Illustration of BHE....

[Jaden]

A lot of the time when you miss it's a matter of poor stroke....

I gotta say this discussion is confusing the hell outta this non BHE guy.

The video was useful Jaden,simple and well done.I had to see one earlier to fully grasp the concept a few montha ago.I had not heard of BHE before reading of it here so it was a real eye opener to see it in action.Yours demonstrated it well too.

SO...having gotten the "concept" down...bare in mind I'm ignorant to the ways of the BHE besides dicussions here and yours and one other video....When I miss should a blame:

a)poor pivot accuracy.
b)Poor bridge length.
c)Stroke
d)idiocy (my current favorite)
e)squirt
f)swerve
g)squerve??
h)just bad aim
i) high deflection shaft
j)LD shaft.
ECT ECT ECT....

There seem to many many more things "different" then just shooting a tip of left or right on a shot.Don't all the new varibles mean more opportunites for failure? (read miss)...
And is it worth the effort? Whats the upside considering the effort I guy like me would have to put in to retrain the brain?
If the guys who use it can't agree on how/why it works,how the hell am I gonna figure it out lol?

All serious questions actually,so please don't think I'm just yanking chains.

(rep your way Jaden for the effort,thanks)

The biggest culprit in missing is bad stroke....

This happens a lot of the time because the shot looks wrong and you try to force the cue through the CB.

One way to try and overcome this is to concnetrate on letting the weight of the cue do the work as it makes contact with the CB

Slip stroke and some other techniques are attempts to do this.

It's GOING to vary for different players what works best. The best advice I can give is to give the concepts and tell you to practice well.

When I say practice well, I mean to be mindful of what works and what doesn't.

When you're playing, you don't want to have to think so indepthly, but when you're practicing be especially mindful of what you're doing when you make the shot and it does EXACTLY what you expect it to and be mindful of what you're doing when you miss.

Stop and think about what you might be able to do to eliminate the things you're doing when you miss and what you can do to consciously repeat what you're doing when it comes together.

Its GOING to take some paying attention and some thought and a LOT of practice to really get it to work for you..

Jaden

 

[JB Cases]

I think that's a bit back to front. If we get the the same place we would have using shifted english than we have effectively cancelled out the effects of squirt, swerve and throw.

And another thing, a player can align with shifted english with any bridge length, so there is not an exact position that we are replicating. We are replicating 1 particular alignment for a particular shot with a particular bridge length.

You can't use BHE from all bridge lengths for all shots unless you incorporate some FHE.

Colin

Well I don't know about all shots but I will be putting up a video where I make the same shot using BHE and bridge lengths from right up on the cue ball to the ridiculous three feet away. I did this several times on each bridge length to prove it's not a fluke.

Yes a player can align with SE using any bridge length. They can also get the EXACT same cue alignment from THE SAME bridge length using BHE. That was my original point comparing apples to apples.

As for canceling out squirt, swerve and throw that is not what is happening. You are still accounting for all these but you are not moving your entire body to do it. With SE you must move your whole body to whatever line you think is right to account for squirt, swerve, throw and whatever. With BHE you are doing the same thing only you are just moving the cue stick to the new line instead of your whole body.

The idea is really simple - by moving your whole body to the stick line you can then theoretically stroke straight through the point of contact with perfect mechanics. Using BHE the idea is that you can't stroke straight through because your cue is not aligned with your stance. So if you are teaching someone to play then the conventional wisdom would seem to be that BHE is full of problems with stroking straight through the point of contact on the cueball. In fact there is no problem at all for someone with good fundamentals to use either method.

I don't have time to draw out the diagrams but the one I have partially done bears out what I have found to be true on the table. BHE and SE are the same thing. The only difference is with BHE your body stays on the aiming line and your cue moves to the compensation stick line. You still have to judge how much spin you can put on the ball at what speed in order to make the shot. There is no magic canceling out of anything going on that allows you to simply hit the ball with any combination of spin and speed and have it go in as long as you are on the right aiming line. What BHE does do is give you one aiming line to stay on while deciding how much spin and speed to use.

