Installing phenolic break one piece ferrule and tip???

I've tried just about everything I can think of on these tips. I've done what Manwon suggests, using a 1 piece tip/ferrule/tenon, I've done it like he suggests, I've threaded it into the shaft, I've done 5/16 and 3/8, I've done wood tenon into 1pc tip ferrule, I've done threaded metal rod into shaft and ferrule/tip (what a weird sound). I would suggest trying a bunch of different methods and seeing what works best for you. I know a lot of people (and I've tried it too) that keep the ferrule on the shaft and drill a 5/16 hole half way down and use a tip/tenon and epoxy it in place. You basically do what Manwon said only do about a 3/8 high tip with a 5/16 tenon about half an inch long. One of the best hitting tips I did was like this. The added contact area makes it less like to pop off. Try different things and see what works best for your ability and tastes. It never hurts to give your customers options or know how to do it if THEY want it a certain way.


(I have a quick sidebar)

We have a guy locally who claims he had the one piece phenolic tip/ferrule before MG but he didn't get it patented first. He also claims the Tip Pik, Pocket Chalkers, Lightning Bolt JB design and many others were all stolen from him. Oh I also forgot one, everyone out there who likes the J&J Jump Breaks, you can thank him for that design as well (apparently). Everytime I see him I have to hear about another design stolen from him.
 

We have a guy locally who claims he had the one piece phenolic tip/ferrule before MG but he didn't get it patented first. He also claims the Tip Pik, Pocket Chalkers, Lightning Bolt JB design and many others were all stolen from him. Oh I also forgot one, everyone out there who likes the J&J Jump Breaks, you can thank him for that design as well (apparently). Everytime I see him I have to hear about another design stolen from him.
Eddie Prewitt's Eddie's 747 jumper supposedly had a 14 MM one-piece tip/ferrule. That was out eons ago. Way before sledgehammer.
 
Thanks for all the input. It is amazing for someone like myself to post up a thread with this question and get a lot of insight back that has taken many man hours to figure out. I really appreciate the discussion.
Thanks,
Pat J
 
Varney Cues said:
Correct...no glue relief hole needed. I've only done a 1000 plus or so...I know a little something.
I don't like making the tenon out of the phenolic and putting it into a hole in the shaft. I know others have stated thats how they do it & thats fine...whatever works for you...but lets think about that for a moment. The female part with the bored hole that the tenon goes into is the thinnest section...and thus makes it the weakest section too. So...if I have to have a thin bored out section, would I rather have that area made from wood which will crack very easily or would it be better to have that area made of the ultra strong phenolic? No brainer for me. I'd rather have the tenon made of wood and fitted into the phenolic. This is the strongest set up possible. Thats why I'm comfortable enough to give a lifetime warranty on my j/b tips & ferrules. Also I remember a while back that Mr. Reyes did some extensive testing that showed when a ferrule tenon was inserted into a shaft hole that it acted like a lever and actually induced cracking of the shaft. Not trying to start any arguments...there are a 1000 ways to butter an elephant...just sharing my thoughts as to why I do mine as I do. Everyone have a great weekend!:)
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Kevin, have you ever tried the method I have outlined, or are you just going off what others have to say? If you have tried it, what problems did you have?

I know others have stated thats how they do it & thats fine...whatever works for you...but lets think about that for a moment. The female part with the bored hole that the tenon goes into is the thinnest section...and thus makes it the weakest section too. So...if I have to have a thin bored out section, would I rather have that area made from wood which will crack very easily or would it be better to have that area made of the ultra strong phenolic?

Kevin if this were true then the Predator BK Break shaft would not work, first because it uses no tenon at all only a short tail off the ferrule, and the fact that the shaft is hollow between 3 and 4 inches down.

How many Ferrules have you had to replace Kevin since you have started putting them on in the manner you do, because they cracked? Please don't say you have never had to replace any, any cue repairmen knows they crack.

I have never had a failure of a shaft or a ferrule in more than two years, and with a large number installed in the manner I am speaking of.

No brainer for me. I'd rather have the tenon made of wood and fitted into the phenolic. This is the strongest set up possible.

Are you saying that Wood is Stronger and more flexible than Phenolic?

Also I remember a while back that Mr. Reyes did some extensive testing that showed when a ferrule tenon was inserted into a shaft hole that it acted like a lever and actually induced cracking of the shaft.

