if the APA handicap system really works

[KoolKiller]

then why they put a "23" cap to all the teams?

It's my second year with APA and I was asked to NOT to play 100% so that I don't get bumped on my handicap. I actually don't care about free Vegas trips that much and just want to improve my game and have some fun. Now if I go to next level then my team won't even have 5 players to play. My team is qualified for competing for Vegas trip in June and I don't want to "disqualify" the team just because I play better pool than I used to.

My question is that if the handicap really works like they acclaimed, that a SL2 can really compete with a SL7 and have an equal chance of winning, how about eliminating the 23 cap and let the team have the freedom of having all 7s if they choose so? I will still form my team with a bunch of 4 and 5s even if there is no 23 cap.

Comments?

 

[Winston846]

Whatever happened to the popcorn emoticon? Now would be a good time for it. Get ready for the APA bashing - again. :deadhorse:

 

[Scott Lee]

KoolKiller...The reason is that the league is not built on having a "loaded' team. It is set up for, and based on the 2's, 3's, and 4's that make up the huge majority of the league. The APA is not interested in having lots of 7's. Hence the 23 rule, which eliminates loading up a team with all good players.

Scott Lee ~ former APA L.O.
www.poolknowledge.com

My question is that if the handicap really works like they acclaimed, that a SL2 can really compete with a SL7 and have an equal chance of winning, how about eliminating the 23 cap and let the team have the freedom of having all 7s if they choose so? I will still form my team with a bunch of 4 and 5s even if there is no 23 cap.

Comments?

 

[KoolKiller]

I got that.
but my point is that if the handicap system really WORKS like the way it suppose to, why would people load a team with all 7s?

KoolKiller...The reason is that the league is not built on having a "loaded' team. It is set up for, and based on the 2's, 3's, and 4's that make up the huge majority of the league. The APA is not interested in having lots of 7's. Hence the 23 rule, which eliminates loading up a team with all good players.

Scott Lee ~ former APA L.O.
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[justadub]

I got that.
but my point is that if the handicap system really WORKS like the way it suppose to, why would people load a team with all 7s?

Because the handicap makes it so that lesser players have a chance against the better players. I don't believe anywhere is it stated that the handicap will make any given match "equal".

Better players win most of the time, that's why they are better. The handicap gives the lesser player a fighting chance, if they play their best, and catch the better player when he/she makes a mistake or two.

This, of course, is with the thought that people aren't cheating to affect their handicap level. Once that occurs, the whole thing gets out of whack.

Too bad we have folks that feel they have to cheat in order to play APA.

 

[KoolKiller]

it says so on APA website,

"With The Equalizer®, it's feasible for a beginner to have a nearly equal chance in a match against a more highly skilled player."

Because the handicap makes it so that lesser players have a chance against the better players. I don't believe anywhere is it stated that the handicap will make any given match "equal".

Better players win most of the time, that's why they are better. The handicap gives the lesser player a fighting chance, if they play their best, and catch the better player when he/she makes a mistake or two.

This, of course, is with the thought that people aren't cheating to affect their handicap level. Once that occurs, the whole thing gets out of whack.

Too bad we have folks that feel they have to cheat in order to play APA.

 

[Scott Lee]

justadub...Well, in all fairness, APA does call it "The Equalizer" handicap system! LOL I agree that the better player will win more often than not...and it's a shame that some have to cheat the system, no matter what the system is.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I don't believe anywhere is it stated that the handicap will make any given match "equal".

Too bad we have folks that feel they have to cheat in order to play APA.

 

[Scott Lee]

KoolKiller...Note the words "feasable" and "nearly equal chance". It is feasable that I have a nearly equal chance of winning the Lottery as the next guy...unless that guy buys hundreds or thousands of tickets.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

it says so on APA website,

"With The Equalizer®, it's feasible for a beginner to have a nearly equal chance in a match against a more highly skilled player."

 

[MikeM]

I got that.
but my point is that if the handicap system really WORKS like the way it suppose to, why would people load a team with all 7s?

Evidently, you DON'T get it. It's a pretty simple concept.

In ANY handicapping system the better player will still be expected to win MOST of the time. So, the tens of thousands of non-7's in the APA system don't really want to lose MOST of the time. So, in order to keep their league - which is ~275,000 members strong - running, they have devised a handicap limit which ensures that teams have to be a mix of high and low handicaps.

Teams would stack their rosters with 7s so they can win and go to Vegas and win some more.

If you want open, unlimited play join a league other than APA.

MM...and don't sandbag...it's cheating!

 

[LeagueGuy]

There is no handicap system out there that will allow a 2 or a 3 to compete even with a 6 or a 7 and still get the matches played in a couple of hours.

The reason for the 23 rule, in my opinion, is to ensure that each team need a few newer/less skilled players. That is what keeps the matches even. When you combine that with the fact that the majority of the poolplaying market is average or below, it makes sense to target the lower skilled players and not the higher ones.

Leagueguy

 

[justadub]

it says so on APA website,

"With The Equalizer®, it's feasible for a beginner to have a nearly equal chance in a match against a more highly skilled player."

OK.