To make it an easy example - if I had a shot where I had three choices - use no spin, use right spin, use left spin then if I use Shifted English I have to stand on the aiming line for no spin, I have to move my entire body to the left to use right spin, or I have to move my entire body to the right to use left spin. With BHE my body stays in one spot and I simply move my grip hand to the left a little for right spin, to the right a little for left spin and that's it. Much easier to apply spin and IF I should change my mind then I don't have to get back up off the shot.

Also because BHE keeps your body lined up on the aiming line it also means that IF you don't hit the cueball where you think you are, say closer to center, then you will still make the ball whereas with SE you will most likely miss the ball because you have SHIFTED your entire body to a new aiming line.

Hope that explains it.

 

[Jaden]

Let me be clear here.....

Well I don't know about all shots but I will be putting up a video where I make the same shot using BHE and bridge lengths from right up on the cue ball to the ridiculous three feet away. I did this several times on each bridge length to prove it's not a fluke.

Yes a player can align with SE using any bridge length. They can also get the EXACT same cue alignment from THE SAME bridge length using BHE. That was my original point comparing apples to apples.

As for canceling out squirt, swerve and throw that is not what is happening. You are still accounting for all these but you are not moving your entire body to do it. With SE you must move your whole body to whatever line you think is right to account for squirt, swerve, throw and whatever. With BHE you are doing the same thing only you are just moving the cue stick to the new line instead of your whole body.

The idea is really simple - by moving your whole body to the stick line you can then theoretically stroke straight through the point of contact with perfect mechanics. Using BHE the idea is that you can't stroke straight through because your cue is not aligned with your stance. So if you are teaching someone to play then the conventional wisdom would seem to be that BHE is full of problems with stroking straight through the point of contact on the cueball. In fact there is no problem at all for someone with good fundamentals to use either method.

I don't have time to draw out the diagrams but the one I have partially done bears out what I have found to be true on the table. BHE and SE are the same thing. The only difference is with BHE your body stays on the aiming line and your cue moves to the compensation stick line. You still have to judge how much spin you can put on the ball at what speed in order to make the shot. There is no magic canceling out of anything going on that allows you to simply hit the ball with any combination of spin and speed and have it go in as long as you are on the right aiming line. What BHE does do is give you one aiming line to stay on while deciding how much spin and speed to use.

To make it an easy example - if I had a shot where I had three choices - use no spin, use right spin, use left spin then if I use Shifted English I have to stand on the aiming line for no spin, I have to move my entire body to the left to use right spin, or I have to move my entire body to the right to use left spin. With BHE my body stays in one spot and I simply move my grip hand to the left a little for right spin, to the right a little for left spin and that's it. Much easier to apply spin and IF I should change my mind then I don't have to get back up off the shot.

Also because BHE keeps your body lined up on the aiming line it also means that IF you don't hit the cueball where you think you are, say closer to center, then you will still make the ball whereas with SE you will most likely miss the ball because you have SHIFTED your entire body to a new aiming line.

Hope that explains it.

BHE is NOT a beginner's technique for the easy application of sidespin......

The people that I've taught who have become great players don't even necessarily use BHE. It is one technique that works well if applied correctly and worked with.

A player when they start learning, shouldn't be trying convoluted aiming systems, banking systems, ways of consistently using english etc.

It's going to greatly depend on how sound their fundamentals are and what level of thought pattern they're at as to whether something like parallel aiming methods, BHE etc... can be successfully used.

The first thing a person trying to improve their game should do is learn proper mechanics.

The second thing they should learn is potting, usually using a simple visualization technique like ghost ball.

Then before they EVER try using side spin, they should get good enough at the other things like utilizing tangent and natural angles, and then follow and draw to get to the right positions.

It's not until someone can consistently run five or more balls in a rotation based game like nineball, that I would suggest learning the advanced concepts that using sidespin entails. throwing a ball, killing the cueball, accelerated OB while slowing the CB via outside english. changing banking angles.

These are advanced concepts that should only be learned by those who have mastered the early concepts.

