things I learned from our scientific billiard community here is that a rolling ball doesn't swerve just due to side spin, but due to the Coreolis effect.
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My understanding is that rolling balls (with side spin) swerve because they have some masse spin, created by hitting downward on the cue ball when applying side spin. I'm not familiar with the term "Coreolis effect" - although I'm familiar with Coreolis' technique for aiming masse shots.

pj
chgo
 
FranCrimi said:
No offense meant here but a kill shot is a basic shot that players should know how to execute. If they can't, then they should learn.
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Not at all Fran...

My take on it is this: A kill shot is different than stun. To perform a kill shot correctly. You need to strike the CB with enough force and spin over whatever distance to have in essense be a "dead" ball (rotationally speaking) when it contacts the OB. Any CB movement either forward or reverse after the OB has been struck, is not a kill shot. The idea being is to hit the CB with more than OB pocket weight, but develop only pocket weight transmission of power to the OB.

A stun shot is as basic as it can be and I fully agree that everyone early on should have it down. A kill shot requires knowledge of the cloth, the balls, and the amount of spin / stroke power required to cover the distance to the OB before the CB becomes "dead". I wouldn't expect the average player to have a handle on all those variables and how to compensate for them. Increased distance between the CB and OB is what makes a kill shot difficult.

Maybe I'm off on a different train of thought in regards to what a "kill" shot is.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
My understanding is that rolling balls (with side spin) swerve because they have some masse spin, created by hitting downward on the cue ball when applying side spin. I'm not familiar with the term "Coreolis effect" - although I'm familiar with Coreolis' technique for aiming masse shots.

pj
chgo
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Well, I don't really know what you mean, but I recall that I was corrected when I posted a few years back that a rolling ball changes direction due to the effect of side spin being applied to it, which is what I think Bill was trying to say in his post.
 
The_JV said:
Not at all Fran...

My take on it is this: A kill shot is different than stun. To perform a kill shot correctly. You need to strike the CB with enough force and spin over whatever distance to have in essense be a "dead" ball (rotationally speaking) when it contacts the OB. Any CB movement either forward or reverse after the OB has been struck, is not a kill shot. The idea being is to hit the CB with more than OB pocket weight, but develop only pocket weight transmission of power to the OB.

A stun shot is as basic as it can be and I fully agree that everyone early on should have it down. A kill shot requires knowledge of the cloth, the balls, and the amount of spin / stroke power required to cover the distance to the OB before the CB becomes "dead". I wouldn't expect the average player to have a handle on all those variables and how to compensate for them. Increased distance between the CB and OB is what makes a kill shot difficult.

Maybe I'm off on a different train of thought in regards to what a "kill" shot is.
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I understand your point. Maybe it is a matter of definition. As I posted before, a kill shot can be either a stun or have a slight roll through. It depends of course, on the speed and distance. If it's a short distance, it can definitely result in a stun. Remember, the objective of a kill shot is to kill the speed of the cue ball on it's way to the object ball, while still assuring that the cue ball will hold it's line to the object ball.

As for your comment on level of expertise --- sure --- it is a shot that has to be practiced in order to be executed properly, but the question asked here was, "How would you shoot this shot?" Should I have dumbed-down my answer so that beginners can relate, or should I just answer the question and hopefully share some knowledge with them that way?
 
The_JV said:
A kill shot is different than stun. To perform a kill shot correctly. You need to strike the CB with enough force and spin over whatever distance to have in essense be a "dead" ball (rotationally speaking) when it contacts the OB.
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What you've described as a kill shot is exactly the definition of stun.

pj
chgo
 
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FranCrimi said:
You're quite welcome for the 'shot line' term.

But one of the things I learned from our scientific billiard community here is that a rolling ball doesn't swerve just due to side spin, but due to the Coreolis effect. Maybe our scientists here can enlighten us a little more about when that change of direction occurs. But in the case of a kill shot, the release from slide to roll occurs just at or just prior to impact. I'm not so sure how much change of direction, if any, can occur during that transition so close to impact, particularly with unintended side spin, which would probably be a small amount to begin with
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Not swerve , but when the unintended ''off center'' cueing is applied the cue ball always ''unwinds/ releases and starts it's natural movement, rolling straight....that moment I call the transition period'' it's a slight off center cueing....that, when the spin is gone causes this when, whitey does what it has to do.... creating the natural shot line.

On some touch shots at close quarters, I'll intentionally hit a high cue ball slightly left or right, and when that L or R ''releases'' it creates a shot line either left or right once the spin is not longer effecting cue ball roll. That's when whitey goes from some side spin to no side spin, it also stuns the cue ball during it's transition from spin to no spin, and cause's a slight direction change to the cue ball forward movement during THAT moment, from an off center hit, to it's beginning of it's natural shot line rolling.

That change of direction occurs, when the intended off center cueing is gone no longer effecting cue ball roll, it then/releases/stops it's side spin, and whitey transitions to rolling straight/natural and creating the shot line from the ball Having to roll naturally.

I'm not very good at explaining my thoughts via the keyboard, but on a table it's simple, show and tell.
 
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Fran
To me drag draw is you hit low on the cue ball ie “draw”
but at a speed that the reverse wears off before it gets to the onject ball so it converts to a rolling ball or dead ball as it gets to the object ball
Ie the cue ball sort of drags across the table until the reverse comes off the ball before it gets to the cue ball
 
FranCrimi said:
Remember, the objective of a kill shot is to kill the speed of the cue ball on it's way to the object ball, while still assuring that the cue ball will hold it's line to the object ball.
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Definitely... However if OB has been reached and the CB is rolling in either direction then in theory your not performing a "kill shot" to it's 100% effectiveness. I'm really splitting hairs here. Can you hit a kill shot and roll slightly either forward or back...?..., of course. The point is to minimize OB spd, but still hit the CB with authority as you have already stated. If the CB is rotating at contact then it's travelling faster and imparting more spd into the OB then it could have been. That's my point, and that timing that dead point to OB contact requires decent touch.
FranCrimi said:
As for your comment on level of expertise --- sure --- it is a shot that has to be practiced in order to be executed properly, but the question asked here was, "How would you shoot this shot?" Should I have dumbed-down my answer so that beginners can relate, or should I just answer the question and hopefully share some knowledge with them that way?
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Nope I agree with you. You answered as you would approach the shot. I was never disputing whether a kill shot was a valid option. Merely pointing out that correctly performing a kill shot isn't "easy", and can subsequently produce issues beyond merely poor aim.
 
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bbb said:
Fran
To me drag draw is you hit low on the cue ball ie “draw”
but at a speed that the reverse wears off before it gets to the onject ball so it converts to a rolling ball or dead ball as it gets to the object ball
Ie the cue ball sort of drags across the table until the reverse comes off the ball before it gets to the cue ball
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OK, got it. You mean 'backspin' and not 'reverse.' Reverse is a different animal and refers to a type of side spin, or a ball that might 'reverse' off of a cushion. Anyway, in that definition I would agree that a drag draw is one type of kill shot, but keep in mind, not the only one. As I wrote before, depending on the speed and distance, a stun shot can also sometimes be a type of kill shot.

Also, keep in mind the the key to executing a successful kill shot is the use of maximum backspin. The better you are at executing maximum backspin, the softer you can hit the cb.
 
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