I believe some instructors can actually ruin your game!

T

tim913

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not talking about instructors no one has heard of but well known to the pool world. I will not mention any names.

I'll use one example and I have at least 3 but one will get my point across. I had a friend who was a very good player, watched
him beat a couple of pros years ago. He was having some problems with pattern play and needed some work on his break. He went
to a well known instructor who completely changed his stance, grip, etc. He was told that it would feel uncomfortable but keep
practicing and it would get better. It did not, and he got so mixed up he couldn't find his way back to his pre-instruction days. He quit!

I've had lessons with pros and the instructor would make major changes in a lot of student's games but mainly would tell the pro to keep their
head down, pause a little longer and so on when on video the pro's fundamentals weren't that good, but the instructor would say 'but he delivers
straight through the ball'

A lot of players have been playing many, many years and are quite accomplished just like some pro's, and do not need a complete makeover just a few
tweaks in their game but in my opinion they are treated differently.
 
Extreme makeovers for very experienced players are often ill-advised, with the clear exception of when they are expressly requested by the student.

In some cases, a pro is merely exercising poor judgement in the situation you describe, but in other cases it may be a sign of impropriety, not entirely different from the auto mechanic that fixes things in your car that don't need fixing to increase revenue.

The student needs to be on the alert and must make his/her objectives and guidelines crystal clear to the instructor to minimize the danger of embarking on the wrong journey. I think it's ultimately unfair to place all the blame on the instructor. Caveat emptor even when shopping for pool instruction.
 
sjm said:
Extreme makeovers for very experienced players are often ill-advised, with the clear exception of when they are expressly requested by the student.

In some cases, a pro is merely exercising poor judgement in the situation you describe, but in other cases it may be a sign of impropriety, not entirely different from the auto mechanic that fixes things in your car that don't need fixing to increase revenue.

The student needs to be on the alert and must make his/her objectives and guidelines crystal clear to the instructor to minimize the danger of embarking on the wrong journey. I think it's ultimately unfair to place all the blame on the instructor. Caveat emptor even when shopping for pool instruction.
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I agree with most of what you said, but I’ve been to instructors that I’ve found through Billiards Digest and other publications that had good reviews but it was not a good experience. At one place in Illinois a pro was on one table while the rest of us had to share the remaining two tables. He would get the usual little tweaks while we weren’t even allowed to use a closed bridge. I asked why we were being treated differently and was told that when I get as much experience as the pro he would talk to me about it. I then told him that I was not even evaluated. He got mad and asked me if I thought I could beat the pro and I said yes. Little did he know that the pro was actually a friend of mine and we had driven up together. The pro then told the instructor that it would be 50/50 against me and we both went home. I spent a few days with Jerry in Madison and was evaluated and then he started ‘tweaking’ my game and it did help me a lot. Some instructors automatically make assumptions they shouldn’t and some treat pros differently because they usually have an audience that the regular player doesn’t and a few bad reviews from a pro could be bad for business
 
tim913 said:
I agree with most of what you said, but I’ve been to instructors that I’ve found through Billiards Digest and other publications that had good reviews but it was not a good experience. At one place in Illinois a pro was on one table while the rest of us had to share the remaining two tables. He would get the usual little tweaks while we weren’t even allowed to use a closed bridge. I asked why we were being treated differently and was told that when I get as much experience as the pro he would talk to me about it. I then told him that I was not even evaluated. He got mad and asked me if I thought I could beat the pro and I said yes. Little did he know that the pro was actually a friend of mine and we had driven up together. The pro then told the instructor that it would be 50/50 against me and we both went home. I spent a few days with Jerry in Madison and was evaluated and then he started ‘tweaking’ my game and it did help me a lot. Some instructors automatically make assumptions they shouldn’t and some treat pros differently because they usually have an audience that the regular player doesn’t and a few bad reviews from a pro could be bad for business
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Thanks for sharing your story.
 
If you go to an instructor, by default, they're going to want to change things that are faulty. That's essentially the job. I guess a player has to be very clear with them if/where they don't want that.

But there's definitely the possibility of doing more harm than good: You've got to go backwards before you can go forwards, and for a very good player making dramatic changes, it could take a long time to see any benefit.

And that's just assuming the instructor is actually any good...


Is an instructor entitled to treat pros differently to amateurs? I think your starting assumptions about where they are and what their needs are would inevitably be different, but I think a good instructor has to carefully assess their student and so shouldn't rely on assumptions for long.

My 2c.
 
An instructor needs to know how much upside and downside there is before breaking someone down and starting over.

I gave golf instruction about 20 years ago and if someone was looking to go from a 2.0 handicap to scratch, we didn’t do anything major. There was way too much downside to blowing up their swing. But a 24 handicap? There’s not much to lose so those players would sometimes get a complete restart.
 
Yes, some instructors can hurt your game.

They take what works for them as something that can be universally applied to every player and give the same instruction to every student. That usually involves a major change in stance and mechanics which many will never be able to fully incorporate.

