ICCS round table discussion

Great video...it was pretty awsome to see that many great builders in one room talking cues. It would have been nice to see more of them speak then just the few that seemed to have a lot to say. Absolutly worth watching.

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I finally found the time to watch the whole thing - what a great discussion! And that was 4 years ago!!
I thought it interesting that there was so much discussion on scrimshaw and I can't say I've seen that much scrimshaw come out - not that I see many cues from these guys - their cues disappear into collectors closets very quickly.
Like someone else said, I wish some guys had been given the chance to speak more - I would have liked to hear Chris Byrne in particular. But I also noticed that when Schick spoke, people listened! And rightfully so.
Thomas Wayne impressed me - and I know he reads here - his posts here are very much different than the guy I heard on the forum. I'll read his posts in a little different light from now on.
Hopefully, there will be other round-table discussions like this one come out and hopefully a lot sooner than 4 years past.
Thanks Ryan for posting this.
So, the over-riding question that never got answered is "Where is cue design going?" The abstract design ideas that were offered I am not seeing.
?????
Gary
 
GBCues said:
Thomas Wayne impressed me - and I know he reads here - his posts here are very much different than the guy I heard on the forum. I'll read his posts in a little different light from now on.
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I honestly think his sense of humor gets lost in translation on the forums.
 
It is times like this I wish I was not as hearing impaired. What I was able to hear I found quite good. I would like to see it become a yearly thing with the same and more makers. Thanks for bringing the link up.
 
GBCues said:
[...]
Like someone else said, I wish some guys had been given the chance to speak more - I would have liked to hear Chris Byrne in particular. [...]
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For the record, EVERYONE at the round table was invited, allowed, and encouraged to speak freely - in fact, during the discussion I spent a good deal of time trying to surreptitiously get the quite ones to "jump in". During breaks those who were being so quiet were strongly urged by Max to speak up and share their opinions. Ultimately I figured out that most of those who remained silent or rarely spoke up must have had no opinions they thought were worth sharing. In retrospect I've concluded some of them may have been spot-on in that assessment.

Others, however, may merely have been "camera shy". In particular, I thought Chris Nitti could have offered plenty of good input - and I was continually urging him to speak up - but he preferred to remain somewhat in the shadows. Too bad... I think he's a very skilled and forward thinking maker, and had/has a lot to offer in such a discussion.

Also - and this is not an insignificant point - it was entirely "open seating". Everyone there could choose ANY chair they wanted. Jerry McW, Rick Chudy, Jim Stadum and I got there a little late and took the seats that remained. In fact, since no one had properly prepared the table for 16 [potential] speakers, I was off looking for hotel staff to provide water and glasses for anyone who had not brought their own "refreshments". {during the first break I found a back anteroom with a chrome pitcher and some glasses and brought water to any who wanted it, since the night staff at that hotel sucked].

In my opinion, the dynamic of that group played out exactly as one might expect - very much like a Friday night high school dance. Some were excited to be there and couldn't wait to leap in and dance to every song, while others line the edges of gym - "wallflowers" secretly hoping someone would ask them to dance... and absolutely dreading the thought at the same time. Those who had something to share and/or were willing to discuss & debate any aspect of the craft had no such fear. From the body language and general demeanor of the participants the viewer can draw their own conclusions about who had anything of value to share and who did not - but NO ONE was in any way prevented from being involved as much as they wanted in the discussion.

TW
 
Thanks Ryan for posting the link to the video. I had never seen it before. It was very enjoyable.

Thanks to all of the cuemakers who participated.
 
Thanks for posting the link. An engrossing video to say the least. I was sorry to see it come to an end. I am certain i will view it again as I no doubt missed some things the first time around.
 
Thanks for posting Ryan.

Bill Schlick IMO is to Cue Making what Doyle Brunson is to poker. A national treasure for sure and great cue artist. A master's master.

How can you not agree with everything TW and Paul Drexler brought to the table.

I wish Ernie, Richard Black, Joe Gold, Bob Manzino and Joel Hercek were there as I would have liked to here them expound a little as well.