You don't take a yellow belt, or even a first dan karate student and ask him to learn how to break a 3 foot thick chunk of ice with his head.

The same should apply to billiards or anything for that matter.

Different levels of proficiency should concentrate on different aspects of the game.

Jaden

 

[Colin Colenso]

Whoops,sorry Colin for missing your answer to my post.



That said,the upside is what?
I think the answer to my question will help me,at least,further grasp the concept on a more "aha!!" level.

Thanks again.

The upside for me has been developing the capability of performing shots with english with more accuracy and for a wider array of shots than I would have previously considered attempting.

That has allowed me to develop a better knowledge of:
1. Where the CB goes with variations of angles, speed and spin.
2. Knowing when it makes sense to play for position that will have benefits when executed with english.

Basically this is summarized by my opinion that it allows a player a quicker path toward competence playing with english.

Colin

 

[JB Cases]

BHE is NOT a beginner's technique for the easy application of sidespin......

The people that I've taught who have become great players don't even necessarily use BHE. It is one technique that works well if applied correctly and worked with.

A player when they start learning, shouldn't be trying convoluted aiming systems, banking systems, ways of consistently using english etc.

It's going to greatly depend on how sound their fundamentals are and what level of thought pattern they're at as to whether something like parallel aiming methods, BHE etc... can be successfully used.

The first thing a person trying to improve their game should do is learn proper mechanics.

The second thing they should learn is potting, usually using a simple visualization technique like ghost ball.

Then before they EVER try using side spin, they should get good enough at the other things like utilizing tangent and natural angles, and then follow and draw to get to the right positions.

It's not until someone can consistently run five or more balls in a rotation based game like nineball, that I would suggest learning the advanced concepts that using sidespin entails. throwing a ball, killing the cueball, accelerated OB while slowing the CB via outside english. changing banking angles.

These are advanced concepts that should only be learned by those who have mastered the early concepts.

You don't take a yellow belt, or even a first dan karate student and ask him to learn how to break a 3 foot thick chunk of ice with his head.

The same should apply to billiards or anything for that matter.

Different levels of proficiency should concentrate on different aspects of the game.

Jaden

No doubt. I have people shooting everything with center ball only for a long time before I allow them to use spin.

I don't think I implied that using spin itself is easy. Al I am trying to do is get everyone to understand that BHE is not a magic bullet. It's a different way to accomplish the same thing. I think it's a better way but ONLY because of the rooted stance on center ball and for no other reason. I think that the rooted stance makes for more solid pool and easier decision making when applying spin.

I do feel that a GREAT many books need to be rewritten when it comes to teaching people how to apply side spin. I think that using SE is poisonous because it does require the shooter to make whole body adjustments for every different degree of spin they want to use.

But having said that I want to be clear that properly done SE and BHE achieve exactly the same stick line so it's counter productive when promoting BHE to say things like "cancels out squirt" when this is not what is happening.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I finally got the energy to read the thread.

I use BHE for nearly every english shot (and have for nearly a decade). Naturally, if I'm close to the OB and feel like whacking it without a pivot, I do.

For the life of me, I can't think of one reason why you wouldn't want to use BHE. Whitewolf made some comments saying BHE was a bad habit, and I couldn't disagree more. I personally think it's a bad habit to do anything but. I see a lot of people pivot strangely that result in missed shots and maybe even look a little twisted (so in that respect, Wolfie is correct)

You can actually center-center the majority of your shots in while running out with bhe (pivoting enough to slightly cut the CB). When locking your cue on the center/center line, you hip pivot (which equates to "sinking" into your tip position from your hip ...VERY slight movement).

The result is your cue/eye line are congruent and you're in the "best" stroking position to pocket the ball. As I said, for the life of me, I can't think of a better way to apply english... and I've been reading this thread all morning.

This isn't a beginner technique; however, if you're a decent player and you're not educating yourself on this stuff-- you're cheating yourself out of knowledge.

