The logistics of putting on a dart tournament are a bit different then a pool tournament with tables lighting seating a ton of needed square footage just to accommodate it and so on. I large pool tournament is a major undertaking.
Industry Supporting Industry
- Thread starter JAM
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The logistics of putting on a dart tournament are a bit different then a pool tournament with tables lighting seating a ton of needed square footage just to accommodate it and so on. I large pool tournament is a major undertaking.
Are you contradicting me or not.
I think you're right, LAlouie. Professional pool in the States does not have industry support.
The pool industry does, however, seem to support other pool industry members monetarily, though it does not seem to have the same mind-set about sponsoring professional pool players monetarily.
Could you please explain to me what you are talking about or I guess I should
say who you are talking about when you say:
"If they could cease with their money-grabbing ways long enough to get their foot in-the-door with the American public."
I just am not sure who you are talking about here are you talking about as Jam said in the original post how the: "industry members get fat and continue to grow, and the pro pool players become extinct"
Or are you saying that the pro players need to cease their money grabbing ways, because if that is what your saying I find it hard to imagine how you would feel that way when they (the pros) barely eek
out an existence as it is.
When there's hardly enough money in the prize funds of the few decent size tournaments there are to start with, how could the pros if that's who you are referring to be exhibiting money-grabbing traits when there's
really not enough money to be grabbed by anyone. I venture to say that in most of even the bigger tournaments which are few and far between the pro players have to finish in the top four to make any money at all.
They might just break even after expenses especially if they have any kind of a split with a backer.
So please if you would be kind enough to explain to me who you think is doing the money grabbing?
Someone said that there are just to many sports for pool to compete with, and there's just no interest except for the diehards on the forums.
I just refuse to believe that, you can't compare a sport or sports that are on TV to a sport that is not on TV by looking at the viewership numbers and and come to the conclusion (by any stretch of the imagination) that
there is no interest in the sport with the lower viewership numbers.
In fact I would have to think the only logical assumption that one could derive form this is that if you put the sport (pool) on TV like all the other sports on TV that have a large viewership and are thriving it too would start to thrive and it's numbers as far as viewership would begin to flourish eventually.
But of coarse that wouldn't happen if you let an ESPN (which I prefer to call ESPEW) prostitute the sport and just use it. How are they doing this, well from past experience I would say by using pro pool matches as fill in programing, not having any regular scheduling (viewers have to be able to find it), even when scheduled, suddenly canceled for stations convenience, showing partial games, partial sets, terrible commentators and color men that act like they have never seen a pool match before (Mitch Lawrence) you don't have to dumb it down for a national audience
in fact I would say that's the best way to get people not to watch.
Talk about the intricacies of the game of pool the finer points, english, position play,i.e. playing position to come in on the line of the shot not crossing the line, strategy, shot selection, speed control, sharking or gamesmanship as the one Accu-Stats commentator (Jimmy Wych) calls it. Don't pretend these things (mental games) don't happen (they happen in all competitive sports), explain what edge/advantage someone is trying to gain in other words take what some people already see happening and extrapolate on it or enlighten the people that aren't aware of what's going on to grab their attention/interest. Talk about the great gambling stories of the past, the colorful characters, roadplayers, hustling schemes, these are things the average person doesn't know about, isn't around, and doesn't get to see.
Seems as though pool never gets anywhere, we all know as players if something isn't working you have to change, something. The powers that be have been trying for a long time to white-wash pool, sterilize it if you will (a line used by Billy Incardona when commentating with Grady on how this called shot stuff can over sanitize/sterilize the game of 9 Ball, which Buddy Hall was referenced as calling Hully-Gully down and dirty 9-Ball) and it hasn't produced good results, and I'm saying that the powers that be are going about things ass backward.
Not only to the point of sterilizing the actual games to the point where their painful to watch (what the players may want rules wise in 9 and 10 ball, call shot, call safe, the tightening the pocket trend, ect. is not necessarily good or exciting for the viewing audience) but trying to sterilize the pro players and dumbing-down and sanitizing the commentary to the point that it's just plain boring isn't going to get it, maybe that should be obvious by now.
America has a history and culture of romanticizing and making heroes and legends out of gunslingers and mobsters (Jessie James, Bonnie and Clyde, Machine Gun Kelly) and so on. Now I certainly am not comparing pro players to the
people just mentioned, but people have an interest, intrigue, are inquisitive, they flat out find things that are a little of the beaten path interesting. But you have to make that rich history work for the sport, you must embrace it, even embellish on it, hey don't listen to me I'm just a high school drop out who can't spell very well, who wears their dictionary out writing stuff like this because I love the sport of pool. You might want to take a page out of Minnesota Fats play book though he knew how to tell a story, spin a yarn, he always drew a crowd in the hey day of pool. Why because he kept it interesting, seriously compare his style to the ever so boring ESPN commentator saying WOW great shot for the straight in three footer for the umpteenth time in the match. I could be wrong here but I just can't remember Billy Incardona ever being a commentator on an ESPN telecast. He is the best pool commentator I've ever heard, he is knowledgeable, interesting stories, excellent explanations, funny, he knows how to hold the viewers interest, knows the road, and was a top player who speaks from experience. Also he communicates with the viewer on a higher lever, he doesn't speak to the audience in the usual dumbed down, boring manner like a kindergarten teacher speaking to the class, Espn style.