So we can banter about the phrase "nearly equal" as opposed to "absolutely equal" if you'd like, but there is a little wiggle room there.

Anyone who plays APA where the handicaps are done correctly (for the most part) knows that a real SL2 isn't gonna beat an SL7 very often, unless the SL7 has a bad day and early-8's a couple of times. And the SL2 plays WAY over their head.

It can happen, and does occasionally. Last week our SL7 was beaten by an SL4. They are both handicapped accurately. She played really well, he didn't. They could match up again 10 more times and she probably wouldn't win more than 1 or 2 more times, if even that. So it can happen, and it makes it close enough that the better player really has to pay attention to what they're doing.

I think the system works fairly well as it is. (It would work really well if people wouldn't cheat.) I know I wouldn't want to face a team of SL7's. While I'm not afraid of playing one if it makes sense, having to face a whole team of them, on a regular basis, would make it far less enjoyable to play each week. I doubt I would stay with it. I say "doubt" because until I'm put into that situation, I won't know.

Yes, I try to play as many better players as I can, as often as I can, when I'm not playing league. Many times against SL6's and SL7's (or their equivelant, if they don't play league). It's how we get better. I just don't know if I'd be interested in playing in a league that would be that out of whack balance-wise. It is a big commitment, and if you're not having fun, why would you want to put yourself through it?

 

[KoolKiller]

I'm all against sandbagging and I don't want to cheat.
Last week I won my match rackless and instead of cheering for my victory, the captain was really upset and nervous and brought up the issue with the whole team not being able to play 5 players if I go up. We had two players gone up after we won the qualifications.

Now I'm in the situation where if i keep shooting the way I should be, the entire team will be disqualified and it looks like I let all my teammates down.

I decided not to play for the team until the June match. I also went out and find a local league that's handicapped but has no Cap for all the team.

So now I think I do have a valid point here, APA handicap system is NOT as good as they claimed to be. If it really is, then I don't see the necessity of having a 23 Cap.

Evidently, you DON'T get it. It's a pretty simple concept.

In ANY handicapping system the better player will still be expected to win MOST of the time. So, the tens of thousands of non-7's in the APA system don't really want to lose MOST of the time. So, in order to keep their league - which is ~275,000 members strong - running, they have devised a handicap limit which ensures that teams have to be a mix of high and low handicaps.

Teams would stack their rosters with 7s so they can win and go to Vegas and win some more.

If you want open, unlimited play join a league other than APA.

MM...and don't sandbag...it's cheating!

 

[itsfroze]

Just my two cents

then why they put a "23" cap to all the teams?

It's my second year with APA and I was asked to NOT to play 100% so that I don't get bumped on my handicap. I actually don't care about free Vegas trips that much and just want to improve my game and have some fun. Now if I go to next level then my team won't even have 5 players to play. My team is qualified for competing for Vegas trip in June and I don't want to "disqualify" the team just because I play better pool than I used to.

My question is that if the handicap really works like they acclaimed, that a SL2 can really compete with a SL7 and have an equal chance of winning, how about eliminating the 23 cap and let the team have the freedom of having all 7s if they choose so? I will still form my team with a bunch of 4 and 5s even if there is no 23 cap.

Comments?

I am pretty sure that the 23 point rule is there for one reason only and that is once peoples ratings go up then that team has to split up and then get some new people and know the APA has two teams instead of one and thats the reason. They want their leagues to grow and their association to expand.

 

[dabarbr]

When it comes to a sl7 you never know what you're up against. They may be a players just out of the sl6 range or a players of high caliber that are in the pro range.

There is a huge difference in the sl7 players. No way can a low level player ever expect to beat a high level sl7 unless he breaks and makes the eight and scratches, early pockets the eight, scratches on the eight or basically just plays careless.

 

[lukemindish]

The bottom line is the APA is geared towards the casual banger. Thats why its so popular. The APA rewards the lower handicapped player and punishes someone who goes out there and tries to improve. Thats why people will tell you, if you are legitimately trying to get better dont play in the APA. If you want to improve play in some local tournaments. Dont take the APA seriously and look at it as a casual night out with friends having a good time. Because thats all it is.

 

[justadub]

I'm all against sandbagging and I don't want to cheat.
Last week I won my match rackless and instead of cheering for my victory, the captain was really upset and nervous and brought up the issue with the whole team not being able to play 5 players if I go up. We had two players gone up after we won the qualifications.

Now I'm in the situation where if i keep shooting the way I should be, the entire team will be disqualified and it looks like I let all my teammates down.

I decided not to play for the team until the June match. I also went out and find a local league that's handicapped but has no Cap for all the team.

So now I think I do have a valid point here, APA handicap system is NOT as good as they claimed to be. If it really is, then I don't see the necessity of having a 23 Cap.

Let me try it a different way. I take it you aren't a higher skill level at this point, given your despcription of how the captain is worried about your handicap.

So let me ask you, straight up? DO you want to play an SL7 every week, from here on out? Do you want to make the committment to your team to be there every week, to pay your $6-$10 every week, knowing you will be facing an SL7 every week?

I don't.

That's what would happen if you eliminate the 23 limit. Stacked teams. Moreso than the way it is now with the cheaters.