There's a whole world to this stuff that many people knock because they don't get it. Using english is an art no matter what technique you use. If you compare base techniques such as BHE, FHE, combo of the 2, parallel or whatever to MMA styles for instance...... you can kill anyone with any style if you master the style. Who's to say jiu jitsu is better than muay tai when someone is locking you up behind your head, dropping knees to your mouth?

It's my humble opinion that BHE is the best base to build your personal english "art" form.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Well I don't know about all shots but I will be putting up a video where I make the same shot using BHE and bridge lengths from right up on the cue ball to the ridiculous three feet away. I did this several times on each bridge length to prove it's not a fluke.

If you video this, I hope you'll do it playing the shots with the same speed and that there is at least 3 feet between CB and OB.

I'm not saying you can't do it, but I believe you'll have to change one of the variables to achieve it. i.e. Initial aim, add FHE, cue swoop or stroke speed.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the other things you said, but I'll still use the terminology that the BHE method cancels out squerve. That is the basis of the system that I have developed for applying it. It all works backwards from there and it is totally systematized. Perhaps you're doing it a bit differently, which is fine. There's more than one way to skin a cat. :wink:

Colin

 

[JB Cases]

If you video this, I hope you'll do it playing the shots with the same speed and that there is at least 3 feet between CB and OB.

I'm not saying you can't do it, but I believe you'll have to change one of the variables to achieve it. i.e. Initial aim, add FHE, cue swoop or stroke speed.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the other things you said, but I'll still use the terminology that the BHE method cancels out squerve. That is the basis of the system that I have developed for applying it. It all works backwards from there and it is totally systematized. Perhaps you're doing it a bit differently, which is fine. There's more than one way to skin a cat. :wink:

Colin

I did video it - yesterday. Yesterday I went to the pool room and tried to capture on video using my little camera some of the concepts I have been imparting.

Maybe you won't believe the video when you see it but it's what happens - no swoop, no FHE, no variable speed, same distance between the object ball and cue ball, only difference is the bridge distance between the bridge hand and the cue ball.

 

[JB Cases]

I want to know why this is not a beginner technique?

WHY wouldn't you want to teach a person BHE from the beginning? Why have them learn anything else?

To me you would want to have a beginner developing their feel using the right techniques from the beginning.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I did video it - yesterday. Yesterday I went to the pool room and tried to capture on video using my little camera some of the concepts I have been imparting.

Maybe you won't believe the video when you see it but it's what happens - no swoop, no FHE, no variable speed, same distance between the object ball and cue ball, only difference is the bridge distance between the bridge hand and the cue ball.

JB,
If that's true, then it seems to me you've broken the laws of physics. Last time I heard a claim like that the video showed movement of the bridge hand which is FHE.

You didn't mention changing original aim, that could still account for it.

I hope you can get the video up so we can take a look at it. The concept of BHE is based on a cue's pivot point from everything I've learned. The concept of pivot point is related to cancelling out squirt or squerve.

Hence, you're making a big claim here, saying that you can play BHE with variable pivot points.

Not having a go at you. Just explaining why I'm not giving you a free pass, because what you are suggesting is revolutionary.

Colin

[EDIT: Just for clarification, in the fist 4-5 minutes of my video on pivoting and BHE here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERFTM8dbat0 .... though it is hard to see, I demonstrate, when aiming at a block of chalk, as pivot from about 5 inches and one of about 20 inches. The short pivot misses the target left by about 2 inches, the long pivot misses to the right by 1 inch. This is an easy to replicate test. I bring this up becuase it seems JB is saying that he can change bridge lengths without affecting the direction of the CB. ]

 

[Colin Colenso]

I want to know why this is not a beginner technique?

WHY wouldn't you want to teach a person BHE from the beginning? Why have them learn anything else?

To me you would want to have a beginner developing their feel using the right techniques from the beginning.

For me it would be the first english system I'd introduce a new player to, but as others have said, I'd begin this only after they'd developed a fair degree of competency in aiming and stroking.

Colin

 

[Patrick Johnson]

SpiderDave:
For the life of me, I can't think of one reason why you wouldn't want to use BHE.

