I want MORE squirt, not less (... I think)

Shaft

Shaft

Hooked and Improving
Silver Member
My LD shafts have natural pivot points of 13-14 inches. Why is that good? (If I bridge shorter than that, and apply BHE, I will be off due to "insufficient squirt.")

Wouldn't I want to tune the shaft so that the natural pivot point is closer to a natural bridge length, like 8 inches? (Yes, I know bridge lengths vary, but I would rarely bridge at 14 inches ... you get the point.)

If the cue had a natural pivot point of my bridge length, I could use BHE alone with less compensation and error. That would mean less to think about, less adjustment, and less error if I fail to adjust properly.

Comments?

Any recommendations on how I could add weight to the end of a shaft until I get the pivot point I want?
 
Personally, I think you are over-analyzing the pivot aspect. I use a z-2, and dont need to be 13 inches away. I do have a somewhat long bridge, but I never really consider my pivot point. Your pivot point and stance change once you stretch anyway.

But if you want to try anyway(nothing wrong with that). Find some tape thats not too sticky, and put some on the end of your shaft. Only use the sticky part on the edges, remove with alcohol. That will increase the end mass, which will in turn increase deflection.
 
Have you tried this with standard shafts? For the OP.
 
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Nah, not me. I read about it on the BD forum. I think the guy used Scotch "Magic Removable Tape."
 
Shaft said:
My LD shafts have natural pivot points of 13-14 inches. Why is that good? (If I bridge shorter than that, and apply BHE, I will be off due to "insufficient squirt.")

Wouldn't I want to tune the shaft so that the natural pivot point is closer to a natural bridge length, like 8 inches? (Yes, I know bridge lengths vary, but I would rarely bridge at 14 inches ... you get the point.)

If the cue had a natural pivot point of my bridge length, I could use BHE alone with less compensation and error. That would mean less to think about, less adjustment, and less error if I fail to adjust properly.

Comments?

Any recommendations on how I could add weight to the end of a shaft until I get the pivot point I want?
Click to expand...

If you want to use this technique, I think it would be better to experiment with a conventional shaft. Then, if you like it and you're successful, you can sell your (expensive) LD shafts.

If you really have a shaft you want to modify, it won't take much added weight. Like a Predator, for example. Having a cue maker convert the shaft would be to remove the ferrule, bore the shaft from the tip end to expose the hollow core, inserting a maple dowel leaving the exposed tenon. Then have a conventional ferrule material , such as melamine or ivorine, installed over the (hopefully threaded) tenon. It will then lose it's LD characteristics.

But wait...

I just want to mention something about BHE and all that. I just had a nice long discussion with a good friend of mine who probably understands the physics of pool better than most (he's a computer engineer who modeled the physics of pool for simulations). I also respect him because he doesn't participate in forums, is one of the better local players, and is an avid fan of professional pool.

We discussed the problem a lot of players have with judging the aim point using inside english. Basically, when it comes right down to it, after all is said and done, at higher levels of the game, he still thinks that practicing the shots in a conventional manner is the best technique to get to a high level of play. I personally don't know any top local players around here who use a pivot point system to measure aim.

There are so many nuances in position play at "A" level play and better, and so many different types of shots required to get position, he did not think a player could come up with an all encompassing aiming or english system that was more reliable or accurate than just learning the many different shots.

Chris
 
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TATE said:
We discussed the problem a lot of players have with judging the aim point using inside english. Basically, when it comes right down to it, after all is said and done, at higher levels of the game, he still thinks that practicing the shots in a conventional manner is the best technique to get to a high level of play. I personally don't know any top local players around here who use a pivot point system to measure aim.

There are so many nuances in position play at "A" level play and better, and so many different types of shots required to get position, he did not think a player could come up with an all encompassing aiming or english system that was more reliable or accurate than just learning the many different shots.

Chris
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Well said. This rings true for me. With a lot of good practice and expireance you can look at a shot and just know how to make it without thinking about how your aiming, or what your back arm is doing. When i start thinking about about those things that is when i start missing balls. As far as LD vs Conv. i think its just personal preference. Practice is where the real advantage comes in. I may be mistaken but i think in the last 2 or three year the US Open 9 ball has been won with both LD and conventional shafts. Thats an extremely high level of play with either.
 
Shaft said:
My LD shafts have natural pivot points of 13-14 inches. Why is that good? (If I bridge shorter than that, and apply BHE, I will be off due to "insufficient squirt.")