As far as the BCA being in charge of Professional Pool it begs the question why? Why have a group that shows little interest and less initiative have anything to do with Professional Pool unless you just want to run it into the ground
which it seems they have some ability, in that area!
Seems like I got a little off topic after reading the whole rest of the thread, LOL
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I not sure that I get you but you sure made me laugh!
Contradiction?
I merely cited a couple of the many divisions that make up the Brunswick Family. They have moved on, as you said, from Pool being the Identity of Brunswick. Evidently the Billiards Division is not netting the profits necessary to support in depth a low participation(ROI) entity. That's why Bowling(not done at home) and fishing/boating(not done at home) reap huge returns. All of the table manufaturers have Home Tables.
The Home Market is the cash cow,not Billiard Rooms. That is why Diamond is making major headway towards Bar Owners and Billiard Room Owners. The serious player at home is trending Diamond,that should tell you something.
Not at all. Your assertion that the profit side for Brunswick is Home Sales, which relates to zero interest for competitive pool is exactly correct.
I merely cited a couple of the many divisions that make up the Brunswick Family. They have moved on, as you said, from Pool being the Identity of Brunswick. Evidently the Billiards Division is not netting the profits necessary to support in depth a low participation(ROI) entity. That's why Bowling(not done at home) and fishing/boating(not done at home) reap huge returns. All of the table manufaturers have Home Tables.
The Home Market is the cash cow,not Billiard Rooms. That is why Diamond is making major headway towards Bar Owners and Billiard Room Owners. The serious player at home is trending Diamond,that should tell you something.
Different Breed of Person
American Snooker has been dead for years. The miniscule numbers barely support a yearly tournament. They probably do lament the fact that pool hurt them because they weren't ever schleppt along when pool had it's Movie Booms. Hell,they probably hate The Hunger Games because millions are turning to Archery!!! No Snooker Movie on the Horizon??
Besides, the English have Snooker wrapped up,and the Chinese,Indian,and Middle Easterners are carrying the 3-Cushion Game. Our best need to go there to get the cash,...if they can.
Different demographic altogether. Check the background of 3-C players and most are career oriented elsewhere. They are passionate about enjoying the game and gambling and money aren't a factor. It is an elitist allure that drives them.
American Snooker has been dead for years. The miniscule numbers barely support a yearly tournament. They probably do lament the fact that pool hurt them because they weren't ever schleppt along when pool had it's Movie Booms. Hell,they probably hate The Hunger Games because millions are turning to Archery!!! No Snooker Movie on the Horizon??
Besides, the English have Snooker wrapped up,and the Chinese,Indian,and Middle Easterners are carrying the 3-Cushion Game. Our best need to go there to get the cash,...if they can.
So this answer to JCINs question is essentially "no, those other game players are not so important as to need industry support so that players can make a living playing their game" ?
Dave
I think many on here are greatly underestimating the advantages of Facebook for the Industry side. I can have pages dedicated to my business. Make tournament events and invite people personally. Customers can have direct feedback for good and bad with a company. They can like certain specials or sales which in turn tells the business which are more likely to succeed. Facebook gives me more interaction in a DAY than message boards do in a MONTH. I may only have access to 1000 people on Facebook, but at least those 1000 people WANT to be interacted with. That is better than having 80,000 POTENTIAL customers that may or may not ever speak a word to you. I personally think the industry is pretty far behind in using social media to promote this sport. Maybe like 20 years behind. It still shocks me how many pool rooms dont even have a website or Facebook page, or never claimed their page on Google etc.
I'm talking about things like chopping the payouts, pros playing in amateur events, you know, things like that
.Maniac
LOL! Now that's funny! :grin:
cajunfats said:
Therein is what is happening to the rest of the American pool scene. What few American so-called "pros" are left now must face the fact they need to be a global traveler to continue their pool-playing career. Shooting pool only in the States won't cut the mustard anymore in the year 2012. With the payouts not being as lucrative, the expenses to travel to, say, Asian countries is huge. It is essential to win, place, or show to break even.
The BCA, consisting of industry members, supports industry members and does not seem interested in promoting professional pool, i.e., industry supports industry.
NASA receives less than 1 percent of the United States appropriations in FY2012. The powers-that-be do not believe space travel to be important enough to have NASA provide this service anymore, and instead space travel has been outsourced to commercial entities. If we want to go to the International Space Station, now we must hitch a ride with the Russians to the tune of $60 million per Amerrican astronaut.
