Image of "pool"

[rayjay]

"A rose, by any other name, is still a rose."

I choose pool. The image won't change by changing the name. The image will change by mass participation, when folks see people they admire and respect playing pool. Media exposure helps, like it did with poker. Poker didn't have to change it's name to get wide acceptance, but, for some reason, it is much more widely accepted than it once was, even though there are some pretty rowdy players on TV. A professional poker player used to be a pretty shady character, not too long ago. When good pool players start getting respect for their pool abilities, like good poker players, the image will change for the better. JMO.

 

[DeadPoked]

I choose "pool," even with all the negatives it posseses. Its positives outweigh the negatives.

Why? One thing I've learned in marketing is to use words a 13 year old can understand. Especially at the beginning of a conversation with a prospect. If I use words that have meaning to ME, but not to the prospect, the prospect's mind wanders away from my message and I've lost them.

I know you have an interesting way of talking to people about what you do. That's fine and dandy and I appreciated the way you do it. But to expect the pool world to adopt your style is hopeful, at best.

Prospect: "What do you do when you're not working?"

Pool player: "I play pool every week with other people like me who like to have fun for a couple of hours, socialize, not sweat, and maybe even make some money once in a while."

Or, talking to a hotel clerk, eg..."Hi. I'm looking for someone to play pool with. Do you know anyone who is pretty good and would like to play a game or two tonight?"

fwiw,

Jeff Livingston

Or how about...


Or, talking to a hotel clerk, eg..."Hi. I'm looking for someone to participate with me in the art of cueing. Do you know anyone who is pretty good and would like to play a game or two tonight?"

Hotel clerk, "Yes sir. There is a club down the street called the Upside Down Barstool where you may find what you are looking for... Mostly men there."

 

[PKM]

I just asked my friend if he wants to play some cueing arts this weekend. He gave me a swift, backhanded slap. I had to admit that it was well-deserved, and we agreed to shoot some pool.

 

[Cuebacca]

A 100% OPEN MIND IS PRICELESS!

A 100% POSITIVE OUTLOOK IS RARE!

A 100% ELIMINATION OF THE NEGATIVE IN "POOL" IS 100% NECESSARY FOR THE SPORT IF ANYONE EVER WANTS THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO SEE IT AS A POSITIVE LIGHT!

"POOL" = NEGATIVE
"CUEING ARTS" = POSITIVE

YOU CHOOSE....

100% CAPS IS ANNOYING!

Sorry Mr. Oyster, I couldn't resist (it's a pet peeve).

 

[tiptoety]

It's funny this topic came up. I'm a 3rd generation pool player, my grandfather taught my dad, my dad taught me. And I've taught my son, over the last year he's become more confident in his abilities, has a higher self esteem, has met some great kids his age to be friends with. Pool has been a common interest for both of us, it's something that has allowed my son and I to have a stronger bond.

Recently however child services were involved in a matter pertaining to his mother. In her defense to told the social worker that my son would rather spend his saturday mornings playing and winning pool tournaments (junior tournaments every saturday for 3 dollar entry).

I wasn't around for this converation but the outcome was that the social worker forbid my son from ever shooting pool solely on the ignorant image of what she thinks pool's about. she claims it's a bad influence, and that by me exposing him to such a lifestyle i'm endagering my child.

So now I'm wondering about my own parenting skills, maybe she's right? I don't fully believe so. I've never seen my son more proud of himself, focused and determined to do well, yet alone confident that he can achieve anything in life then when he won his little junior tournament. I don't think snooker has this type of image implanted in Europe. I'm 3rd gen pool player, me, my dad and grandfather have turned out fine. I don't see what negative influence pool has. The benefits DO outweigh whatever bad stuff people think about it.

Beer is served at restaurants - bad influence? Many families include their children in mini poker tournaments and gamble - bad influence? The owner of the room even holds Christian sermons on Sunday mornings right out of the room. How is this a bad influence?

 

[Cuebacca]

So, I've been wondering, what do you say when you want to go participate in a little cueing arts session with your friends? I'd usually say something like, "ay Vinnie, you wanna go shoot some pool"? If we want to try out this fancy new attitude, how do you propose this get-together with your friend? "Hello, Vincent, shall we rendezvous this evening and partake in a 1 on 1 cueing arts competition?" It just feels a little cumbersome.