That is part of why there is a 23 limit. To make the league attractive to lesser players like myself. Since there are MANY more of us than there are higher level players, at least within the APA.

It's supposed to be a league that is friendly to people who are new to pool. Bring someone new to the game into your league next week, and set them up to play against an SL7. See if they really want to go out of their way to come play again, and again.

 

[skeptic]

My question is that if the handicap really works like they acclaimed, that a SL2 can really compete with a SL7 and have an equal chance of winning, how about eliminating the 23 cap and let the team have the freedom of having all 7s if they choose so?

Because a handicap system makes it more fair, but certainly not even. A true 2 is not going to win to 2 games before a true 7 gets his 7 games very often. The closer the skill level the better it works, but at the extreme ends things tend to fall apart a bit. 2 games vs. 20 may be a lot more fair, but who has the time or wants to watch a really strong player beat a beginner 20 games in a row?

Seems like a lot of people really dislike APA, but the level cap does encourage a decent mix of skill levels and tries to keep things balanced. My BCA league has a team with 3 9's and a strong 8. They are the "serious" team, regularly go to tournaments, etc. The rest of the teams are a pretty even mix of 6s through 8s. A handicap system isn't going to "fix" the fact that this team takes 1st every session by a large margin. A handicap cap would (by forcing them to split up).

 

[KoolKiller]

I'm a SL 5 but shooting like a weak 6 now per others I've played with. (was 4 when started). I'll be excited if I got to play a 7 or 6 each week since that's how I think I can improve and I really don't care much about the free trip or stuff.

I guess like the others said, it's not a league for serious players who want to improve. I do have fun each time I come out and play but if I can't play myself 100%, that takes out all the fun. :angry:

Let me try it a different way. I take it you aren't a higher skill level at this point, given your despcription of how the captain is worried about your handicap.

So let me ask you, straight up? DO you want to play an SL7 every week, from here on out? Do you want to make the committment to your team to be there every week, to pay your $6-$10 every week, knowing you will be facing an SL7 every week?

I don't.

That's what would happen if you eliminate the 23 limit. Stacked teams. Moreso than the way it is now with the cheaters.

That is part of why there is a 23 limit. To make the league attractive to lesser players like myself. Since there are MANY more of us than there are higher level players, at least within the APA.

It's supposed to be a league that is friendly to people who are new to pool. Bring someone new to the game into your league next week, and set them up to play against an SL7. See if they really want to go out of their way to come play again, and again.

 

[justadub]

I'm a SL 5 but shooting like a weak 6 now per others I've played with. (was 4 when started). I'll be excited if I got to play a 7 or 6 each week since that's how I think I can improve and I really don't care much about the free trip or stuff.

I guess like the others said, it's not a league for serious players who want to improve. I do have fun each time I come out and play but if I can't play myself 100%, that takes out all the fun. :angry:

I agree with that, 100%. I won't lose for anyone. I can do that easily enough on my own, certainly not because someone wants me to cheat.

I, too, like to "play up", I enjoy the challenge. (I'm also an SL5, but unlike you I'm not near the 6-level of play yet. I joking call myself a 4.5) It doesn't happen all that often, and if I'm "playing up" then someone else is usually going to have an advantage in their match. And yes, I do really want to improve, too.

My only point to you is that if there were no 23 limit, the teams would get so stacked and out of balance that the recreational shooter truly wouldn't have enough fun to justify playing league regularly. That's all I meant. The true SL3's and 4's wouldn't find much enjoyment in getting their brains beat in every week.

If they really want to "handicap manage" you, they should be putting you up against the SL7's, so you can play full out. Unless you are so under-handicapped that you would be at an advantage against those SL7's... Maybe that's what your captain is banking on for later, huh?

Good luck, in whatever league you end up playing in.

 

[KoolKiller]

Well said!

I got very frustrated last week when I realized the situation I got myself into.

However, I'm not bashing APA even though I end up playing in a different league this summer. I enjoyed my time with APA and did actually improve my game a lot. I have two 7s and a strong 6 in my team so I learned a lot from them. I think APA served the purpose of getting me back into the game.

I will try out another local league in the summer and I hope I find what I've been looking for there.

Cheers

I agree with that, 100%. I won't lose for anyone. I can do that easily enough on my own, certainly not because someone wants me to cheat.

I, too, like to "play up", I enjoy the challenge. (I'm also an SL5, but unlike you I'm not near the 6-level of play yet. I joking call myself a 4.5) It doesn't happen all that often, and if I'm "playing up" then someone else is usually going to have an advantage in their match. And yes, I do really want to improve, too.

My only point to you is that if there were no 23 limit, the teams would get so stacked and out of balance that the recreational shooter truly wouldn't have enough fun to justify playing league regularly. That's all I meant. The true SL3's and 4's wouldn't find much enjoyment in getting their brains beat in every week.

If they really want to "handicap manage" you, they should be putting you up against the SL7's, so you can play full out. Unless you are so under-handicapped that you would be at an advantage against those SL7's... Maybe that's what your captain is banking on for later, huh?

Good luck, in whatever league you end up playing in.