I Don't Usually Do This, But I Need Opinions

ne14tennis

ne14tennis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Playing BCAPL 8 Ball leagues last night. We are in 1st place by 1 round and need to go 2 weeks without a loss to secure 1st place.

We are playing a team that we have a history of bad blood. They don't like us, we don't like them....enough said.

One of my teammates is at the table and his opponent is running the table until he hooks himself. He has his last ball up near the head string in the middle and the CB is down toward the foot string with a few balls in the way. Only thing he can do is 1 or 2 rail kick at it. we are thinking this guy will be lucky to even hit it let alone make it anywhere. He walks around the table several times gets down on the shot, says "seven" and shoots. He never motioned toward or tapped or said what pocket, all he said was seven.

My teammate jumps up and says you didn't call that shot. This starts a 4 or 5 minute argument about what contitutes calling a shot. During the opponents explanation he frequently admitted to not calling a pocket and said he didn't have to because it was obvious. At this point I decide to add my 2 cents and I said that by definition, banks, kicks and combos are NOT obvious and the rulebook says special care must be taken and you need to let your opponent know what you are doing.

That's all it took. The other team started screaming that my talking to them was a foul. All I did was explain the rule to the opposing player.

One of their players yells out "Nobody watched the shot so call goes to the shooter. Just go ahead and shoot the 8 ball". Which is what he did.

At the end of the night when we were supposed to compare and sign each others score sheets, I explained that i was calling that game a loss for their team and lodging a protest. My grounds were that he admitted to not calling a pocket on a shot that was not obvious, furthermore his teammate gave him advice while not in an official time out (Shoot the 8) and he took that advice and lastly my teammate never said go ahead or shoot it or in any way conceded the argument.

In my mind they were saying we're going to do what we want and there's nothing you can do about it.

What would you have done??

PS.....Our LO is ultra weak. Why can't everybody just get along is the standard answer.

This is the same team that tricked us into a forfiet that cost us 1st place by misrepresenting who was the team CPT and then denying that we had asked to play it on a different date due to players out of town. Our LO is so weak they dont even have a make up policy. As long as they dont have to get involved they're happy to sit back and collect our cash.

I guess in the pool world cheating is a form of flattery. Since we have skills and it takes cheating to beat us I should get some satisfaction out of it......I guess.
 
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ne14tennis said:
Playing BCAPL 8 Ball leagues last night. We are in 1st place by 1 round and need to go 2 weeks without a loss to secure 1st place.

We are playing a team that we have a history of bad blood. They don't like us, we don't like them....enough said.

One of my teammates is at the table and his opponent is running the table until he hooks himself. He has his last ball up near the head string in the middle and the CB is down toward the foot string with a few balls in the way. Only thing he can do is 1 or 2 rail kick at it. we are thinking this guy will be lucky to even hit it let alone make it anywhere. He walks around the table several times gets down on the shot, says "seven" and shoots. He never motioned toward or tapped or said what pocket, all he said was seven.

My teammate jumps up and says you didn't call that shot. This starts a 4 or 5 minute argument about what contitutes calling a shot. During the opponents explanation he frequently admitted to not calling a pocket and said he didn't have to because it was obvious. At this point I decide to add my 2 cents and I said that by definition, banks, kicks and combos are NOT obvious and the rulebook says special care must be taken and you need to let your opponent know what you are doing.

That's all it took. The other team started screaming that my talking to them was a foul. All I did was explain the rule to the opposing player.

One of their players yells out "Nobody watched the shot so call goes to the shooter. Just go ahead and shoot the 8 ball". Which is what he did.

At the end of the night when we were supposed to compare and sign each others score sheets, I explained that i was calling that game a loss for their team and lodging a protest. My grounds were that he admitted to not calling a pocket on a shot that was not obvious, furthermore his teammate gave him advice while not in an official time out (Shoot the 8) and he took that advice and lastly my teammate never said go ahead or shoot it or in any way conceded the argument.

In my mind they were saying we're going to do what we want and there's nothing you can do about it.

What would you have done??

PS.....Our LO is ultra weak. Why can't everybody just get along is the standard answer.
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Tell the others to sit down and shut up. If that does not work, I normally break a beer bottle on the pool table and wave it around like a madman screaming "what your next move boy". :):eek:
 
Sounds like you might have a valid complaint. I hope your LO does the right here, whatever that might be.

Roger
 
The BCAPL rule book 1.17 on page 27 clearly defines that your team was right ..... Hope everything works out for you and Good Luck
 
Update

So the stats come out on LeagueSys yesterday and I see that my LO did not give us credit for the situation listed in the OP. I call her up and ask why.