I do not know exactly what or how he was doing it, however, I would also say that the number I have installed in this manner is also extensive testing, and I have not seen a single problem as mentioned above. Oh and by the way Kevin, I not only give a lifetime Guaranty on the ferrule, but I also include any damage to the shaft resulting from the installation, however, again I have not had to replace anything to date:). Kevin do you also offer a warranty for the shaft if the ferrule breaking causes damage, or is it just limited to the ferrule. I have repaired many breaking ferrules done in the manner you are speaking of do to cracks, I have also seen them fail and splinter the shaft. When phenolic ferrules that are hollow on a wood tenon fail they split along their sides, if the person allows the ferrule to split it's length it acts like a wedge and it will split the ferrule seat along the cracked area.

Not trying to start any arguments...there are a 1000 ways to butter an elephant...just sharing my thoughts as to why I do mine as I do. Everyone have a great weekend!:)[/QUOTE]

Kevin this is the only part of this discussion we agree on completely.

You also have a great Weekend Kevin!!!!!:)
 
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JoeyInCali said:
I think if it's a ONE-PIECE ferrule/tip, it still infringes on his patent.
http://www.poolndarts.com/p-7597-Phenolic-Ferrule-Tip-Combo/
So Mueller's sells em separately.

The METHOD of installation has no bearing on the design itself.
You could bore it and theard it 3/18 16 as well but it'd still be a one-piece tip/ferrule.
Click to expand...

Joey, the assemble that is in the Mueller ad you posted is exactly like what Mike uses. Mike installs his on a wooden shaft tenon like a normal ferrule. However, by using a tail off the back 1 inch phenolic ferrule which acts like a tenon, is the difference in design I was speaking of, not the method of installation.

I also agree that the installation method would have no bearing alone.
 
manwon said:
Joey, the assemble that is in the Mueller ad you posted is exactly like what Mike uses. Mike installs his on a wooden shaft tenon like a normal ferrule. However, by using a tail off the back 1 inch phenolic ferrule which acts like a tenon, is the difference in design I was speaking of, not the method of installation.

I also agree that the installation method would have no bearing alone.
Click to expand...

That would still be a one-piece tip and ferrule.
SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION

In accordance with the preferred embodiments of the invention, there is provided a pool cue device or jump/break cue for use with the games of billiards, pool and the like, having a conventional shaft and having a modified and improved strikingend region. The striking end region of the pool cue comprises a tipless end (i.e. not having a standard tip) or a non-compressible ferrule that is the tip in that it strikes a cue ball. In other words, the ferrule-tip itself serves the same function asa conventional tip. The ferrule-tip is a rounded tip for striking purposes. Unlike prior art cues, the ferrule-tip is not separate from the tip--it is the tip. Unlike conventional tips, the ferrule-tip does not suffer as much stress and thus, in mostcases, will never need to be repaired, and in many cases never need to be replaced. The ferrule-tip is non-compressible, and transfers its energy to a cue ball upon striking the cue ball.
http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/7452282.html
 
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Varney Cues said:
I use a wood tenon on all my 314's too. I put 1" into the hole and use the rest for ferrule installation. Never had one crack either. I really just don't like the idea of making the tenon from the ferrule material...besides like I mentioned, I like my tenon set 1" deep minimum. I'm with you though Dave...those who haven't tried a 314 with a real ferrule...have no idea the treat they are missing. Makes for one incredible hit & a very lively shaft. I have many players who hate 314's. When they hit with my shaft they are shocked to find out its a 314 with Juma & Sniper. Gone is the funny hollowish Pred hit. :)
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I use a wood tenon on all my 314's too. I put 1" into the hole and use the rest for ferrule installation.

Kevin in my mind this would defeat the purpose of buying a 314 shaft in the first place, because all your doing is reloading up the wieght they have removed to make the shaft low deflection.

Do you tell your customers what you are doing? I know mine would not like having a Predator shaft modified in that manner.;)
 
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JoeyInCali said:
That would still be a one-piece tip and ferrule.
SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION

In accordance with the preferred embodiments of the invention, there is provided a pool cue device or jump/break cue for use with the games of billiards, pool and the like, having a conventional shaft and having a modified and improved strikingend region. The striking end region of the pool cue comprises a tipless end (i.e. not having a standard tip) or a non-compressible ferrule that is the tip in that it strikes a cue ball. In other words, the ferrule-tip itself serves the same function asa conventional tip. The ferrule-tip is a rounded tip for striking purposes. Unlike prior art cues, the ferrule-tip is not separate from the tip--it is the tip. Unlike conventional tips, the ferrule-tip does not suffer as much stress and thus, in mostcases, will never need to be repaired, and in many cases never need to be replaced. The ferrule-tip is non-compressible, and transfers its energy to a cue ball upon striking the cue ball.
http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/7452282.html
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Thanks Joey, however, you missed part of what summorises the design in the patent.