I don't know how much it costs to join the BCA, but if a portion of their dues could be allocated to a professional pool tournament, like the BCA Open used to be, wouldn't that be a step in the right direction; that is, if the BCA wants to continue to be the representative organization to the WPA for professional pool in North America? Can they afford a few crumbs for the American pros, or will they continue down the path of industry supporting industry? Their lack of attention to professional pool is blatant. It's time they stepped up to the plate.
If they want no part of professional pool, then, by golly, let them go by the wayside like the UPA did and absolve their responsibility as the professional pool representative to the WPA. It is a travesty. :angry:
I haven't seen the movie yet. I actually used to shoot archery, and I didn't use one of these new-fangled compound bows, either. I had a 40-pound Bear bow and could shoot accurately up to 60 yards.
I like the fact that the heroine is not scantily dressed and is heralded for her archery skills! :grin:
Attachments
She has many attributes worthy of praise...most of all she is kind. The movie brings out our greatest theme: UNITY and KINDNESS. I've never idolize a heroine before. I think most of this movie brings out a very realistic outlook of human character and emotions.
You're right and since this thread is about support for a better situation than what we have now...I have no idea how to correlate this damn movie with the topic. I just saw it mentioned and had to say something about how awestruck it left me. My date even slapped me for crying in the theater. I was loud.
I hope another movie compares to our favorite, with the same type of detail and professionalism as "Hungar Games". Maybe something thoughtful about Shane. And how he can't beat Bustamante.
With all of the social media vehicles available today, wouldn't it be very cool if a female player could produce a video clip that would not only highlight her capabilities on a field of green but also attract a mass audience based on her pool-shooting strength and not her sex appeal?
Something like this could be a catalyst to generate a renewed interest in pool by those who have left it for greener pastures. I know I have my sights on that greener pasture, but I can't help but miss pool. I gave it up for a decade or more to pursue my career, and I never stopped thinking about it.
One Perspective
I have seen many things change in my lifetime,as I am sure you have,and sometimes we have to accept the harsh realities of it. Even Pocket Billiards has changed over the years in order to survive.
My old boss at the BCA, John Lewis was a nationally rated snooker player when he was younger. But,I will bet he hasn't played 50 games of snooker in the last 25 years. He won't find a table in Green Bay,Wisconsin. He runs the ACS,which is a Pocket Billiard Organization essentially. Sure,we sent Tom Kollins to play in World Events,but it was merely to make a presence.
So, I guess in the context of your question, I would say " The industry should not spend money, for a miniscule percentage of players,when an enormous base provides the majority of revenue for their business."
Did Tennis piggyback Racquetball and Badminton to giddy heights of accomplishment and revenue? No.
Unfortunately,it's Business.
Dave, as I said,Snooker is dead in America. If I did an industry search,you would probably find few Snooker Tables being manufactured and sold here. 3-C however has shown some growth due to the influx of Immigrants who have been exposed to Carom Games in their former home.
I have seen many things change in my lifetime,as I am sure you have,and sometimes we have to accept the harsh realities of it. Even Pocket Billiards has changed over the years in order to survive.
My old boss at the BCA, John Lewis was a nationally rated snooker player when he was younger. But,I will bet he hasn't played 50 games of snooker in the last 25 years. He won't find a table in Green Bay,Wisconsin. He runs the ACS,which is a Pocket Billiard Organization essentially. Sure,we sent Tom Kollins to play in World Events,but it was merely to make a presence.
So, I guess in the context of your question, I would say " The industry should not spend money, for a miniscule percentage of players,when an enormous base provides the majority of revenue for their business."
Did Tennis piggyback Racquetball and Badminton to giddy heights of accomplishment and revenue? No.
Unfortunately,it's Business.
With all of the social media vehicles available today, wouldn't it be very cool if a female player could produce a video clip that would not only highlight her capabilities on a field of green but also attract a mass audience based on her pool-shooting strength and not her sex appeal?
Something like this could be a catalyst to generate a renewed interest in pool by those who have left it for greener pastures. I know I have my sights on that greener pasture, but I can't help but miss pool. I gave it up for a decade or more to pursue my career, and I never stopped thinking about it.
Yes, I think that is a great idea. I was there watching Jasmin play years back and was pretty captivated. I didn't know much about pool, still don't, but there is just something about her drive and competitiveness that made me like her quite a bit. Too bad I have to miss it this year. If a movie is to be made of a girl, it should be here story.
I understand how you feel, because pool is always with us. It has to be in our head too, or we won't get there....a few mental mistakes means 5-10 years of stall. But not many people can appreciate that aspect. You will have to be locked up beating your head against the wall waiting to get out, to appreciate the few games you can play in your head, just to get by. It is that powerful, at least for me. I will never get there, but I've already gotten so much out of it.
Maybe one day another movie of the magnitude this game deserves...or more like...the players deserve will be made.
Industry supports industry? If Olhausen is having a rough time does Brunswick toss them an order?
Who watches chess tournaments?
Dave Nelson
Who watches chess tournaments?
Dave Nelson