She starts telling me that the other team said the ball was in front of the pocket and that my player hooked our opponent. I respond with "What does any of that have to do with anything" What difference does it make if our player hooked him or he hooked himself. What difference does it make where the ball was when playing a kick shot. No matter how obvious...it has to be called"

Then she tells me that he should have called the shot since it was a kick. I'm getting hopeful now that she can see what's right. No chance, she then says "I wasn't there so there is nothing I can do about it". I say "So out of the 20 teams that play on Tues nights, you can't do anything about any of those matches except yours...because you aren't there".

I say, "Nevermind all that. Lets get to the part where his teammate yells out what he should do and he does it while not in an official time out?". She has the nerve to tell me "Why didn't you tell him that counted as his timeout". Needless to say that was the end of that phone call.

Later she sends me a txt message telling me that my team is still in 1st place and we are playing her team which is in 8th place and we should still have 1st place wrapped up. Which I read to say, so what if other teams are cheating, you still are in 1st place.

I guess success has it's downside as well. People will stoop to new lows just to try and knock us off.
 
You want me to give Lou and Tony a call? They are very good at showing people the error of their ways. :wink:
 
If the OB were right in front of the pocket, I'd not say anything if it were that obvious and my opponent did call the ball.. Now if it was not a clear shot, I may argue.

I'd love to see the actual shot diagram on the WEI table to say what I'd actually do or say. Life is just too short to argue over petty crap IMHO.. YMMV
 
ne14tennis said:
What would you have done??
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It reads like he was kicking at the seven and there were only two choices: safety or pocket the seven into the obviuos pocket. By saying, "seven," he was calling the seven into the only obvious pocket it could go in after the kick. If he wasn't intending on pocketing it, he would have said, "safe."

It's not like he wildly kicked the seven and it went into some non-obvious pocket, right?

Good shot. No argument.

Fred
 
Tramp Steamer said:
You want me to give Lou and Tony a call? They are very good at showing people the error of their ways. :wink:
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Tramp,

Are Lou and Tony related to my two close friends Vito and Guido? Must be great minds think alike! Seriously, yesterday I asked a question on this forum. As part of the question, I wanted to know why I never see anyone complaining about BCAPL leagues. Oh well. Another one bites the dust!

My question is, why didn't the OP's player at the table ask which pocket the seven was going in before his opponent shot? I'd have stopped him immediately. On that one point, the shot does not count. It's not a foul as his opponent made a good hit. The OP's player plays from where the cue ball ended up. No kick is obvious unless the ball is nearly hanging in the pocket. My guess is someone here will want to debate what "hanging in the pocket" means. Guess thats just part of AZ's forums. What happened after the shot is blatant coaching. The rule book is clear on that subject.

Lyn
 
I've gotta go with Fred and Bob on this one if the 7 was obvious and he called the ball.. I don't care how much I do or do not care for another player or team, I will not resort to taking advantage of someone over a technicality.. I don't need to nor do I want to win that way.
 
cardiac kid said:
Tramp,

Are Lou and Tony related to my two close friends Vito and Guido? Must be great minds think alike! Seriously, yesterday I asked a question on this forum. As part of the question, I wanted to know why I never see anyone complaining about BCAPL leagues. Oh well. Another one bites the dust!

My question is, why didn't the OP's player at the table ask which pocket the seven was going in before his opponent shot? I'd have stopped him immediately. On that one point, the shot does not count. It's not a foul as his opponent made a good hit. The OP's player plays from where the cue ball ended up. No kick is obvious unless the ball is nearly hanging in the pocket. My guess is someone here will want to debate what "hanging in the pocket" means. Guess thats just part of AZ's forums. What happened after the shot is blatant coaching. The rule book is clear on that subject.

Lyn
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You, me, Lou, Tony, Vito, and Guido, all agree. Go straight to the rule book. :)
 
They cheat in BCAPL? Really?

I thought cheating only happened in APA. :p

{ducking}
 
Cornerman said:
It reads like he was kicking at the seven and there were only two choices: safety or pocket the seven into the obviuos pocket. By saying, "seven," he was calling the seven into the only obvious pocket it could go in after the kick. If he wasn't intending on pocketing it, he would have said, "safe."

It's not like he wildly kicked the seven and it went into some non-obvious pocket, right?

Good shot. No argument.

Fred
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Fred:

I have to agree. As you know, I used to operate the Boston Billiards league system at the Danbury, CT location (now defunct). In the several years I'd run the league, I'd learned just what human competitive nature can do to otherwise friendly people.

Sometimes, the most aggressive teams are their own worst enemies. I know that the only time I ever saw (and had to intervene in) problems between two teams, was for a match between the most aggressive teams. In other words, the teams that were so squint-eyed focused on the "W" that they pushed their ethics alarms and tolerances aside. A lot of disingenuous tactics were pulled out of dark orifices in an attempt to "get one over" on the other team -- such as using the rulebook "by the letter of the law" (instead of in "the spirit of the law"); sharking tactics (poorly timed body/object movements, etc.); misrepresentation/distortion of the facts; poor attitude/sportmanship; etc. -- on and on.