I wouldn't want to use it because it might limit my range of sidespin shots to a certain range of variables (speed, distance, tip offset, etc.). I consider it a workable alternative for those who want or need to avoid learning to weigh those variables directly, but a compromise.

pj
chgo

 

[JB Cases]

JB,
If that's true, then it seems to me you've broken the laws of physics. Last time I heard a claim like that the video showed movement of the bridge hand which is FHE.

You didn't mention changing original aim, that could still account for it.

I hope you can get the video up so we can take a look at it. The concept of BHE is based on a cue's pivot point from everything I've learned. The concept of pivot point is related to cancelling out squirt or squerve.

Hence, you're making a big claim here, saying that you can play BHE with variable pivot points.

Not having a go at you. Just explaining why I'm not giving you a free pass, because what you are suggesting is revolutionary.

Colin

[EDIT: Just for clarification, in the fist 4-5 minutes of my video on pivoting and BHE here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERFTM8dbat0 .... though it is hard to see, I demonstrate, when aiming at a block of chalk, as pivot from about 5 inches and one of about 20 inches. The short pivot misses the target left by about 2 inches, the long pivot misses to the right by 1 inch. This is an easy to replicate test. I bring this up becuase it seems JB is saying that he can change bridge lengths without affecting the direction of the CB. ]

I understand. I will see if I can put it up in a little while on YOuTube.

 

[JB Cases]

I wouldn't want to use it because it might limit my range of sidespin shots to a certain range of variables (speed, distance, tip offset, etc.). I consider it a workable alternative for those who want or need to avoid learning to weigh those variables directly, but a compromise.

pj
chgo

How so? You have all the same options available to you with BHE.

In addition then you also have the advantage of using shifted english when you need a slight masse.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I wouldn't want to use it because it might limit my range of sidespin shots to a certain range of variables (speed, distance, tip offset, etc.). I consider it a workable alternative for those who want or need to avoid learning to weigh those variables directly, but a compromise.

pj
chgo

Not sure what you mean...although I want to understand where you're coming from. Would you mind expanding a little?

When I use BHE, I don't feel limited... I feel as though I have total control of my english. When I don't use BHE, I feel as though I'm guessing. When I'm using BHE, I feel as though I know I'm making the ball and getting to where I'm going.

I think you want to avoid weighing those variables directly - IMO "weighing variables" makes you miss (which is a little of what Dick said). BHE eliminates many of those variables (at least noticeably) and you get the same outcome.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I wouldn't want to use [BHE] because it might limit my range of sidespin shots to a certain range of variables (speed, distance, tip offset, etc.). I consider it a workable alternative for those who want or need to avoid learning to weigh those variables directly, but a compromise.

pj
chgo

JB:
How so? You have all the same options available to you with BHE.

But the purpose of BHE is to reduce the options a player needs to deal with. By automating a big chunk of the aim correction process, it makes it less necessary to develop skills for the task and fosters oversimplification.

I suspect that, like aiming systems, it tends to encourage the learning of a selection of "standard settings" that work OK for most situations but lack refinement, limit the number and kinds of shots available and make creativity less feasible.

In addition then you also have the advantage of using shifted english when you need a slight masse.

Huh?

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

But the purpose of BHE is to reduce the options a player needs to deal with. By automating a big chunk of the aim correction process, it makes it less necessary to develop skills for the task and fosters oversimplification.

I suspect that, like aiming systems, it tends to encourage the learning of a selection of "standard settings" that work OK for most situations but lack refinement, limit the number and kinds of shots available and make creativity less feasible.



Huh?

pj
chgo

I see what you're saying, although I strongly disagree. Can you give an example of where BHE cannot give you a good outcome where a traditional (straight-on) shot is required (outside of masse shots or jump shots w/ english, etc).

I run a lot of balls using BHE exclusively - I can't think of any circumstances where I limit myself.

Successful oversimplification = perfected execution.

Re: the aiming systems encourage standard settings..... you're totally right. It gives me the standard setting for center-pocket.

