Integrity and Sportsmanship

[Hutchfish]

<-------climbing on my soapbox for just a minute.......

As I was reading a thread in the tournament section about the "Best of he B's" tourney at City Lights in Tacoma, I had a couple of thoughts going thru my head.

What is up with the "sport" of pocket billiards these days? Doesn't anybody have a true sense of sportsmanship anymore? And where is all the integrity that goes with it? Why is it people can't mean what they say and say what they mean?

Prime example is the City Lights tournament, if they advertised it as a "B" players tourney, what could their justification be for letting in ANY "A" players? Are they that hard up for the money? Isn't that similar to a "bait & switch" tactic that we all loathe so much when it comes to any other kind of business?

Another example that comes to mind is when a pool team enters a tournament and declares their player's rankings on the scoresheet BEFORE the match starts....then when they are faced with a loss near the end of the match, they complain to the tournament director that one of their players is actually ranked LOWER than what they themselves declared him to be and want the director to adjust their handicap spot to reflect the player's lower handicap. What the hell is up with that?????

And I have seen players who were not shooting at the table purposely stand in front of their opponents while they are down on the table taking a shot. And I have seen other players walk right up beside a shooting player then just stand there until he takes the shot. When I was brought up, I was taught that was very poor ettiquitte as well as bad sportsmanship.

Has winning become so important these days that people are employing these tactics because they don't have the basic skills to win it by shooting the balls in like the game is supposed to be played?

And I hear and read about why pool doesn't get the respect and air time that other sports do. Could it be because that things like this are seemingly allowed to happen and take away from the integrity of the game?

Shouldn't the game be played ON THE TABLE and not BESIDE THE TABLE????

<---------climbing off my soapbox now.........

 

[Pushout]

Had to edit this because I screwed it all up. Deleted some of your quote and my reply.

You're listing many of the reasons I won't play on league teams, though I've been asked to several times in the last 9 years, or so. I've seen tons of people like the ones you described, doing exactly those same things. As for places that allow this kind of nonsense to go on, I stop going there. I mostly knock 'em around at home at the present time. Hoping after I graduate and get a decent job, I'll be able to start playing in tournaments and maybe even a few "sporting events"

 

[TheBook]

The problem with pool is that it is based on hustling. There are many stories about some player hustling another. Things are changing a little but for the most part pool players are dogs. That is why you always see those pictures of Dogs Playing Pool.

 

[JoeW]

I think that the sport becomes what we make it. There are different levels of play. Like Pushout, I seldom play in bars or leagues anymore. Alcohol and playing any sport seems to bring out the worst in people.

Bar room pool is a past time and bar leagues are a way for bars to generate income. Some of these people consider themselves players and in fact become players. As they mature into the sport they leave the bar scene if their primary intent is playing pool. Pool is not really a team sport - though the bars make it appear to be, there is great deal of manuvering to get to some social aspect of a game. Through these manipulations a sport becomes a drinking event

However, I continue to play in good ethical halls that cater to players and I do talk up the sport with friends and acquaintences.

In the halls there are some problems with people who define themselves by their ability to hustle others and need pool winnings as some sort of self definition. There are dramma kings and queens anywhere. Similar people are present in Golf and Tennis. In the hall tournaments and some hall leagues is where you will find the best players when best is defined from any of several perspectives.

Once the player arrives at the point that pool is their sport of sports I think that they are most often found in Hall tournaments. If they are good to excellent they get to play in the major league tournaments.

For these reasons it is important to keep the major leagues clean and ethical, the rest is sand lot. Pool is a sport, it is not defined by hustling, except by those few who are looking for some sort of self definition. Everyone has some sort of "hustle" in life. Pool is a very poor one as so few people make a living at it. This is true for even the legendary players. I tend to feel sorry for people who consider themselves hustlers at pool. There are so many better ways to make money, why on earth would anyone use pool to make money from other working stiffs -- how sad.

I think that if you look at the good up and coming pro players you do not see hustlers. Sure they gamble now and again but they are primarily players who are looking for high levels of competition. That is what pool is about and that is the direction the sport is taking. We are similar to Tennis where offense and defense are both important.

 

[Snapshot9]

Unfornately

all pool players do not have good manners, on the table or off, and you run into the ones that just don't have good manners. Usually, players learn the proper ettiquite as they go along, but some never do unless they get a wake up call from someone else.

Many rooms will make adjustments to tournaments in order not to have what they perceive as a failed event. Shooters was having their annual 'Amateurs Tournament' this past weekend, supposedly for 5's and below, but like every other year, I noticed several 6's and some low 7's playing in the tournament. It is usually won by a strong 6 every year. It was a 64 player tourney.

What about this? I used to play in a 'Crazy Board' tournament (12 players, round robin) 8 ball tournament and BCA averages are used, from your current league average, or recent past averages. We would have 6 qualifiers with the top 2 progressing to the Final. I usually would win one of the qualifiers, and when it came time to play the Final, the room owner would up my average by 2 points, just arbitrarily. Well, it affected my overall score by 4.4 points total which was usually enough to keep me from winning the Final. After about 3-4 times of him doing this, I just quit playing in the qualifiers at all.

Players can be sweating a match, and unconsciously get in the line of sight of the opposing player. Some people just develop this habit without actually being aware of what they are doing. The player should just ask them to get out of their line of sight or sit down while they are shooting.

You can buy'm books and buy'm books, but you still have to teach'm...

 

[Maniac]

Players can be sweating a match, and unconsciously get in the line of sight of the opposing player. Some people just develop this habit without actually being aware of what they are doing. The player should just ask them to get out of their line of sight or sit down while they are shooting.

