instructors comments on this help for vision center impared students
- Thread starter bbb
- Start date
see if this helps
by describing the process in reverse
get down on a straight in shot
now stand up keep the distance between your grip hand and bridge hand
maintain the angle of the stick to your body
now bring your right hand down to your right hip (for me right handed)
raise your bridge hand
until the cue is up straight enough to see the shot line thru the "2 " cues
that is the starting position
another way of saying it
is instead of the cue going from left to right as you go down on the shot
once i have the cue and my head on the line of the shot i am coming straight down
on the shot line
i have noticed that this also has the cue stick consistently touching a part of my chest but not restricting my arm movement
this extra tactile feedback is helping me also
i think snooker players have their cue touch their chest too
is this true???
since you dont need answers
i would appreciate you not ask questions about bob jewett or dr dave in this thread
thanks
and no offence intended
since you dont need answers
i would appreciate you not ask questions about bob jewett or dr dave in this thread
thanks
and no offence intended
Ok, no problem. I will not post anymore.
But I got no answers to my questions. And what I said is true. Just because a respected member posts a video on youtube, doesn't mean everyone should agree with what is presented in this video. The video doesn't prove anything about the "vision center" stuff. Because the description and the execution in this video are totally different.
i respect your opinion
If the tip ends up offline, then is almost always due to some flaw in how the cuestick is delivered. Just because "line of sight", or "shot line" is something you like better, doesn't make "vision center" (which I happen to agree with) an incorrect term. You semantics nazis need to back off. There's room for everyone to determine their own wording, as long as it means what it's supposed to mean correctly...which vision center does. Where's the professionalism Ms. Instructor in badmouthing another respected instructor's terminology, especially when it violates no definition requirements?
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Thanks for bringing this to light.
I don't appreciate people trying to take credit for things that already exist just because they put a different label on it. Not cool at all. I will always speak out against such things.
Fran,
I chose the phrase "vision center" because other phrases like "line of sight" and "dominant eye" are really not appropriate for what "vision center" implies. Google "line of sight" and check out the definitions in Webster and Wikipedia. That phrase is not very appropriate. I'm like you in that I don't like it when people use non-standard terminology, or when they use phrases inappropriately. But when there is no phrase or term that adequately describes a concept, I think it is appropriate to create a new phrase. And if that phrase becomes accepted and used by others, it can become a standard phrase. I think "vision center" is moving in that direction. For those interested, the concept is described, illustrated, and demonstrated in detail on the vision center resource page.
Regards,
Dave
The answers to these questions are addressed in detail on the vision center resource page. Specifically, here's a relevant quote from the page:
In the first video above, why does the shooter not follow through straight?
Bob (the shooter) has a slight swoop in his stroke, so he does not follow through perfectly straight. This is something he learned to do over many, many years as a result of his vision-center alignment be slightly off. It causes him to align slightly off center at address and aim slightly off line. By coming through the shot with a slight swoop, he corrects for both. He does not do any of this consciously. It is something he learned to do subconsciously through years and years of reinforcing practice. Obviously, we wouldn't recommend this approach, and it does not change the important messages of the video. But for Bob to change this now would be extremely difficult. He has played at a very high level for many, many years, and he does all of this naturally. He was actually a collegiate national champion in the past, using these technique "flaws." Honestly, this bothered me while we were filming this segment, and we discussed it at length, but we thought the messages of the video are still clear and people can still utilize the vision-center-checking approach to help their individual games.
Regards,
Dave
Since you asked, I will give my answer. Vision center, to me, means how the player orients the cuestick, in relation to their sight, their face, and their head, when they step into, and stand down into their stance. There are many ways to hold your head, and still "see" a straight line. This may or may not be oriented under one's dominant eye, and may or may not be perceived by others as on what they (the observer) think is the 'correct' shot line. Many shots are made with nontraditional kinds of swings (Bob Jewett's swoop in his stroke is a perfect, albeit very minor, example). People learn to make small corrections, sometimes without even knowing it, that enable them to pocket balls well. I want to observe someone's perceived vision center, and confirm whether or not they can deliver the cuestick into the shotline that their brain and eyes perceive. The less I need to screw with someone's perception the better...other than teaching them how to adjust when they are missing.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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I disagree with you 100%, Dave. What you created was your own methodology for finding the line of sight. There's nothing wrong with creating your own methodology or even creating a video to explain how your methodology works. But call it like it is and don't make it grander than it really is.