Cueing arts IMO cannot replace the word pool. Cueing arts MAYBE can replace "cue sports", but what's wrong with "cue sports"? Hmm, a lot of the popular sports end with "ball". How about calling it "cueball", or "cuesketball", or "stroke ball".

Then again, Golf is popular and it has a one-syllable name that's easy to say. We need a replacement for "cueing arts" like that. I've got it! How about "pool"? Oh wait...

 

[mthornto]

How about calling it "cueball", or "cuesketball", or "stroke ball".

Noe "cuesketball" I can get behind. Brilliant! Rep your way.

 

[Slider]

Recently however child services were involved in a matter pertaining to his mother. In her defense to told the social worker that my son would rather spend his saturday mornings playing and winning pool tournaments (junior tournaments every saturday for 3 dollar entry).

While your situation is unfortunate, don't question your judgement. Simply realize that 'Social Work" is not an vocation based on logic or reality. I've seen child services insist on a barrier screen to keep the family puppy from the passenger area because a former spouse was "concerned" about the safety of the child. In many cases, when a dispute arises, they have to "play safe", because of the litigious nature of society. And to be truthful, it's not easy to be the referee in a pissing contest.

Ken

 

[Island Drive]

I knew someone would make a point of that. Steve, glad you caught it in time. Hopefully it was way obvious long ago as to my comment on my opinion of the "Cueing Arts", why not! Nothing negative there. My point earlier...Billiards is still much better than "pool", I was merely pointing out an example of where the sport could be. A very high vision of what could be achieved with a healthy change.

Why is "Pool and Billiard magazine including both terms in their name? Is it two different things as the name implies? If so what is the difference?

I believe "pool" origin is late 17th century French "poule" meaning stake or kitty and originally meant for cards with gambling. We should sell the name to the poker tour, it's fits them perfectly.

Now Billiards is late 16th century denoting both the game and the cue, i.e. "cueing" and "art"...application of human creative skill and imagination in visual form appreciated for beauty and/or emotional power.

Billiards is good and very timely accurate and then again the "Cueing Arts" really takes it a step further.

Years back Brunswick tried to change the name of pool to pocket billiards, they promoted it this way for years, even making the Gold Crowns with orange and blue aprons, they finally gave up....it is what it is. The only way you can change is to start at the bottom up and make it acceptable to youth, high school and college, here lies your base and your rooting to set the sports evolution in motion.

 

[nyjoe14.1]

I don't play "pool". In fact I refuse to be anywhere near smokey "pool rooms". Who ever said I was embarrassed. You obviously have no idea who I am. Now I remember why I don't frequent these forums.

"Pool" will always carry the negative baggage. The "Cueing Arts" is the positive side. You choose which side you feel most comfortable on.

There is clearly two levels of class here within this sport. "Pool" is to "putt-putt" as the Cueing Arts is to the PGA.

“I’d rather laugh w/ the sinners than cry w/ the saints, the sinners are much more fun.”

That’s my take on this. I think most people are more attracted to the seedy side of pool anyway. The Hustler and the Color of Money are main stream classics, enough said.

 

[AOyster]

Reply #1

I choose "pool," even with all the negatives it posseses. Its positives outweigh the negatives.

Why? One thing I've learned in marketing is to use words a 13 year old can understand. Especially at the beginning of a conversation with a prospect. If I use words that have meaning to ME, but not to the prospect, the prospect's mind wanders away from my message and I've lost them.

I know you have an interesting way of talking to people about what you do. That's fine and dandy and I appreciated the way you do it. But to expect the pool world to adopt your style is hopeful, at best.

Prospect: "What do you do when you're not working?"

Pool player: "I play pool every week with other people like me who like to have fun for a couple of hours, socialize, not sweat, and maybe even make some money once in a while."

Or, talking to a hotel clerk, eg..."Hi. I'm looking for someone to play pool with. Do you know anyone who is pretty good and would like to play a game or two tonight?"

fwiw,

Jeff Livingston

Just a comment on the question..."What do you do when you're not working?"