I am a strong believer in tailoring instruction to the student, taking into account their present skill level and how much time they spend playing. IOWs, not every player has the time and drive to dedicate themselves to completely retooling their game. So in some instances, tweaks and some practical help is far better than attempting a major makeover. And for the life of me, I cannot understand instructors who insist on forcing bar table players to receive their instruction on a 9' table.

Lou Figueroa
 
Governments tried to standardize English and Math, but that is not working. You got some fresh ideas, what is the ideal instruction situation for you?

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com www.dropbox.com

The BEF website shows their development program for youth.

The introduction on pocket billiards begins at chapter 7. These are some fast readers.

All I am saying if your old enough to visit a pool room, then you should know how to explain in words what a good time playing billiards feels like whether its study or competition or tournament organizing or rules and policy changes

What should all pool players know to say to non pool players?

Based on my decade of participating on this form, it usually starts with a fight. That means the average pool player will scare non pool players away. Still not sure of pool is a bubble sport or something with staying power. At least in my area it has staying power.

I put the picture to say why call it end rail versus back rail, in additional to a pocket numbering system how about a rail numbering system as well.
So shooting the 1 off the one rail for a bank into the 1 pocket. I think giving players more to say would help develop the culture from angry expressions and angry stares to using a form of interpersonal communication.
1622987420885.png
 
justnum said:
Governments tried to standardize English and Math, but that is not working. You got some fresh ideas, what is the ideal instruction situation for you?

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com www.dropbox.com

The BEF website shows their development program for youth.

The introduction on pocket billiards begins at chapter 7. These are some fast readers.

All I am saying if your old enough to visit a pool room, then you should know how to explain in words what a good time playing billiards feels like whether its study or competition or tournament organizing or rules and policy changes

What should all pool players know to say to non pool players?

Based on my decade of participating on this form, it usually starts with a fight. That means the average pool player will scare non pool players away. Still not sure of pool is a bubble sport or something with staying power. At least in my area it has staying power.

I put the picture to say why call it end rail versus back rail, in additional to a pocket numbering system how about a rail numbering system as well.
So shooting the 1 off the one rail for a bank into the 1 pocket. I think giving players more to say would help develop the culture from angry expressions and angry stares to using a form of interpersonal communication.
View attachment 597776
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I think most players are way past this!
 
Every time you change your game, you risk a setback. I think you will experience some initial setback no matter if the change was for the better or not, unless it's just a minor tweak.

Some people are just very adverse to any change and will fight the instructor on everything. You have to ask yourself why you went to an instructor in the first place. If you're happy with your game the way it is but want to change one minor aspect of it, you need to be open and clear about it. The problem is, people do not know their games as well as they think and usually believe their problem is something entirely different than it actually is. I don't envy instructors who have to deal with this crap on a daily basis. Someone comes in to an instructor and want to work on their game, and they're moving around like a meth-addict, twiching, flinching, stance off line, swooping stroke, no psr, but somehow managed to cobble together a halfway respectable game (but they, themselves remember only the wins and think they are Gods gift to the game, because they have no self awareness).

It's a situation you can't really win with. Any change is likely to affect 20 other factors in that persons game and really to get a person to a place of greater consistency would involve a total rebuild from scratch. They say "I jump up after the shot". Probably, you'll see that he has too much weight on the back foot, because his stance is all wonky. Then, if you change that, the swooping, flinching and steering won't work anymore...The person may have played many years, be argumentative and stubborn. If I were the instructor, I'd just say, "I'm sorry, I can't help you". I've witnessed many an instructor session similar to this.

Happy I don't make my living like that.
 
tim913 said:
I'm not talking about instructors no one has heard of but well known to the pool world. I will not mention any names.

I'll use one example and I have at least 3 but one will get my point across. I had a friend who was a very good player, watched
him beat a couple of pros years ago. He was having some problems with pattern play and needed some work on his break. He went
to a well known instructor who completely changed his stance, grip, etc. He was told that it would feel uncomfortable but keep
practicing and it would get better. It did not, and he got so mixed up he couldn't find his way back to his pre-instruction days. He quit!

I've had lessons with pros and the instructor would make major changes in a lot of student's games but mainly would tell the pro to keep their
head down, pause a little longer and so on when on video the pro's fundamentals weren't that good, but the instructor would say 'but he delivers
straight through the ball'

A lot of players have been playing many, many years and are quite accomplished just like some pro's, and do not need a complete makeover just a few
tweaks in their game but in my opinion they are treated differently.
Click to expand...
Particularly when the insistence of the ‘dominant eye’ over the cue came into favor with many instructors. This fouled my playing (not that it was great to begin with) but changing over to what I naturally wanted to see was a problem to say the least!
 
Straightpool_99 said:
Every time you change your game, you risk a setback. I think you will experience some initial setback no matter if the change was for the better or not, unless it's just a minor tweak.