Hello everyone, hey bbb
some good responses here (for me)- i like what Fran and Scott wrote. You cannot act here "in one specific" way. it s too complicated and many things could have influence on the outcome.
When i see or identify, that the student has a problem with finding the striking line /line of sight- then it s time to FIRST find out, where he s seeing the "straight line" ....WITHOUT A CUE.
For this i still use something a worldclass snooker player showed me in the 80 s when i was in London. Nowadays they call it the "sight right" method- and they make a bunch of money with it...lol-- you can create helping aids yourself for a few bucks.
Laser technology also helps- but this then gets bit more expensive then- know some coaches who also use laser stuff to work on alignment stuff. Imo very helpful.
Ok- first i want to know how the student has his head (in which position) when he s seeing a straight line. This happens on a pool (or snooker) table. Then i know usually, where the EYES have to be, so that the student sees the *straight line*.
After that he will get his cue- and has to try to get again on this straight line into his stance--- to see if eyes and cue are synchron on the line of sight/striking line.
sounds much easier than it is-- a habit burned in over years is tough to *let go* again. Also because most of the time the player has burned in also *corrections* to get a better outcome or result-- without knowing. He s doin it unconcsiously.
Just a short description- as Fran and Scott said- there is not "one rule" to attack such problems. To many factors have influence - or could be the reason.
An expirienced coach, with good observation skills is here in my humble opinion a must.
And what i can asure you--- this can be a pain in the ass most of the time, to get there, where you want to be Had this a few times- and just 2 out of 5 persons made it finally-- the others just gave up, because they immediatley saw, how much work it costs- and how uncomfortable the practice sessions on this topic really are.
Even if i told everyone, "this will be brutal maybe..."...almost everyone says first: no problem i want that ...and after a few sessions they give up.
no reason to talk around the cake around....it needs discipiine, dedication and hard work to fix such problems. it s not the nicest problem you can have....and to solve it
kind regards, and a smooth stroke to everyone.
some good responses here (for me)- i like what Fran and Scott wrote. You cannot act here "in one specific" way. it s too complicated and many things could have influence on the outcome.
When i see or identify, that the student has a problem with finding the striking line /line of sight- then it s time to FIRST find out, where he s seeing the "straight line" ....WITHOUT A CUE.
For this i still use something a worldclass snooker player showed me in the 80 s when i was in London. Nowadays they call it the "sight right" method- and they make a bunch of money with it...lol-- you can create helping aids yourself for a few bucks.
Laser technology also helps- but this then gets bit more expensive then- know some coaches who also use laser stuff to work on alignment stuff. Imo very helpful.
Ok- first i want to know how the student has his head (in which position) when he s seeing a straight line. This happens on a pool (or snooker) table. Then i know usually, where the EYES have to be, so that the student sees the *straight line*.
After that he will get his cue- and has to try to get again on this straight line into his stance--- to see if eyes and cue are synchron on the line of sight/striking line.
sounds much easier than it is-- a habit burned in over years is tough to *let go* again. Also because most of the time the player has burned in also *corrections* to get a better outcome or result-- without knowing. He s doin it unconcsiously.
Just a short description- as Fran and Scott said- there is not "one rule" to attack such problems. To many factors have influence - or could be the reason.
An expirienced coach, with good observation skills is here in my humble opinion a must.
And what i can asure you--- this can be a pain in the ass most of the time, to get there, where you want to be
Had this a few times- and just 2 out of 5 persons made it finally-- the others just gave up, because they immediatley saw, how much work it costs- and how uncomfortable the practice sessions on this topic really are. Even if i told everyone, "this will be brutal maybe..."...almost everyone says first: no problem i want that
...and after a few sessions they give up. no reason to talk around the cake around....it needs discipiine, dedication and hard work to fix such problems. it s not the nicest problem you can have....and to solve it
kind regards, and a smooth stroke to everyone.
Is the cue only in contact with the chest once down?
It's true snooker players use the chest as a point of contact with the cue. I find the chest helps with horizontal movement of the cue, and the chin helps with vertical movement of the cue. The chest contact is also an excellent alignment tool that a lot of players, top players, use. With the way the chest is positioned over the line of aim it's very easy to know when the cue isn't on line just by where the cue contacts the chest.