When you do what you love as a true passion there is no such thing as work. Besides teaching and playing, I spend my time being healthy. Working out in the gym, roller balding, running on the beach, bowling, growing.juicing wheatgrass, juicing 4-5 times per day 100% organic, researching health, playing tennis, all things with my girlfriend "Misty Mermaid", (the one in the videos) and mentally creating new ways to help others understand this game we all love better, faster and easier.

Great reply!

 

[AOyster]

So, I've been wondering, what do you say when you want to go participate in a little cueing arts session with your friends? I'd usually say something like, "ay Vinnie, you wanna go shoot some pool"? If we want to try out this fancy new attitude, how do you propose this get-together with your friend? "Hello, Vincent, shall we rendezvous this evening and partake in a 1 on 1 cueing arts competition?" It just feels a little cumbersome.

Cueing arts IMO cannot replace the word pool. Cueing arts MAYBE can replace "cue sports", but what's wrong with "cue sports"? Hmm, a lot of the popular sports end with "ball". How about calling it "cueball", or "cuesketball", or "stroke ball".

Then again, Golf is popular and it has a one-syllable name that's easy to say. We need a replacement for "cueing arts" like that. I've got it! How about "pool"? Oh wait...

I don't go out to play very often and never where there is smoking. This is the reason, but belive me I would love to be able to. I just refuse to inhale poison. When I do play it is "Let's go hit some balls". Yes I do agree totally with the simplictiy of the word "pool" like golf. Problem is golf doesn't project a negative image, "pool" does, as we all can agree. No other sport projects such a negaive image of that of "pool". If we all are happy with the current position of "pool" than fine, lets not change the name or image. From my research and students I believe this to be very untrue.

Change is always happening and without doubt, it is healthy and necessary for change to happen. Like it or not, the negative aspects of "pool" are slowly but firmly slipping into history. I think we should let them slip away more easily by taking the name with them.

I would be curious to know how many "cueing arts" rooms have the name billiards in their name vs. "pool" and why?

 

[AOyster]

Years back Brunswick tried to change the name of pool to pocket billiards, they promoted it this way for years, even making the Gold Crowns with orange and blue aprons, they finally gave up....it is what it is. The only way you can change is to start at the bottom up and make it acceptable to youth, high school and college, here lies your base and your rooting to set the sports evolution in motion.

I agree...lets start!

 

[AOyster]

“I’d rather laugh w/ the sinners than cry w/ the saints, the sinners are much more fun.”

That’s my take on this. I think most people are more attracted to the seedy side of pool anyway. The Hustler and the Color of Money are main stream classics, enough said.

I disagree with this...Most people do not like the negative side of "pool" they just take the bad with the good but would prefer the alternative, at least 99% of all my students agree with this. I question them about this almost on a daily basis and the majority of my students come to me because of the clean atmosphere and healthy arena. I vary rarley have students who are bar players. Most have tables at home and are above income well educated people. I belive this is a huge part of why both my schools are so full every month.

The smoking ban in Florida was won by a 76% vote. The other 24 was probably people paid by the tobacco companies to vote the other way.

Great post so far and the replies are super. You all have some great thoughts and relies. Thanks!!!

Have a great one!

 

[Slider]

I would be curious to know how many "cueing arts" rooms have the name billiards in their name vs. "pool" and why?

As far as "why", that's fairly easy. As I understand it, the group of games generally regarded as "Pool" involve pocketing balls. A well rounded "Cue Sports" room frequently offers 3C billiards and snooker tables as well, hence the use of the more general term of "Billiards".

I suspect that if someone was to actually take a survey, they might find that a healthy percentage of the establishments which qualify as "Pool Halls" don't have "Billiards" in their name either. I believe this is simply a result of the desire for a unique, trendy name, however one could also blame it on the same sort of pretentiousness that spawns phrases such as "Cueing Arts".

Ken

 

[nyjoe14.1]

I disagree with this...Most people do not like the negative side of "pool" they just take the bad with the good but would prefer the alternative, at least 99% of all my students agree with this. I question them about this almost on a daily basis and the majority of my students come to me because of the clean atmosphere and healthy arena. I vary rarley have students who are bar players. Most have tables at home and are above income well educated people. I belive this is a huge part of why both my schools are so full every month.

The smoking ban in Florida was won by a 76% vote. The other 24 was probably people paid by the tobacco companies to vote the other way.

Great post so far and the replies are super. You all have some great thoughts and relies. Thanks!!!

