i got a question for all you apa bashers

This is what I'm saying...

lorider said:
jaden i agree that the apa organization itself could help pro pool. but getting the players to?.... it aint happening.

amatures of all leagues don't care about pro pool. i recall a thread on here a while back about having league players donate 1.00 a week in fees to go towards helping pro pool. that idea was shot down quick like by just about every one on here from all leagues.

what do you think any league organization could do to get their players to support pro pool ? the league organizations theirselves could and maybe should help sponsor pro pool getting the average league player to support pro pool? i just dont see it.

heck this forum is filled with people serious about pool .... you cant get 1/4 the members on here to support pros..
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The only reason amatuers don't care about pro pool is that it is not promoted.

If the APA were to send out newsletters to every one of their LOs to pass out to their players, then there would BE interest. If they were to incorporate pro pool into the daily league operations, it would PROMOTE interest. That would promote desire to improve and that would increase interest in pool which would increase the desire for people to talk about and introduce pool to more people.

As I said, it is short sighted for ANY amateur organization to not want to try and push professional awareness within their organization and when the biggest one out there in pool actively avoids doing so, I have a problem with it.

Especially when that means that phenomenal players like Efren, Shane, Busty, and Appleton aren't even recognizable to the majority of regular pool players out there.

Jaden

All of the people with the resources to promote change (with the aforementioned exceptions) aren't doing so. They are being self serving unnecessarily. The majority of players can't be blamed because they do what they do out of necessity, not out of straight selfishness.
 
I'm not saying it would be easy...

leto1776 said:
Jaden, what would the ROI be for an amateur league to promote the pros?
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I"m not saying it would be easy or inexpensive, but the long term payoffs would benefit everybody.

Just doing it to do it wouldn't be smart. Doing it in conjunction with something else would be beneficial.

I've got too many things going right now that speaking about it could affect to go into details of how it could be done.

Jaden
 
Jaden said:
The players being disorganized and self serving (although necessarily so) has been more damaging. As a single entity though the APA has almost gone out of their way to dismiss pro pool while being in the greatest position to affect pro pool in a positive way.

If they were to hold pro events and promote them through their organization, they would have been able to create more interest in pro pool in more people than ANY other organization.

Or even if they were to just work with promoters to promote pro events through their organization with all of the players they have access to, they could have helped pro pool in ways no one has been able to.

Through inaction, they have contributed to the suffering of pro pool, so I cannot support them in any way.

I don't play in any league but if I did, it would only be the USAPL, the BCAPL or Joe Tucker's American Rotation.

Jaden
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Ah, so let's be clear. The APA really didn't destroy pro pool, as you stated earlier, it just hasn't come riding in on its white horse to save it from itself.

And I agree with you, if they really wanted to, APA could probably own pro pool. To what end? As someone else asked, what's the ROI? The undying gratitude of the pro's? We see how quick they can be with that.

It certainly wouldn't be smart from a business sense. They already dominate their market. How much bigger can they get, just by underwriting a professional tour?

Would it be cool to see it happen, yes? Would it make sense, and would it make money, no. BCApl doesnt underwrite the pro's either. (USApl does. Only them.) And Mark Griffin has pulled back from dealing with the pro's, too.... So APA should create a major headache for themselves with no real ROI?
 
To say there would be no ROI for the APA may be correct in the short term but for the long haul wouldn't it make sense for an organization to grow it's audience?

Unfortunately it seems the industry can't seem to stitch together a long term strategy on the best way to attract a bigger slice of the entertainment dollar. The APA is successful and it's business model works but does that mean there's no room to grow?

I remember watching pool on TV before cable when I was younger and then later watching the pro's on ESPN. I was fascinated by the ability of those men and women. That will not happen with this generation with the exception of those lucky enough to have a crazy parent or grandparent who watches the stuff on youtube or the like.

With no exposure to the highest levels of the game most are now exposed to pool only as a drunken exercise in the local gin mill. Played on tables on a tilt equal to the biggest drunk in the place, with cues better suited to be used as a mop handle.

I would love to see a stronger connection between the amateur pool leagues and the professional circuit. The APA probably has the resources to make it happen but it doesn't appear they have the desire to invest in the future of the game beyond their own business model.

Oh well, I'll just play and have some fun and leave the rest of this stuff up to people who know what they're doing.
 
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pogmothoin said:
I would love to see a stronger connection between the amateur pool leagues and the professional circuit. The APA probably has the resources to make it happen but it doesn't appear they have the desire to invest in the future of the game beyond their own business model.