I would love to see a video of you play. I mean this sincerely. I'm curious to see how you apply english, how you control the rock and make balls. If there's a better way, I wanna learn.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I see what you're saying, although I strongly disagree. Can you give an example of where BHE cannot give you a good outcome where a traditional (straight-on) shot is required (outside of masse shots or jump shots w/ english, etc).

I run a lot of balls using BHE exclusively - I can't think of any circumstances where I limit myself.

Successful oversimplification = perfected execution.

Re: the aiming systems encourage standard settings..... you're totally right. It gives me the standard setting for center-pocket.

I would love to see a video of you play. I mean this sincerely. I'm curious to see how you apply english, how you control the rock and make balls. If there's a better way, I wanna learn.

I don't think it's possible to see how anybody aims or deals with squirt unless you're seeing with their eyes and thinking with their brain - the differences are too subtle. That's why I don't take it seriously when anybody says they know how pros do it from watching videos.

What I can tell you is that I don't use any systems; I do everything "by feel" but also try to be fully aware of what I'm doing and to learn and consciously apply as much knowledge as possible, trying to internalize and integrate it all so that it becomes more and more natural over time but without losing awareness.

I could be wrong about the limiting nature of BHE and aiming systems - I'm just saying why I won't try them, not that nobody should. Giving any of them a fair try would be at least a lengthy side trip that I don't have a reason to take - not that I play great, just that I do as well as can be expected for the time and effort I put into it.

If I learn something about a system that I think I can integrate with my methods I'll give that a try, but a whole new way of doing things is more than I'm willing or think I need to undertake. More power to you with it.

pj
chgo

 

[JB Cases]

But the purpose of BHE is to reduce the options a player needs to deal with. By automating a big chunk of the aim correction process, it makes it less necessary to develop skills for the task and fosters oversimplification.

I suspect that, like aiming systems, it tends to encourage the learning of a selection of "standard settings" that work OK for most situations but lack refinement, limit the number and kinds of shots available and make creativity less feasible.



Huh?

pj
chgo

The "purpose" is to do what? Who created and when was it that a "mission statement" for BHE was created?

BHE does not automate the aiming correction process - the (your term) aiming correction process over complicates the whole thing and ends up with the cue in the EXACT some position as it would be with BHE.

You still have to know what the cue ball is going to do, you have to be in tune with your cue, your stroke, the conditions, the balls, the speed and so on. BHE doesn't eliminate any of that. All it does for you is keep you on one line physically and allow you to move your cue to the desired stick line. The SAME stick line that you would arrive at using the "aiming correction process method" that has poisoned thousands
of people for decades.

I have no idea how you can figure that using BHE limits creativity. In fact it fosters it by allowing the shooter to literally change their mind mid-stroke and apply right spin instead of left and still make the ball. Using the misguided SE method the shooter is LOCKED IN to one application of spin for the shot and if they decide to do something else then they must stand up and readjust, guess again, and get back down on the new line. That is much more involved and complicated.

You "suspect"? Come on Pat, you can use better logic than this as we have been discussing this topic for a decade.

Take a straight in shot. What is the range of off-center hits that can be used to strike the cue ball? For simplicity's sake let's say that it's six positions. Top Right - Right - Bottom Right - Top Left - Left - Bottom Left.

Using BHE I can reach all of these positions from one single stance position. Using SE or your term - aiming correction process - I have to adjust my stance six times to reach each position.

So I think it's quite obvious that the range of shots using BHE is indeed the same as with SE. You don't need to suspect that it's limiting because it's not.

I will give you the $100 challenge. Since you think BHE is limited, show me a shot that can be made with a level stroke using SE that cannot be made using BHE. Demonstrate that shot on video and I will donate $100 to the billiard entity of your choice.

 

[JB Cases]

For Colin:

Here is the video - sorry I had to put something over the pool hall noise as it is too loud.

I realize that you cannot see the balls going in and have no overhead layout to reference. So you'll just have to trust me that all the balls go in the corner pocket with no misses.

Here is a CueTable layout to give you the postions of the balls and my approximate bridge lengths.

CueTable Help

And finally - the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNrpN3V15fY