What was described above with the kick shot is an example of what I used to see with the whole "rulebook letter of the law" thing, instead of understanding and abiding by the spirit of the law. Without a WEI table diagram of the shot, but going by the description of the shot, it's clear to you and I and others that there was only one pocket for the 7-ball -- the corner pocket it was nearest to. While the player could've been clearer in his shot call, it was obvious that he was calling the kick into that nearest corner pocket. Yes, the rulebook says that no carom, combination, or kick shots are obvious. But the spirit of the law in this case was not calling anything altogether -- i.e. you have a straight-in shot into the corner pocket, so the opponent doesn't have to say anything (no call needed -- it's plainly obvious). The spirit is that this "plainly obvious, no utterance needed" thing does not extend to carom, combination, or kick shots. You can't just say nothing and shoot that carom, combination, or kick shot -- you *have* to call the nominated ball. If, in 10-ball played by WPA rules (the way the game of 10-ball is supposed to be played), you have, say, a 2-10 combination into the corner pocket, you don't have to say "2-10 combination into the corner pocket." You can just say, "10-ball, corner pocket" because it doesn't have to be stated that you have to hit the lowest-numbered ball on the table (that's core to the game of 10-ball). Or even just call, "10-ball" because if it's very near to a corner pocket, it's obvious it's going into that corner pocket (there's no other legitimately possible pockets for it to go into) and you don't have to say the pocket.

The OP's post is an example of two teams going at each other throats, and using any trick they can get their hands on to "get one over" on the other team. This "see no evil, hear no evil" tactic of watching the player call the object ball (only) and then kick at the object ball -- when it's the only shot on the table other than a safety call -- and then feigning confusion / springing like a pouncing tiger because the player didn't precisely call the pocket, is disingenuous by definition.

Many times teams put themselves in the position of animosity with other teams for precisely this behavior. The proper thing to do is kill it with kindness -- just as Bob Jewett suggested. Much of this team rivalry/animosity will just evaporate, and, who knows -- these two teams might find out they have a *lot* in common and become friends.

Just some omniscient thoughts from an experienced league operator,
-Sean
 
ne14tennis said:
So the stats come out on LeagueSys yesterday and I see that my LO did not give us credit for the situation listed in the OP. I call her up and ask why.

She starts telling me that the other team said the ball was in front of the pocket and that my player hooked our opponent. I respond with "What does any of that have to do with anything" What difference does it make if our player hooked him or he hooked himself. What difference does it make where the ball was when playing a kick shot. No matter how obvious...it has to be called"

Then she tells me that he should have called the shot since it was a kick. I'm getting hopeful now that she can see what's right. No chance, she then says "I wasn't there so there is nothing I can do about it". I say "So out of the 20 teams that play on Tues nights, you can't do anything about any of those matches except yours...because you aren't there".

I say, "Nevermind all that. Lets get to the part where his teammate yells out what he should do and he does it while not in an official time out?". She has the nerve to tell me "Why didn't you tell him that counted as his timeout". Needless to say that was the end of that phone call.

Later she sends me a txt message telling me that my team is still in 1st place and we are playing her team which is in 8th place and we should still have 1st place wrapped up. Which I read to say, so what if other teams are cheating, you still are in 1st place.

I guess success has it's downside as well. People will stoop to new lows just to try and knock us off.
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Central texas... what city do you play league out of ?
 
I've gotta go with Fred and Bob on this one if the 7 was obvious and he called the ball.. y.
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I am absolutely horrified just how similar Bob and my posts were. I had all kinds of other things to say, but I accidentally erased it and just went with shorter and not-so-sweet.

Anyway, I figure if the kick was something like this, and he said "seven," then I knew which pocket he was trying to make the seven in based on which rail or rails he was going to. I would call the pocket, but I'm not going to get on any opponent's case if they didn't explicitly say which pocket. I know which pocket. So does anyone else. This below is pretty far off the pocket, but we all still know. If it was any closer, IMO, it's a no brainer. Let it go.

CueTable Help



My teammate has a habit of not calling one-rail cross table banks. I get on his case when he doesn't call the "obvious bank," but thankfully to this date, not one opponent has ever said a word. They knew what he was doing.

Fred
 
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You are talking to pool players now. Describe the kick shot. Did he slam it 100 mph and it went 5 rails? Or was it one of those lag type kicks and he hit it good and it fell and you want to get off on a technicality? These types of arguments are what makes the league systems lose credibility. Some people want to be a stickler for rules and not follow the spirit of them. What would you call on an opponent if you thought they were going to cut a ball in and the one rail bank it and swish it? Most of us can tell slop from a good shot. Do you feel it was slop or a good shot?
 
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