Rick
 
Thomas Wayne said:
For the record, EVERYONE at the round table was invited, allowed, and encouraged to speak freely - in fact, during the discussion I spent a good deal of time trying to surreptitiously get the quite ones to "jump in". During breaks those who were being so quiet were strongly urged by Max to speak up and share their opinions. Ultimately I figured out that most of those who remained silent or rarely spoke up must have had no opinions they thought were worth sharing. In retrospect I've concluded some of them may have been spot-on in that assessment.

Others, however, may merely have been "camera shy". In particular, I thought Chris Nitti could have offered plenty of good input - and I was continually urging him to speak up - but he preferred to remain somewhat in the shadows. Too bad... I think he's a very skilled and forward thinking maker, and had/has a lot to offer in such a discussion.

Also - and this is not an insignificant point - it was entirely "open seating". Everyone there could choose ANY chair they wanted. Jerry McW, Rick Chudy, Jim Stadum and I got there a little late and took the seats that remained. In fact, since no one had properly prepared the table for 16 [potential] speakers, I was off looking for hotel staff to provide water and glasses for anyone who had not brought their own "refreshments". {during the first break I found a back anteroom with a chrome pitcher and some glasses and brought water to any who wanted it, since the night staff at that hotel sucked].

In my opinion, the dynamic of that group played out exactly as one might expect - very much like a Friday night high school dance. Some were excited to be there and couldn't wait to leap in and dance to every song, while others line the edges of gym - "wallflowers" secretly hoping someone would ask them to dance... and absolutely dreading the thought at the same time. Those who had something to share and/or were willing to discuss & debate any aspect of the craft had no such fear. From the body language and general demeanor of the participants the viewer can draw their own conclusions about who had anything of value to share and who did not - but NO ONE was in any way prevented from being involved as much as they wanted in the discussion.

TW
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Thomas,
In looking back at how I worded that, well, I could have worded it better. You were most assuredly trying to get others to speak up, but a couple of other guys wouldn't let them. I certainly wasn't trying to throw you under the bus.
It was a great discussion and to answer my own question\observation about scrimshaw, those two cues were the "popular" choice, not the choice of collectors and expert players who actually lay down the cash.

I hope, like others, a similar roundtable shows up again.
Gary
 
Thomas
I also was not trying to bash anyone for speaking up. I just wish some of the other builders would have jumped in and gave their opinion also.

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It was interesting to hear the discussion on scrimshaw, and the age old debate about using parts or other people's work versus where the idea or design originated. The old builder (assembler) vs. true maker debate. Interesting hearing it debated among cuemakers, most of the time when I hear it, it's among knifemakers.


Far as scrimshanders go I would throw Mike Hasbun's name in there with Sandy as well. I really like his work, especially the white on black background.


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As much as I enjoyed and learned a bit from this discussion, I would have like to have heard more about the differences in "playability" of their cues as opposed to their "artistic" ideas.

I enjoy looking at fancy cues, but my interest is more in how it plays. I'm more interested in the car that has "guts" under the hood, not how fancy a paint job it has.
 
Here is what I got from it.

It was unplanned discussion group hastily assembled by TAR. Topics and direction, if any, unknown to all but TAR. Seating unassigned. No one appeared to be bound and gagged. I saw repeated attempts by some to get others to talk. Some took that opportunity to open up, some didn’t. That’s human nature. Frankly I’d prefer listening to someone who is articulate rather than someone with marbles in their mouth.
Especially given that this discussion was more philosophical than technical in nature.

I did not pay for admission to this nor was I mislead ahead of time as to what I could expect from it. From what I gather, this really was never intended for our consumption to begin with. Therefore, not sure why I would want to complain about subject or format?

ICCS is all about art and design. In fact, I believe it came about originally from some cue art show years ago. So it made sense to me that they focus their discussion on art and design. Pretty much a no brainer for me.

I gathered that it was rather unanimous among members that everyone sitting at the table made playable cues. Therefore, it was needless to spend much time arguing over the subjectivity of one cue over the other. Kind of pointless.

I believe they mentioned that there is a blueprint each of these makers pretty much adhere to when creating a cue. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be in business. Therefore, playability for these guys is a moot discussion.

General opinion was that design is likely the biggest area for change in the future. I would agree.

Overall, I enjoyed it and thankful we got a limited look at some of the best in the business.
 
