If you foul, but your opponent doesn't see it, should you call it on yourself?
- Thread starter ChrisBanks
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The question in the title of this thread asks if you SHOULD call a foul on yourself when your opponent doesn't see it. IMO, that depends on the understanding between you and your opponent. If the expectation is that you call your own fouls, you are cheating if you don't. If the expectation is that they have to call the fouls, your opponent should be paying attention.
Personally, I prefer calling your own fouls, and that's how everyone usually plays around here. The shooter is in a better position to judge a foul most of the time, and it avoids having to "accuse" your opponent of every foul they commit. Even in a "call your own foul" scenario, I believe that the non-shooter should be paying attention and be prepared to call a foul that the shooter doesn't see.
For those that don't call fouls on themselves when they are expected to, a few words of advice: Just because your opponent doesn't call it, that doesn't mean they didn't see it. There have been many times where I've seen an opponent blatantly cheating and didn't think it was worth the trouble to call them on it (league match, playing cheap, a match I have locked up anyways, etc.). The point is, I know they cheat, and I know they'll do it again, so I can watch out for it when it matters. Any respect that I had for them as a pool player is gone.
As for the questions of "what if you were playing for $10,000?", I would still call a foul on myself. If we're talking about a $10,000 tournament, there are people watching anyways, so I assume this is talking about gambling. I never play for more than I am willing to lose, so if I was playing for that much, it still wouldn't be worth it.
Personally, I prefer calling your own fouls, and that's how everyone usually plays around here. The shooter is in a better position to judge a foul most of the time, and it avoids having to "accuse" your opponent of every foul they commit. Even in a "call your own foul" scenario, I believe that the non-shooter should be paying attention and be prepared to call a foul that the shooter doesn't see.
For those that don't call fouls on themselves when they are expected to, a few words of advice: Just because your opponent doesn't call it, that doesn't mean they didn't see it. There have been many times where I've seen an opponent blatantly cheating and didn't think it was worth the trouble to call them on it (league match, playing cheap, a match I have locked up anyways, etc.). The point is, I know they cheat, and I know they'll do it again, so I can watch out for it when it matters. Any respect that I had for them as a pool player is gone.
As for the questions of "what if you were playing for $10,000?", I would still call a foul on myself. If we're talking about a $10,000 tournament, there are people watching anyways, so I assume this is talking about gambling. I never play for more than I am willing to lose, so if I was playing for that much, it still wouldn't be worth it.
yikes
Nice No wonder why pool gets a bad rap.
Some People really think it's ok to cheat
Nice No wonder why pool gets a bad rap.
Some People really think it's ok to cheat
I've thought about a similar scenario in pool, that doesn't involve a foul but would be a wonderful opportunity to display true sportsmanship:
I've seen a match with Efren Reyes somewhere on YouTube where he hits a ball perfectly and has the pocket spit the ball back out at him (I know this has happened to many players). I've often thought that if I was the incoming player in that situation I would just grab the object ball and put it in the pocket and have him continue shooting.
I'm probably giving myself too much credit but I just can't imagine losing a match because the pocket spits a ball back out at me. That would be tough to swallow.
On the other hand:
There does need to be an understanding on whether or not you are playing a gentlemen's game. Recently, there was one of those public service announcement type commercials running (maybe from the Foundation for a Better Life or some such organization). This commercial depicts a high school basketball player that has such a strong conscience that he has to tell the official that he was the one that actually hit the ball out of bounds (giving the ball to the other team and ensuring their defeat). This is depicted as true sportmanship. I say that's complete nonsense, and if I had a kid like that on my basketball team I would smack him in the face.
I believe there is a difference between living your life with integrity and being a complete idiot, although sometimes it may be hard to tell the difference.
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Coach him to just play ball and let the officials do their job. I think this is what a good official would say as well.
Name one person in human history that has been comletely selfless, honest, honrable, and morally sound in every aspect of his or her life.
Difference between you and I is, I actually logically think about what I am saying before I post it.
So you have turned from being overly competative to a 13 yr old girl who cares what other people think of you?
If you can look yourself in the mirror every morning who gives a flying **** what others think.
No. Under my reading of the World-Standardized Rules, each of those shots could have been called a foul:
6.2 Wrong Ball First
In those games which require the first object ball struck to be a particular ball or one of a group of balls, it is a foul for the cue ball to first contact any other ball.
So when S potted the 4 with the 2 on the table, it was a foul. When S potted the 5 with the 2 on the table, it was a foul, etc.In those games which require the first object ball struck to be a particular ball or one of a group of balls, it is a foul for the cue ball to first contact any other ball.
I imagine the rule you are thinking of is this: "If a foul is not called before the next shot begins, the foul is assumed not to have happened." But in the situation described, the wrong-ball-first rule was being violated with each shot.
This reminds me, however, of rules (explicitly in writing) in effect years ago in the U.S. Amateur Championship. I don't know whether they still use the same rules in that event, or whether they are also used in other APA events. But at that time, if a player hit the wrong ball first in 9-ball, or started shooting the wrong category of balls in 8-ball, the sitting player was permitted (although it was not recommended) to allow the shooting player to continue shooting until he (the sitting player) felt inclined to call the foul. If the sitting player had not yet called a foul, the shooting player could escape penalty by realizing the mistake and shooting the correct ball.
That's the model to emulate. Merry Christmas. I believe some call him by other names.
Best Regards,
You seem to be going down a long, dark road. I hope & pray for you that it will not be totally alone.
Merry Christmas,
You keep coming back to this, like it's some kind of solid point that justifies cheating.
Being a decent human being is not an all-or-nothing proposition.
Just because someone wasn't perfect in the past, doesn't mean they shouldn't try to be honest in the future, and expect others to do the same.