Some people are just very adverse to any change and will fight the instructor on everything. You have to ask yourself why you went to an instructor in the first place. If you're happy with your game the way it is but want to change one minor aspect of it, you need to be open and clear about it. The problem is, people do not know their games as well as they think and usually believe their problem is something entirely different than it actually is. I don't envy instructors who have to deal with this crap on a daily basis. Someone comes in to an instructor and want to work on their game, and they're moving around like a meth-addict, twiching, flinching, stance off line, swooping stroke, no psr, but somehow managed to cobble together a halfway respectable game (but they, themselves remember only the wins and think they are Gods gift to the game, because they have no self awareness).

It's a situation you can't really win with. Any change is likely to affect 20 other factors in that persons game and really to get a person to a place of greater consistency would involve a total rebuild from scratch. They say "I jump up after the shot". Probably, you'll see that he has too much weight on the back foot, because his stance is all wonky. Then, if you change that, the swooping, flinching and steering won't work anymore...The person may have played many years, be argumentative and stubborn. If I were the instructor, I'd just say, "I'm sorry, I can't help you". I've witnessed many an instructor session similar to this.

Happy I don't make my living like that.
Click to expand...
I agree and would not want the job on a full time basis. I've had players come to me wanting to learn how to draw, and they want to be able to do it 'now'. So I would set up an easy shot and say, "make the ball and draw it back", and then proceed to 'tell' them how it's done. So now I have someone who has never done this before, never developed a 'feel' for how it's done trying to concentrate on tip placement, follow through, and contact point on OB to make shot ... way too much to concentrate on at their level. They soon get frustrated. I then take a striped ball and set it on the table with stripe running horizontally, no other ball on table. I show them where tip placement should be, cue level as possible and follow through. The goal is to have the striped ball show some backwards spin after shot before it starts rolling forward. At first there's too much forward speed and not any backwards spin but soon it starts working and they're excited. They have developed the 'feel' of the shot. I then add an OB lined up directly into one of the rails so they can't possibly make the shot or even think about a contact point on OB. They just shoot the shot until they can draw the CB back a little on a consistent basis. I then line the shot up directly into one of the pockets asking them to make the shot and draw it back .. in a short time they think they're the greatest and can't wait to show their friends what they can do .. baby steps!
 
tim913 said:
I'm not talking about instructors no one has heard of but well known to the pool world. I will not mention any names.

I'll use one example and I have at least 3 but one will get my point across. I had a friend who was a very good player, watched
him beat a couple of pros years ago. He was having some problems with pattern play and needed some work on his break. He went
to a well known instructor who completely changed his stance, grip, etc. He was told that it would feel uncomfortable but keep
practicing and it would get better. It did not, and he got so mixed up he couldn't find his way back to his pre-instruction days. He quit!

I've had lessons with pros and the instructor would make major changes in a lot of student's games but mainly would tell the pro to keep their
head down, pause a little longer and so on when on video the pro's fundamentals weren't that good, but the instructor would say 'but he delivers
straight through the ball'

A lot of players have been playing many, many years and are quite accomplished just like some pro's, and do not need a complete makeover just a few
tweaks in their game but in my opinion they are treated differently.
Click to expand...
Im a firm believer that pool is a game of “feel”. I think you should play and do what works for you. I think Any style can be made to work.
 
tim913 said:
I then add an OB lined up directly into one of the rails so they can't possibly make the shot or even think about a contact point on OB.
Click to expand...
I like this a lot. You found a way to short-circuit the 'focusing on making the ball' problem, brilliant.

An idea I like is trying to use the "Inner Game of Tennis" approach in pool instruction. That and the principles of the Michel Thomas language-teaching method. Sadly I'm not good enough at this game to be a credible coach and wouldn't have the time anyway. An idea parked indefinitely :(
 
Don't get me started on the NO BARRIERS TO ENTRY in the billiard industry. Literally ANYONE can be an instructor, a case maker, a cue maker, a distributor and my favorite, a professional pool player. Notice I didn't say that anyone wanting to be any of things has to actually be good at them to make it in the billiard industry.
 
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Being a good or even excellent or even world class pro player does not automatically make you a good instructor. Sadly, not all of the good players get that.
 
I've had very good instruction in a variety of disciplines over the years. With those experiences as a reference, it's pretty clear how a student's development can be malnourished or even stymied by the cookie cutter mentality nevermind plain incompetence. The truly motivated will always find themselves in proof trials and will develop the reason and intuition to find the way. Still, student beware.
 
JB Cases said:
Don't get me started on the NO BARRIERS TO ENTRY in the billiard industry. Literally ANYONE can be an instructor, a case maker, a cue maker, a distributor and my favorite, a professional pool player. Notice I didn't say that anyone wanting to be any of things has to actually be good at them to make it in the billiard industry.
Click to expand...
Not quite sure what you're trying to say there, but if you're not good at what you do, the free market will oust you eventually. Don't try to tell me you've made it in the billiard industry based on your people skills. LOL!
 
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