Have a great one!

I’d really like to meet those people and find out what got them interested in pool in the first place then. If you completely sanitize pool it will loose that mystique that gets most people interested in pool in the first place. They don’t make movies about fun night at the BCA league. The aura of the hustle or for lack of a better term “counter culture” is what draws the majority of people to pool in the first place in my opinion.

I have only been to the DCC once, but as I recall there were as many people there to watch the tournament as there were to sweat the action. I really think that if they shut down the action the crowd would be nowhere near as large as it was. Just this forum alone was full of people wanting action reports, and lets face it the people on this board are the heart and soul of pool in America. So here’s what I’m going to do: when im finished posting this I’m going to start a poll to see what got all the AZ members interested in pool in the first place. I’ll be willing to bet that most people will be w/ me on this one. If I’m wrong next time your in Cincinnati look me up and ill buy you dinner.

 

[Slider]

I disagree with this...Most people do not like the negative side of "pool" they just take the bad with the good but would prefer the alternative, at least 99% of all my students agree with this. I question them about this almost on a daily basis and the majority of my students come to me because of the clean atmosphere and healthy arena. I vary rarley have students who are bar players. Most have tables at home and are above income well educated people. I belive this is a huge part of why both my schools are so full every month.

I think there are misconceptions about what the "seedy" side of pool is, and I don't think that it's necessarily the same thing as the "negative" side. Having dangerous sociopaths hanging around any establishment would constitute a negative, however anyone in law enforcement will tell you that gambling meccas such as Reno and Las Vegas are magnets for all sorts of criminals, however that doesn't seem to dampen heavy tourism in these locations.

It's not strictly the gambling aspect of pool either, since a very large percentage of our population enjoys wagering on games of chance. Curiously, people seem to prefer wagering on pure luck against established house odds than on their own skills. I guess there's no surprise ego blow when you know in your heart that you're supposed to lose before you even start to play.

The impression that I've picked up over the years is that John and Jane Doe are reluctant to visit a pool hall because they are afraid of being "hustled" - a concept that I find laughable. All hustles are based on the greed of the "mark". You cannot "hustle" someone unless they think that they are going to beat you. Therefore, the average person stands as much chance of getting "hustled" as they do of buying a box of wood and bricks packaged as a TV out of someone's trunk.

Speaking of hustling, it took a lot of creative license on the part of Scorsese to craft the scene where Amos "hustles" Eddie, and a considerable suspension of disbelief on the part of the viewer in order to buy it, since it was a hustle without any plausible angle at all. I guess we're supposed to walk away thinking that it was the booze and runaway ego that did it, or that maybe it was done on purpose as a lesson to Vincent.

The smoking ban in Florida was won by a 76% vote. The other 24 was probably people paid by the tobacco companies to vote the other way.

My guess is that the 24% were smokers protecting their habit.

It sounds as you have an upper-middle class clientele, based on their income and the fact that they can afford their own table, a home with a large enough room to properly stage it, and lessons. In your conversations with your students, what exactly do they consider the negative aspects of pool?

Ken

 

[justnum]

If your going to discuss the "theory of hustling" you can't leave out good ole Eddie Felson. As he beautifully reflects all aspects of the sport. The weathered spirit, the loneliness, the intangible strength and how can you forget that lovely lady sarah. A hustler meeting a prune who makes him realize his life is meaningful at the expense of her death.

 

[DelaWho???]

Dark rooms with big ornate heavy pieces of furnature, mahogany panelling on the walls. Guys in rumpled business suits smoking cigars, drinking straight whiskey, sitting in high chairs, stone faced watching the men work the green felt......A sort of gangsteresque, 50's, old boys club with men gambling whlie they should be out in the real world, in the sunlight making an "honest" living....This is the image of pool swimming around in my mind... Guys looking like Edward G. Robinson sweating the action, an old guy in a visor with sleeve garters, keeping score on the hanging beads....What's wrong with this picture??? It has a certaqin mystique about it, out in the open with it's seedy underbelly exposed proudly for all to see, and men to admire.....That is pool....

McCue Banger McCue

 

[Scaramouche]

Proof Of Pool's Bad Image

The unwashed rabble play in public pool halls, the rich in their mansions play in private billiard rooms