Yeah, I saw that and I have no idea where that came from. I asked about it and no one was able to give me an explanation other than it came from 30 something games. What games? What tournaments? I have no idea and they suddenly didn't have that information to provide. I stopped playing in tournaments before this Fargo thing started. Someone told me they put all players at that number as a starting point. Beats me, but feel free to judge me by that. It's pretty funny.
Hunter v Frost, your stance?
- Thread starter u12armresl
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Fran, many thanks! I think the second paragraph pretty much applied when we called a foul or it was at least possible a foul would be called when somebody moved more than one ball setting up. I can't remember a specific instance but I would have accepted a foul called for incidental contact without a second thought.
I learned a little and I appreciate it. This is the kind of thing I don't usually make a fuss about however if somebody has annoyed me I might hold them to the letter of a rule. Pays to know these things!
Hu
Sure! Happy to help. Oh, btw, I added a line to the first paragraph of my response to you about the opponent being able to put the moved ball back even after the player executed the shot in cue ball fouls only --- that's only if the object ball that was accidentally moved didn't interfere with the shot. Once it interferes with the shot, then I think it has to stay where it lies, like when the cue ball runs into it.
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I don’t make shit up, I backed up a statement with facts and a reference. If I’m wrong, I’ll be the first to admit I made a mistake and will give you and AZ land an apology. With all your hot air you could have just supplied us with a reference. Lots of pool bodies use WPA as standard rules. WPA 1.16.1 is the most complete “cue ball foul only” rule explanation I could find. I did find an 8 ball rule that might apply and another rule that might also apply but I’m not going to “teach you” something that you claim you already know
Originally I wasn’t questioning “your truth” however, I’m beginning to believe you and your kind are part of the problem pool has in general. When someone asks for clarification, you just blow out hot air and BS. I’m sorry your superior credentials have blurred your vision.
Hey more power to you. Whatever floats your boat and makes you happy. I don't post here for your sake. I post for other players as well. Feel free to ignore me.I don’t make shit up, I backed up a statement with facts and a reference. If I’m wrong, I’ll be the first to admit I made a mistake and will give you and AZ land an apology. With all your hot air you could have just supplied us with a reference. Lots of pool bodies use WPA as standard rules. WPA 1.16.1 is the most complete “cue ball foul only” rule explanation I could find. I did find an 8 ball rule that might apply and another rule that might also apply but I’m not going to “teach you” something that you claim you already know
Originally I wasn’t questioning “your truth” however, I’m beginning to believe you and your kind are part of the problem pool has in general. When someone asks for clarification, you just blow out hot air and BS. I’m sorry your superior credentials have blurred your vision.
That’s a reasonable explanation however if the moved ball doesn’t hit another ball or cross the path of another ball then you explanation doesn’t address this rule.
jtompilot: The BCA league rules (https://www.playcsipool.com/bcapl-rules.html) are widely used not just in leagues, but in many tournaments.
Thanks.
I’ve had arguments both ways, over whether this shot is a foul. Some players call it a foul when shooting over a ball and you slightly touch the ball on your final stroke. I’ve had others say it’s only CB fouls only and the touched ball didn’t effect anything. WPA 1.16.1 is the only rule I could find that specifically addresses moving a ball during the stroke. That’s why I’m asking for a rule reference. Looks like I’m the only one that wants to learn something, I’m just asking for proof.
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I'll bet on Fran
Yes, That was Mark Griffin's group after purchasing the BCA leagues. They took rules that were in existence at the time as their basis, and then got more specific. CSI -- Cue Sports International was I believe their pro end of their organization. Before the formation of CSI, both the men and women pros in the U.S. were already playing by these rules, but CSI did a good job of making them clearer and particularly tailored them for their leagues to avoid controversies.
The WPA knew about these rules and confronted Mark Griffin. They were not happy that the U.S. players were not playing by their rules. Mark explained to them that the players will play by their own rules when in the U.S. and will abide by WPA all ball foul rules when required to do so in internationally WPA sanctioned events. I was there when that conversation took place, so these rules were not some secret hidden rules that no one knew about. Everyone knew, and they absolutely make sense when there is no referee presiding over the match.
The Europeans were adamantly against them ---- infuriated by them, actually. A few key people from Europe really overreacted and refused to even entertain the idea of cue ball fouls only rules. I directly witnessed that as well. I won't name names, but I still remember vividly how I was screamed at for agreeing with Mark. They were worried that when their players come here to compete, they may go back to Europe wanting to play cue ball fouls only. Their words, not mine.
As a reminder: It's not all ball foul rules that we take issue with. It's when there isn't a presiding referee that it becomes problematic and unfair for the players.
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If you buy a month subscription to the fargo phone app for a buck or two it will show all your match history. One can only see their own history, not other players. (unless an admin or something like that).
When fargo started they partnered with several existing tours that had data on players going back several years. There is one female player from my area in Philly that had something like 1500 games at the beginning of Fargo. That's probably where your 30 some games came from. If you ever played in any JPNEWT events in the NE in the 2000's I bet its from that.
Edit, I'm not advocating buying it. Just mentioning it as for a couple bucks you will get to the bottom of it.
I know one pocket is your main game.... Often I've seen and played it where if you are jacked up over a ball and it moves, it's a foul. And moving 2 balls is an automatic foul.
20 some years ago a group of road players from Chicago came to South Jersey looking for action and we called our top player (Eddie Abraham). The played for 500 a game one pocket. I was there when they were going over the rules. Eddie insisted on these two rules, as he's seen all the moves of improving your position in one hole "accidentally". The road players didn't want to do them, and the game was about to be a no-go due to that. Finally they relented and agreed, and they played.
For me in 30 years of playing cue ball fouls only, I've never had a problem. Only ONE time, I was gambling with a guy pretty good for me and I moved a ball. I stopped and told him, and asked what he wanted to do. He said move it back, and he said it was "here". The thing was his "here" was off a foot from where it really was, and affected the whole layout. I was furious, argued with him a while, but went along with it after all was said and done. I never played him again after that.
Thanks for the info. I may look into it out of curiosity.
I think we have all played people without ethics. One of the reasons I seldom played tournaments, they forced me to play people I wouldn't have wiped my boots on. Like their interpretation of other rules, "replace ball" became "put it where you want it." I hate playing with cheaters, especially when the rules aid their cheating. Hard to say what the rule should be, perhaps the ball always goes on the spot. I am sure spotting the ball could still be gamed sometimes but not as commonly as now.
Hu
The rules are a total mess. APA, BCA, WPA, UPA, DCC, and whatever other alphabet soup organization decides they want their own rules. I'd be happy with all ball foul rules. At least theoretically that eliminates a lot of problems except when a ref who isn't watching the game makes a bad call. It happens in every sport.
jtompilot & FranCrimi: 2 good people
carry on...
carry on...
Hell, i got semi-hammered for calling this event 'bush league'. Well, until MR digs a few quid out of their DEEP pockets to provide a ref in every match (at least one per table pair) i'm sticking to my statement. Could you imagine the US Open tennis tourn. telling early round matches that they had to call their own shots because organizers are either too cheap or too stupid to provide them?
Rule interpretation varies by region...room...league. Especially these sort of issues. There are no absolutes.....except
People in the stands and opponents don't make the calls.
Every significant tournament has a players meeting ahead of time to explain their rules.
I've had a few local guys respot balls like that...to make a tie up. Sign of weakness to me.
Most times the opponent either says just leave it,because it barely moved or let's the shooter put it back since they know best where it was.