Oh well, I'll just play and have some fun and leave the rest of this stuff up to people who know what they're doing.
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APA is as similar to professional pool as softball is to professional baseball. There is no strategic reason for APA to be involved with a situation that for all intent and purposes will lose them money, just like most before them.

The APA needs to worry about the ACS, TAP, NAPA, etc, because they are coming on strong. And some of them have already taken away many teams due to the higher payouts, better formats and automatic qualifying to state and national tourneys without chasing a carrot for years and years :)
 
ChicagoRJ said:
APA is as similar to professional pool as softball is to professional baseball. There is no strategic reason for APA to be involved with a situation that for all intent and purposes will lose them money, just like most before them.

The APA needs to worry about the ACS, TAP, NAPA, etc, because they are coming on strong. And some of them have already taken away many teams due to the higher payouts, better formats and automatic qualifying to state and national tourneys without chasing a carrot for years and years :)
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I disagree that amateur pool leagues are so dissimilar from professional pool that a marketing relationship would have no value. Whether that value is enough to offset the cost is another issue and ultimately the deciding factor any sponsor would need to consider. But if the entities profiting from the game don't invest in professional pool who will?

I understand your point that the APA is facing competition from other leagues. Part of that problem is that they're fighting over the same pool of players instead of growing the market. From what I've seen the 23 rule is one way the APA chooses to grow its business but it's also the reason many leave for other leagues as they improve their game.

Ultimately the customer will decide which amateur format is best for them and so far the APA is at the head of the pack. And yes I play in the APA and have a great time doing so. I don't really care about the nonsense, I just enjoy the game.
 
Jaden said:
The players being disorganized and self serving (although necessarily so) has been more damaging. As a single entity though the APA has almost gone out of their way to dismiss pro pool while being in the greatest position to affect pro pool in a positive way.

If they were to hold pro events and promote them through their organization, they would have been able to create more interest in pro pool in more people than ANY other organization.

Or even if they were to just work with promoters to promote pro events through their organization with all of the players they have access to, they could have helped pro pool in ways no one has been able to.

Through inaction, they have contributed to the suffering of pro pool, so I cannot support them in any way.

I don't play in any league but if I did, it would only be the USAPL, the BCAPL or Joe Tucker's American Rotation.

Jaden
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Back in the 90's, APA teamed up with R J Reynolds and the men's pro tour in an attempt to unify the amateurs and the pros and grow the sport in a grass-roots manner, similar to the way NASCAR evolved. They ran into problems with the individuals managing the pro tour (who hasn't?), but that wasn't what killed the partnership. The real killer was the tobacco settlement (no pun intended), which limited sponsorship of sports organizations by tobacco companies. R J Reynolds had to choose, and their issues with the pros made the choice an easy one.

APA learned two things from this short-lived partnership. First, they learned that it takes very deep pockets for such a movement to have any impact. Pockets much deeper than APA's. R J Reynolds was spending an amount greater than the total revenue of APA Corporate. Revenue, not profit. APA learned that they could never be successful in such a venture without help from large corporate sponsors.

The second lesson APA learned was that you need a well-structured and solid professional organization for any effort of any size to be successful. It's a lesson they have had to learn more than once. They have sponsored the WPBA for years, mainly because the women have been much more organized than the men ever were. Yet even that organization has proven to be less than solid in recent years. They're down to just a couple of events. To have a chance, you need a real organization, not just an individual or a board of directors who do all of the work to pull events together. You need an organization where every pro does his/her share, with clinics, charity work, and all the other promotional stuff a real professional needs to do. You need an organization with a professional image, not a bunch of really really good players who can't get along with each other for the duration of a single event. Only then will you begin to catch the eye of those large corporate sponsors. That's when the sport starts to grow.

So why doesn't APA simply branch off and create such an organization? Because it takes buy-in from all the pros. It takes the understanding from the founding pros that their job is to build a strong foundation and it will probably not be profitable for them. No matter where the organization or promotional parts come from, you still need pro players who are willing to do whatever is necessary to make it a success, all with the knowledge that it probably won't make any individual player rich (or even pay the bills) for a generation or two. You need pros who will do it for the "love of the game", who understand that their generation will spend their careers as indentured servants. That's an extremely difficult concept for any professional player to accept, let alone an entire group, but it's the only way it will ever work.

To say that APA has gone out of their way to dismiss pro pool would not be accurate in any sense. They have been involved over the years, more than any other amateur pool organization. They are not opposed to the concept of getting involved again, when the time is right. But it's not going to happen with the attitude of today's "pros", and IMO it's going to take someone who is willing to dedicate his/her life (likely without personal reward) to cultivating the necessary attitude in the ranks of professional players before it ever has a chance.
 
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