INSTRUCTORS: What have you learned?

cdavis9771 said:
I'll take advice from someone like him that has actually been there and done that. I'm talking about the ones who take the bca certification and pooof there a teacher.
Let's take a specific example.

I'll bet that many very good players believe that you can "gain an angle" by using inside english. Possibly some pros believe this too. But it turns out not to be true unless the cueball and object ball are very close to each other, as within and inch or so.

That's a bit of knowledge that I think is useful. You might just as well use centerball and cheat the pocket explicitly - the inside english method is just a fancy way of doing the same thing, but will typically result in less actual cueball travel. Does knowing this make those of us that are aware of it great players. In my case no, but it is a fact that possibly some great players aren't aware of.

Here's a shot by Corey Deuel that was recently posted on the RSB forum by Rich Koerner. Actually there's two great shots but the one on the 4-ball is the one I'm refering to. Any number of people can describe how to do it, and that is good and useful, but how many can?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_plsd-1TNNw&NR

Jim
 
cdavis9771 said:
I understand now are people who can and people who do. Got it. By the way what is spf?


SPF are just the initials of SET-PAUSE-FINSH which is a teaching/playing tool....SPF=randyg
 
Cornerman said:
one thing I've learned from pros as opposed to learning from instructors is the time they spend on each shot, and the committment they make to the execution. I've also learned a lot of easier pattern play and decision making. Now, do instructor's teach this? Absolutely! But, they themselves would have to learn it from top flight players (who could be themselves) who are accomplishing things in action or tournaments.

Fred

NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. You get it Fred!
Any others?

I just want to know if and what the instructors may have learned while teaching the pros.

And Hu, I would be insincere if I said I wasn't hoping to learn a few unique professional perspectives to further my game.

And for the instructors: I believe in them more than ever.

And for the books: There is always another nugget being uncovered every day and with its own shadow box.

And for the video: Just look at all of the new stuff out there including my old bud, Joe Viallapondo. Always something new and beneficial to be had.

And don't forget the Internet: www.youtube.com -WOW

And let's not forget tournaments, gambling matches, hard personal practice,non-gambling matches, training, practice and just fun playing.
Thanks,
JoeyA
 
unnamed_perp said:
... Another bit of advice is never take advice from someone who can't beat you. ...
As others have pointed out, this is really bad advice. In 1998 I got lessons from someone who had little chance to beat me, but I treasure those lessons. That instructor was Jimmy Caras, who happened to be 88 at the time. Beyond that, there are some very top players who have really screwy notions about the game, like "twist your right foot to the right when drawing the ball." And I think there are few top players who have the patience to work on beginner or intermediate stroke faults.

As for the OP's question, an article about instruction from the perspective of both a student and an instructor is at http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-09.pdf
 
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Just because someone knows something does not mean than can teach it to others. Different people learn differently. Some have to be shown, some have to be told, and some have to be told but in a different way.

IMO one of the things that makes teaching hard is you need to be able to explain the same thing different ways and find out which version will get the student to REALLY understand what you are showing them.

I try to always tell people that if they dont understand something please tell me, its not that they cant understand it I just need to explain it in a different manner.

Many top players cant explain what they are doing one way, let alone more than one :) That doesnt say anything good or bad about them, just means that havent decided to take the time to try to really learn how to teach.
 
that is why I am keeping up with the thread

JoeyA said:
Hu, I would be insincere if I said I wasn't hoping to learn a few unique professional perspectives to further my game.

Joey,

That is of course why I am keeping up with the thread myself, hoping to improve my game a bit. Of course where I am at in the curve it is much easier to improve mine noticeably! Unfortunately I am getting less and less practice time instead of more.

Hu
 
Post deleted...other posters have already said it.
Steve
 
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????????