It is a hindrance to lots of players however. Players get so fixated when learning snooker and having the cue contact the chest that they bring the cue to the chest rather than the chest to the cue. It can also make for a very awkward looking stance as everything just seems to get cooped up. It's vital to give your grip a few inches clearance of the hips by cooking the hips out to the side, otherwise you will notice you start to develop a curve action into the stroke, aided by the chest.
yes pidge
as i get down to address the cue ball my chest falls naturally to the cue stick where previously the cue stick was more to the side
i sometimes in the past when down would have the cue pointing alittle to the left
and then have to adjust
there is plenty room for my grip hand to pass my hips
i do feel more on line now
there still are some kinks to iron out but i think this new approach is helping
as an aside
i am also finding when i line up like i used to with the cue angled to the left before i go down on the shot
having the cue touching my chest has maintained the benefit of being on line and not having the cue be alittle left of center when i thought it was center
from dr dave my vision center issues should be that my head was alittle left of center
the cue to my chest brings the cue alittle to the left so now which indirectly puts my head alittle more to the right
so that may be why i am finding improvement
yours or anyone elses thought are always appreciated
its been 3 weeks since i posted my thread
as an update i am finding my new way to be really helping me
looking thru the "2 " cues has kept me on the vision center position
in a separate thread on another subject some one linked a nic barrow video on alignment
what i found is my method forces me into many of the positions nic advocates
ie keep my head on the line all the way down
and my bridge hand and cue on the line early while going down
my sense of connection to the cue and shot line is much stronger now
i can see straight(er) now
:smile:
as an update i am finding my new way to be really helping me
looking thru the "2 " cues has kept me on the vision center position
in a separate thread on another subject some one linked a nic barrow video on alignment
what i found is my method forces me into many of the positions nic advocates
ie keep my head on the line all the way down
and my bridge hand and cue on the line early while going down
my sense of connection to the cue and shot line is much stronger now
i can see straight(er) now
:smile:
I think everyone has their own routine and method for alignment. Certain terms, methods or explanations may be easy for 1 person but difficult for another.
The body and head is angled when down on the shot. I think this is true for everyone.
For me, I find alignment is easier and more consistent if my body and head are at that same angle when I am standing aiming the shot. The tricky part is I also walk into the shot and go down angled, maintaining the head position. My eyes never shift off the line. If always looks totally straight from standing to walking in to going down.
Took me a little time to find a comfortable routine for walking in and going down angled, but once I did, I became much more consistent with my alignment and pocketing.
Update: just noticed this thread is in the ask the instructors section. I am a low level amateur, so take what I wrote with a grain of salt.
The body and head is angled when down on the shot. I think this is true for everyone.
For me, I find alignment is easier and more consistent if my body and head are at that same angle when I am standing aiming the shot. The tricky part is I also walk into the shot and go down angled, maintaining the head position. My eyes never shift off the line. If always looks totally straight from standing to walking in to going down.
Took me a little time to find a comfortable routine for walking in and going down angled, but once I did, I became much more consistent with my alignment and pocketing.
Update: just noticed this thread is in the ask the instructors section. I am a low level amateur, so take what I wrote with a grain of salt.
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Very interesting stuff posted in this thread. I enjoy reading it even though it does not apply to, or work for me. I do not have any depth perception or 3D vision.
A police combat firearms instructor tried to explain how to "aim for the middle" of two objects in your vision during a gunfight? I politely declined, and told him that I'll keep shooting at the one I can see.
About a year later during an extensive eye exam the Dr. informed me that I had no depth perception.
Anyway, it made me wonder if anyone else on this forum plays pool or billiards without depth perception? I'm sure I can't be the only one?
Here is a test http://www.mediacollege.com/3d/depth-perception/test.html
Shoot straight, aim for the middle !!
A police combat firearms instructor tried to explain how to "aim for the middle" of two objects in your vision during a gunfight? I politely declined, and told him that I'll keep shooting at the one I can see.
About a year later during an extensive eye exam the Dr. informed me that I had no depth perception.
Anyway, it made me wonder if anyone else on this forum plays pool or billiards without depth perception? I'm sure I can't be the only one?
Here is a test http://www.mediacollege.com/3d/depth-perception/test.html
Shoot straight, aim for the middle !!