Wow! That scrimshaw you posted is amazing. I mostly enjoyed the discussion about defining art vs. craftsmanship. Wish I could have heard from Eric Crisp, and others who didn't speak up. I totally dig the abstract style that some makers are pursuing. There was a cue done by Darrin Hill that was Jaw Dropping and definitely in this category (frankenstein cue, google it). I will probably watch this again as I really liked the philosophy that these cuemakers adhere to. I'm just starting out in this craft, so to Thomas Wayne- i'll take you up on your offer for lessons as soon i get my shop set up!!! (you'll have to come to california once a week though...)

In all seriousness, this was really great to see the master cuemakers discuss this craft and the custom cue market.
 
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galipeau said:
Wow! That scrimshaw you posted is amazing. I mostly enjoyed the discussion about defining art vs. craftsmanship. Wish I could have heard from Eric Crisp, and others who didn't speak up. I totally dig the abstract style that some makers are pursuing. There was a cue done by Darrin Hill that was Jaw Dropping and definitely in this category (frankenstein cue, google it). I will probably watch this again as I really liked the philosophy that these cuemakers adhere to. I'm just starting out in this craft, so to Thomas Wayne- i'll take you up on your offer for lessons as soon i get my shop set up!!! (you'll have to come to california once a week though...)

In all seriousness, this was really great to see the master cuemakers discuss this craft and the custom cue market.
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Hi,

Darin built Frankenstein in my shop while he was ironing out a divorce and it is an awesome cue for sure. I also love that cue.

Darin is a very creative cue maker who would have had some insights to share also.

Good luck in your cue making,

Rick
 
Thomas Wayne said:
For the record, EVERYONE at the round table was invited, allowed, and encouraged to speak freely - in fact, during the discussion I spent a good deal of time trying to surreptitiously get the quite ones to "jump in". During breaks those who were being so quiet were strongly urged by Max to speak up and share their opinions. Ultimately I figured out that most of those who remained silent or rarely spoke up must have had no opinions they thought were worth sharing. In retrospect I've concluded some of them may have been spot-on in that assessment.

Others, however, may merely have been "camera shy". In particular, I thought Chris Nitti could have offered plenty of good input - and I was continually urging him to speak up - but he preferred to remain somewhat in the shadows. Too bad... I think he's a very skilled and forward thinking maker, and had/has a lot to offer in such a discussion.

Also - and this is not an insignificant point - it was entirely "open seating". Everyone there could choose ANY chair they wanted. Jerry McW, Rick Chudy, Jim Stadum and I got there a little late and took the seats that remained. In fact, since no one had properly prepared the table for 16 [potential] speakers, I was off looking for hotel staff to provide water and glasses for anyone who had not brought their own "refreshments". {during the first break I found a back anteroom with a chrome pitcher and some glasses and brought water to any who wanted it, since the night staff at that hotel sucked].

In my opinion, the dynamic of that group played out exactly as one might expect - very much like a Friday night high school dance. Some were excited to be there and couldn't wait to leap in and dance to every song, while others line the edges of gym - "wallflowers" secretly hoping someone would ask them to dance... and absolutely dreading the thought at the same time. Those who had something to share and/or were willing to discuss & debate any aspect of the craft had no such fear. From the body language and general demeanor of the participants the viewer can draw their own conclusions about who had anything of value to share and who did not - but NO ONE was in any way prevented from being involved as much as they wanted in the discussion.

TW
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I did find it a little hard for people to jump in on the discussion. It was a spirited conversation among some of the best cuemakers in the world. abstract or Art cues are not really my forte so for alot of the time I did not have anything to add. I went to the ICCS to see they very top end of the market. I was glad to be there to listen to everyone.
 
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I thought the part about George Balabushka was interesting. So many think he's the end all be all of building, but here they said he was basically an assembler that understood, making the cue fit together right, and hit right was what built him his reputation.

I also found Thomas Wayne to be brilliant in this discussion. A lot of what he had to say I agree with.

This discussion further blurred the lines for me on how I feel about CNC work. I like the end product, and always have. Still seems like cheating to me a little, but O well. I'll pry come around sooner or later...

The whole thing is great if you have an avid interesting in building cues. I would love to see a similar thing done, but limit the number of participants to about 6-10. To many people in this one for sure. With a smaller group, it would be easier to get everyone to speak. I think if someone did one with 6-10 builders a few times every year, I would pay to watch every one.

All in all, I really enjoyed it!!!

All the best,

Justin Hanson
 
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