How come most poolteachers can't make it on tour an on their best day might be considered shortstops by the knowing? I don't get it. I believe say once you get to say B level, pool is more than 50% mental. Although I believe you can learn something from the weakest of opponents. Why are poolteachers held in highest esteem an seemingly untouchable? Sharpen your spears I can dish out or take it either one.
Pinocchio
 
No need for spears

No need for spears. The answer seems pretty simple. The attributes needed to be a winner are different than those needed to be a top instructor. The rarest of the rare are those that can be both at the same time. When I raced, I helped everybody I could off the track. Likewise, playing pool, I help anyone I can. However, when the green flag dropped or the rack was broken, I had to be teacher or competitor. I wasn't worth a damn competing if I was trying to do both. No way to maintain the competitive mindset, for me anyway.

Hu


Pinocchio said:
How come most poolteachers can't make it on tour an on their best day might be considered shortstops by the knowing? I don't get it. I believe say once you get to say B level, pool is more than 50% mental. Although I believe you can learn something from the weakest of opponents. Why are poolteachers held in highest esteem an seemingly untouchable? Sharpen your spears I can dish out or take it either one.
Pinocchio
 
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Shootspears!!!!!!

Good answer! Thats what I meant by the more than 50% mental. I think between high B's an A's it just maintaining a high concentration level at all times, Rep for You!!!!!!!!
Pinocchio
 
Pinocchio said:
How come most poolteachers can't make it on tour an on their best day might be considered shortstops by the knowing? I don't get it. I believe say once you get to say B level, pool is more than 50% mental. Although I believe you can learn something from the weakest of opponents. Why are poolteachers held in highest esteem an seemingly untouchable? Sharpen your spears I can dish out or take it either one.
Pinocchio

Most of the instructors I know put much more effort into being good teachers than into working on their own game. Personally, I probably spend 10 hours either teaching or studying for every hour I actually spend on my own game. If I reversed that, I might end up being a better player, but it would be at the expense of being able to provide quality instruction to others. Most of us made a choice...be a great player...or be a great teacher. Very few can do both. They are two completely separate things.

If you try to chase two rabbits, they will both get away.

Steve
 
As someone new to the teaching field I believe that what separates a teacher and a player is a major difference of perspective.

When a teacher sees someone struggling with the game they are driven to help.
When a player sees the same person, they see a weakness to be exploited in their prey.

Bern
 
Xxxxxxxxxxxx

I get it. Instructors are dedicated professions seeking to help individuals
achieve a higher level in their game through instruction an a different perspective. Thanks!
Pinocchio
 
Pinocchio said:
How come most poolteachers can't make it on tour an on their best day might be considered shortstops by the knowing? I don't get it. I believe say once you get to say B level, pool is more than 50% mental. Although I believe you can learn something from the weakest of opponents. Why are poolteachers held in highest esteem an seemingly untouchable? Sharpen your spears I can dish out or take it either one.
Pinocchio


No spears just fun. The BCA Instructors who work for CUE-TECH put in close to 60 hour work weeks. Not much time or energy for the game....too bad but that's the way we choose.....SPF=randyg
 
Lessons Learned from Instructors...

Over the fifty plus years, I have been playing this game, I have on multiple occassions taken lessons from Master BCA Instructors, PRO's and Hustlers. This is what I have learned from each.

BCA Instructors, including Jerry Brieseth who I spent a week with in dedicated one-on-one lessons: All about mechanics. My takeaway was reinforcement of what I already knew.

PRO's, including Mark Wilson, Jon Kuchero, Jack Madden, others: My takeaway was how to refine and master singular elements of the game, i.e., the break, position, strategy, geometry, systems, etc.

Hustlers, including Harry "Poochy" Sexton (deceased), "Cornbread Red" Burge (deceased), "Three Fingers" John (Deceased), Gary "Bushwhacker" Nolan, Bucky Bell, "Indian Joe" (deceased), "Northside Eddie Spaeth", just to name a few: My takeaway was learning many well kept secrets including: distributing the weight of the cue ball to control deflection, how to read extreme bank angles, how to make seemingly impossible cut shots, the geometry of the chalk cube and where to place it on the rail to read hidden ball shots, and many more techniques and shots that I paid dearly to learn.