Wouldn't I want to tune the shaft so that the natural pivot point is closer to a natural bridge length, like 8 inches? (Yes, I know bridge lengths vary, but I would rarely bridge at 14 inches ... you get the point.)

If the cue had a natural pivot point of my bridge length, I could use BHE alone with less compensation and error. That would mean less to think about, less adjustment, and less error if I fail to adjust properly.

Comments?

Any recommendations on how I could add weight to the end of a shaft until I get the pivot point I want?
Click to expand...
Using BHE with your bridge at the natural pivot length works well only for close-up and/or fast shots. For more info, see VEPS-II (you should have it early this week).

Regards,
Dave
 
Bambu:
Your pivot point and stance change once you stretch anyway.
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I don't get this. Can you elaborate?

pj
chgo

P.S. When I had a bar/restaurant in Belize called Bamboo (in the mid-90s), that's what all the locals called me.
 
Dr. Dave:
Using BHE with your bridge at the natural pivot length works well only for close-up and/or fast shots.
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This is an important point. Because of swerve you're always making aim adjustments (whether you know it or not) in addition to your BHE pivot. BHE just gives you a closer starting point from which to make final aim adjustments by feel/experience (kinda like those aiming systems).

So maybe you're more of a "feel" aimer than you think and the exact position of the pivot point doesn't matter that much.

pj
chgo
 
randyg said:
heavier/mass=stiffer
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This is usually true (with typical solid wood cues), but the endmass is the most important thing when it comes to squirt. For example, if you remove endmass by using a lighter ferrule and/or by drilling out the end of the shaft (i.e., the Predator approach), the endmass is reduced significantly, but the shaft stiffness really doesn't change very much. Also, if you add endmass, but don't change stiffness, squirt increases dramatically. FYI, I have some very convincing experimental results and video demonstrations of these effects here:


Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
This is usually true (with typical solid wood cues), but the endmass is the most important thing when it comes to squirt. For example, if you remove endmass by using a lighter ferrule and/or by drilling out the end of the shaft (i.e., the Predator approach), the endmass is reduced significantly, but the shaft stiffness really doesn't change very much. Also, if you add endmass, but don't change stiffness, squirt increases dramatically. FYI, I have some very convincing experimental results and video demonstrations of these effects here:


Regards,
Dave
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Dave,


I have a question for you.

On a low deflection shaft, if the cue tip were prevented from moving sideways away from the cue ball at impact - held in a tight metal bridge for example, at normal bridging distance, would the squirt be increased?

Chris
 
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TATE said:
Dave,


I have a question for you.

On a low deflection shaft, if the cue tip were prevented from moving sideways away from the cue ball at impact - held in a tight metal bridge for example, at normal bridging distance, would the squirt be increased?

Chris
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You asked this question to Dr. Dave, but I will hazard a guess.
Yes, the presence of a bridge (hand or mechanical device) influences squirt, but I cannot guess at the degree of influence.

The bridge acts as a "horizontal fulcrum" and the cue stick is a "horizontal lever," which produces a different result than the cue being a "spear" flying as a "free body" through space. Also, a short bridge length would make the cue look "stiffer" than a long bridge length.

The effect of the bridge could be small (?) and it is blended into a number of other factors, and collectively these factors are called the "effective endmass" of the cue.
 
TATE said:
Dave,

I have a question for you.

On a low deflection shaft, if the cue tip were prevented from moving sideways away from the cue ball at impact - held in a tight metal bridge for example, at normal bridging distance, would the squirt be increased
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... only if the bridge were within the "endmass length" of the shaft. Most wood shafts have an "endmass length" of about 6 inches. So if the bridge length were longer than about 6 inches, the bridge (even if it were a super-stiff metal bridge) should have absolutely no effect. For more info, see Diagram 1 in my August '08 BD article.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
... only if the bridge were within the "endmass length" of the shaft. Most wood shafts have an "endmass length" of about 6 inches. So if the bridge length were longer than about 6 inches, the bridge (even if it were a super-stiff metal bridge) should have absolutely no effect. For more info, see Diagram 1 in my August '08 BD article.

Regards,
Dave
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Thanks Dave and Shaft.

To engineers this may be boring, but to us laymen, it's very interesting stuff.

Chris
 
TATE said:
Thanks Dave and Shaft.

To engineers this may be boring, but to us laymen, it's very interesting stuff.

Chris
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Laymen can learn by example:
Take the rounded end of a broomstick or a mop handle and shoot a spotshot from your normal location for the cue ball (kitchen) and see if there is a difference.
 
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