I may not be perfect, but that doesn't mean I should say "fuсk it" and not even try.
I honestly can't fathom the tone you take with people who defend acting honestly, like they're all hypocritical chumps. I guess the idea is so foreign to you,
you can't BELIEVE people out there are acting honestly at the table, day in and day out. You must figure we're all faking it just to look good on the forums.
HA! I guess we are destined to have different interpretations of the rules. I suppose different refs could interpret the above rules differently...but the EXPLICIT language of the rule you cited states that if the foul of shooting the 3 ball out of turn was not called prior to the shot on the 4 ball, then the foul of shooting the 3 out of turn was "ASSUMED NOT TO HAVE HAPPENED."
So... if there was no foul for shooting the 3 out of turn...and there WAS no foul the instant the 4 was shot at...then there CANNOT be any "continuing foul" from the 4 to the 7 because BY RULE...there was NO FOUL on the 3 ball shot! Ya can't have a continuing foul if there was no foul presumed to have happened (due to the non-call prior to the next shot) in the first place.
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Of course, morals and ethics can be injected yet again into the matter and the saintly player who realizes...before shooting the 8 that he had been shooting out of turn could simply surrender his inning and give ball in hand to the opponent...but NOT because a FOUL had occurred...BY RULE.
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EagleMan
So you say im going down a dark road, but then clearly make a religious remark... Isn't the whole thing behind religion living your life in a manner which you feel is morally sound. Since when does religion have anything to do with proving yourself to people around you?
When in the hell have I ever said that cheating was OK. Please go find the time I said it, cause I haven't. Maybe if you chumps took some reading comprehension classes you could understand the point that I am trying to make. Would I call a foul on myself in a lower stakes game? Yes I would, but would I ever expect my opponent to do the same, hell ****ing no. Would I call a foul on myself for 5k? Yes I would, because I have done it. Would I call a foul on myself for 50k? I don't know, that is a lot of cheddar and I honestly can't say.
What I won't do is waste everyones time coming into this thread and saying "Yes I will always call a foul on myself".... ****ing please... The OP is not a moron, he didn't need to obvious answer. He wanted legitimate well thought out answers, and the answers that I have been reading in this thread are a complete joke to me. I doubt anyone on this forum can gurantee they will always call a foul on themselves. And the point is you should never trust anyone to do so. This world is not a world of gentlemen and people of high integrity like everyone is trying to paint a picture that it is....
Eddie May,
I do not act in any way to prove anything to people around me. I do it to prove it to myself. Am I totally selfless? Obviously not, but I am also obviously not totally selfish either.
I agree with you that this world, as it is, is certainly not filled with honest, rightgeous people. However, I do not have to join the majority.
I made no 'religious' comment. I made a comment regarding a phylosphy of a way of life.
You are certainly entitled to live your free will life as you choose as is each one of us. It is obvious that different choices have been made by those posting in this post.
It has been pointed out that no one can 'guarantee' to live up to thier commitments & some have admitted to failure but have also reaffirmed their commitment & have relayed the price they paid for their failure.
It really matters not what those around you think or feel about or for you. It matters what you think & feel for yourself when you take an honest look in the mirror.
I apologize if I am coming off as preaching or pontificating. That is certainly not my intent. I am merely stating my opinions, the $0.02 worth
variey that they may be.
Best Wishes, Sincerely,
I do not act in any way to prove anything to people around me. I do it to prove it to myself. Am I totally selfless? Obviously not, but I am also obviously not totally selfish either.
I agree with you that this world, as it is, is certainly not filled with honest, rightgeous people. However, I do not have to join the majority.
I made no 'religious' comment. I made a comment regarding a phylosphy of a way of life.
You are certainly entitled to live your free will life as you choose as is each one of us. It is obvious that different choices have been made by those posting in this post.
It has been pointed out that no one can 'guarantee' to live up to thier commitments & some have admitted to failure but have also reaffirmed their commitment & have relayed the price they paid for their failure.
It really matters not what those around you think or feel about or for you. It matters what you think & feel for yourself when you take an honest look in the mirror.
I apologize if I am coming off as preaching or pontificating. That is certainly not my intent. I am merely stating my opinions, the $0.02 worth
variey that they may be.
Best Wishes, Sincerely,
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I agree with you.. I was not coming from a dark place, I was commenting on the fact that the guy said "now its more important to me what other people think of me". I think that is a very bleak comment, and a poor way to choose how you act.
Yes if you are real sportsman. Golfers have lost tourneys calling a stroke on themself in the woods. It is working well for golf. And before you say it yes there are plenty of golfers who dont call such shots.
Also it is according to the rules you are playinf by but no matter at least indicate the foul to your opponent it will be good for you and for pool as well.
Also it is according to the rules you are playinf by but no matter at least indicate the foul to your opponent it will be good for you and for pool as well.
I play in a men's fun league and have for the past 8 years or so. We play 8 ball. It is, apparently, expected that players will cheat and it is widely considered wrong to try to do anything about it. We can have one call up during play and it is against the rules for any coaching outside of the one call up. Two weeks ago, a player on the other team fouled (no rail after contact) and went and sat down. The player on our team looked at the situation for awhile, then called me up for coaching. I immediately told him I would take ball in hand because the other player fouled. The other team came unglued. Some thought I hadn't been called up, but all were angry that I would tell him about the foul. It actually almost came to blows. It's $2 per person per night. I've seen players double hit the cue ball, wait until a player takes BIH somewhere other than behind the head string after the break and call a foul after their shot, let them shoot at the wrong group of balls then call a foul, completely miss a ball then say they hit it when asked if it's BIH, etc. Pretty much any kind of poor sportsmanship and never calling a foul on yourself is standard fare. I just don't get it. It quite often completely takes the fun part out of the evening.