There is no way, any player who like myself took their lumps and emptied their wallets in the process just to learn one nugget will publish such info on a public website. My advice is simple: If you desire to learn these things, find a hustler and get up a game. Ask beforehand, if during the course of the game, you see him do something, you would like to better understand, will he share it with you? I remember in the mid seventies when Harry Sexton played in Flint, Michigan and took on all players including pros, I would take a two hour lunch break and go to his pool hall. He would play me eight ball or nine ball for five dollars a game with the understanding that when he did something I wanted to better understand, he would show me how he did it. I have no idea how much I lost to Harry in the two years I lived and worked in Flint, Michigan but I can say for certain that what I learned in the process has paid off many times over since. Anyone who doubts me, may ask Gary
"Bushwhacker" Nolan, for he too learned a lot of his infamous skills from the late great Harry Sexton. I only wish back then I would have played Harry some bank pool. He once banked thirty five consecutive balls without a miss.
Just two balls shy of the late great Eddy "The Knoxville Bear" Taylor's bank record.


Cross-Side-Larry

"Learn from the best, and beat the rest"

PS: It is my understanding that Larry Nevel has made a similar offer as Harry Sexton did with me. FIve dollars a game and a show & tell along the way!
IMO, that is a deal!
 
CrossSideLarry said:
I remember in the mid seventies when Harry Sexton played in Flint, Michigan and took on all players including pros, I would take a two hour lunch break and go to his pool hall. He would play me eight ball or nine ball for five dollars a game with the understanding that when he did something I wanted to better understand, he would show me how he did it. I have no idea how much I lost to Harry in the two years I lived and worked in Flint, Michigan but I can say for certain that what I learned in the process has paid off many times over since. Anyone who doubts me, may ask Gary
"Bushwhacker" Nolan, for he too learned a lot of his infamous skills from the late great Harry Sexton. I only wish back then I would have played Harry some bank pool. He once banked thirty five consecutive balls without a miss.
Just two balls shy of the late great Eddy "The Knoxville Bear" Taylor's bank record.


Cross-Side-Larry


Reminds me of a pool hall owner I knew back in the early seventies. He was affronted when someone wanted straight lessons, he felt like they just wanted him to hand over all he had learned through years of work and paying his dues across the table. He said he would give them all the lessons they wanted at ten a game. :D

He liked kids that were crazy about the game though and would often come over to my table to show "the person I was playing with" one thing and go on about his way. His way of showing me things without making a point of it and I would often use it in the next day or two and look over his way afterwards to see a grin. I sure miss that ratty old pool hall and the various owners and managers.

Hu
 
Pinocchio said:
How come most poolteachers can't make it on tour an on their best day might be considered shortstops by the knowing? I don't get it. I believe say once you get to say B level, pool is more than 50% mental.
Let's look at your scenario, from the other side. Take Mike Massey for example. Mike has one of the finest strokes there is. There is probably not a shot, that he could not make. Now I'm not going to say, Mike is a bad player, I think he is a very good player. But even with so much talent, you'd think he'd have gone to the top of the rankings in 9-Ball. Does that make sense? I think it does, because pool is much more than, shot making.

Tracy
 
pooltchr said:
Most of the instructors I know put much more effort into being good teachers than into working on their own game. Personally, I probably spend 10 hours either teaching or studying for every hour I actually spend on my own game. If I reversed that, I might end up being a better player, but it would be at the expense of being able to provide quality instruction to others. Most of us made a choice...be a great player...or be a great teacher. Very few can do both. They are two completely separate things.

If you try to chase two rabbits, they will both get away.

Steve
If your advice works then you should be a good player.That is if you practice what you preach right?
 
cdavis9771 said:
If your advice works then you should be a good player.That is if you practice what you preach right?
Some of these passive aggressive statements aren't going to win you any friends. I thought Steve's point was pretty clear.

That's my $.02.

Fred
 
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