Shaft 14 comprises striking end region 15, having a ferrule-tip 12 (i.e., a ferrule that is the tip), being a combined ferrule and tip with a rounded resilient hemispherical crown or end 40 for striking purposes. With respect to the presentinvention, a conventional tip made of wood, rubber or any other material is omitted. Cylindrical surface 12a of ferrule-tip 12 extends upwardly to form rounded end 40 (i.e. a striking tip). In other words, unlike a conventional cue stick, ferrule-tip12 is the tip for striking purposes in the present invention. Ferrule-tip 12, which includes rounded striking tip 40, is a single piece with a rounded tip 40. Ferrule-tip 12, having a threaded screw 20 discussed below, has a threaded bore to be screwedonto screw 20, as also discussed below. Ferrule tip 12 is a cylindrical member comprising a phenolic ferrule combination, such as a C-grade phenolic. Of course ferrule-tip 12 can alternatively comprise any other resilient material, which can be aplastic such as polyethylene, polypropylene, polycarbonate, acrylic, DELRIN.RTM., acetal, TEFLON.RTM., nylon, phenolic, such as C-grade phenolic, ABS, vinyl, PVC, VIVAK.RTM., a hard, rubber, or leather, all of which are conventional in the art. The onlytime leather would work is if it were very thin and covers a hard ferrule so that the energy being transferred is from the ferrule underneath the leather. Ferrule-tip 12 comprises a cylindrical outer surface 12a having a longitudinal centerline being inalignment with the longitudinal centerline of shaft 14, thereby causing outer surface 14a and outer surface 12a to be aligned. Screw 20 is preferably 1/2 inch long with 5/16-18 threads, and the bore of ferrule tip 12 has mating threads. Ferrule-tip 12can be permanently affixed to shaft 14 without a threaded screw as well, such as by securing ferrule-tip 12 to a tenon extending upwardly from shaft 12 in the same manner as threaded screw 20 and stabilizing ferrule-tip 12 thereon by any mannerconventional in the art, such as by glue. Such a method of permanently securing a ferrule to the shaft is known in the art and so a more detailed description thereof is herewith omitted for the sake of brevity.

Check Figure 2 in the drawings included with the patents for the above.

The design I outined is different Joey.
 
manwon said:
I use a wood tenon on all my 314's too. I put 1" into the hole and use the rest for ferrule installation.

Kevin in my mind this would defeat the purpose of buying a 314 shaft in the first place, because all your doing is reloading up the wieght they have removed to make the shaft low deflection.

Do you tell your customers what you are doing? I know mine would like having a Predator shaft modified in that manner.;)
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The weight I add is insignificant...1" of a 5/16 fluted tenon weighs nothing.
And yes...I tell them its a Varney modified 314. In fact after they try it they send more to be done & order it that way from then on. Ask AZ'er Poolhustler. He's an A speed player from LA...he uses one of my modified 314's. He also has another cue I'm building him...he first request was for my ferrule on the 314. Its really that good.
As for the j/b ferrule discussion Manwon, I'll be honest...I have not tried your way so its best I don't comment on that installation method. I was just sharing how I viewed it in my mind. I will try that way on one of my shop cues...I'm always open to learn something, as most all of us are. As for ferrules cracking...yes in the early years I has some crack as I tried many different materials. Since going with the canvas-resin & the Ivorine 4, I have truthfully had absolutely zero issues. Those 2 materials are pretty much bulletproof in a j/b tip/ferrule application.
 
Varney Cues said:
The weight I add is insignificant...1" of a 5/16 fluted tenon weighs nothing.
And yes...I tell them its a Varney modified 314. In fact after they try it they send more to be done & order it that way from then on. Ask AZ'er Poolhustler. He's an A speed player from LA...he uses one of my modified 314's. He also has another cue I'm building him...he first request was for my ferrule on the 314. Its really that good.
As for the j/b ferrule discussion Manwon, I'll be honest...I have not tried your way so its best I don't comment on that installation method. I was just sharing how I viewed it in my mind. I will try that way on one of my shop cues...I'm always open to learn something, as most all of us are. As for ferrules cracking...yes in the early years I has some crack as I tried many different materials. Since going with the canvas-resin & the Ivorine 4, I have truthfully had absolutely zero issues. Those 2 materials are pretty much bulletproof in a j/b tip/ferrule application.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your Response Kevin, I also agree that until you have tried something, it is hard to discount it. I also use the Canvas-Resin, but I have never tried the Ivorine, I will have to give that a try.

Please give me a little credit Kevin, l am not going to post something that I have not tried extensively and that works very well. I would not want anyone to cause damage to some ones shaft, I am only trying to share some information that may be helpful to others. I have no stake in this for any other reason.

Take Care Kevin
 
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