I have been in the line of sight of my opponent while he/she was shooting, but it is because I am sitting in my chair AWAY from the table and I don't move a muscle until the opponent is up from the shot. I think the OP is refering to the idiots who stand in your line of sight right NEXT TO the table . I have had this happen to me before and I didn't like it one bit. I have decided that the next time this happens, I am going to ask the person to "please remove himself/herself to another place, preferably into a chair, and please allow me the same consideration that I give you".

JoeW said it right in another post that bar leagues are just another way for the bar owner to generate more income. I have witnessed this first-hand with the bar/owner from which I shoot APA league out of. I would think, hope anyway, that a venue set up for the seriuos pool players would have a clientele with better sportsmanship/etiquitte.

I want to find me a place within 20-30 miles of home to shoot out of that caters more to the serious players. Not that I'm all that serious a player, just that I want to shoot against players, not drinkers.
Disclaimer: I have nothing against drinkers. Hell, I throw back my share of Bourbon. It's just that when I shoot pool, I want to get involved with someone there with the purpose of giving me his best game, not some beer/liquor-laced, half-a$$ed attempt at the game. (I know, I know, some of y'all shoot better drunk . I've heard it all before .)

IMO, most bar leagues just can't be taken to seriously. At least in my own experiences.

Maniac

 

[TheBook]

I tend to feel sorry for people who consider themselves hustlers at pool. There are so many better ways to make money, why on earth would anyone use pool to make money from other working stiffs -- how sad.

.

From the movie "Flim Flam Man" He said the only reason you can cheat someone is because they think they are cheating you. You cannot cheat a honest man. That is why the working man loses their money. They think they see a easy way to make a fast buck and forget how hard it was to make it.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I do have to say, I think it's funny when people complain about fields not being properly protected. "Best of the B's" inherently lacks integrity. You have instituted an authority that is going to determine who can and who cannot play based on their ability to win the tournament. Since SOMEONE will inevitably be favored to win no matter how you shave the field, aren't you simply making it easier for someone who would not normally win had the tournament been open to all players?

Personally, I don't like exclusion of any sort but I think it's just obnoxious when amateur players are excluded from fields. In New York City, the amateur tour makes it almost impossible for an A level player to have any fun. We're excluded from most events, pay larger entry-fees when we are allowed and since there are so many events that exclude A-players, turn-out for our events is frequently low. All the while, we're giving up weight in all of our matches.

Regions that are known for allowing any and all players entry into events are frequently known for strong play. In the end, everyone benefits.

 

[Williebetmore]

From the movie "Flim Flam Man" He said the only reason you can cheat someone is because they think they are cheating you. You cannot cheat a honest man.

Book-man,
This is a common aphorism used by cheater's to justify their actions. While in some cases it MAY be true; there are MANY cases where it is NOT true.

For example moving balls or scoring beads while the opponent is in the bathroom; not calling fouls on themselves; purposely sharking the opponent. All of these "cheating" strategies may be used on an honest opponent.

There are MANY cons (in and out of pool) that can be used on honest people.

 

[Fatboy]

The problem with pool is that it is based on hustling. There are many stories about some player hustling another. Things are changing a little but for the most part pool players are dogs. That is why you always see those pictures of Dogs Playing Pool.

and in the poker pictures too

 

[Big Perm]

I think the problem in pool is the same issue with have with sports in general and society as a whole......people seem to think it's kewl to cheat or break the law or whatever, as long as you get away with it....and the law protects criminals....

In the past, if someone clearly cheated or tried to run one by you, you had recourse.....you could break their thumbs, their arm, or even take a shot at their knee with your cue....these days, they'll just sue you, and they'll win.......no longer can you "teach" people a lesson....a real lesson they can learn and that will keep them from ever doing that again...

Society is the problem, pool and the other sports just follow....my two cents...

 

[chilli66]

I want to find me a place within 20-30 miles of home to shoot out of that caters more to the serious players. Not that I'm all that serious a player, just that I want to shoot against players, not drinkers.
Disclaimer: I have nothing against drinkers. Hell, I throw back my share of Bourbon. It's just that when I shoot pool, I want to get involved with someone there with the purpose of giving me his best game, not some beer/liquor-laced, half-a$$ed attempt at the game. (I know, I know, some of y'all shoot better drunk . I've heard it all before .)

IMO, most bar leagues just can't be taken to seriously. At least in my own experiences.

Maniac

Maniac, in the 5 weeks I've been playing in the Wednesday 8 ball league at Volcano's I've found most players there to be pretty considerate during games (apart from the odd yell by Donovan!) & have only seen one guy get pissed when he lost. He did apologise soon after though & is a decent guy.

There have been times when I've been caught in my opponents line of sight so I just freeze & wait until he's played his/her shot before I move. I always do my best to keep out of the way but sometimes you just get stuck!

Hope to see you there sometime soon. My leg is slowly getting better so I'm going to have to try their tournament soon. They run one on Sunday nights as well now!

 

[Maniac]

Maniac, in the 5 weeks I've been playing in the Wednesday 8 ball league at Volcano's I've found most players there to be pretty considerate during games (apart from the odd yell by Donovan!) & have only seen one guy get pissed when he lost. He did apologise soon after though & is a decent guy.

Hope to see you there sometime soon. My leg is slowly getting better so I'm going to have to try their tournament soon. They run one on Sunday nights as well now!

Kool,
I want to shoot in your league badly. It's just right now I'm commited to bowling on Wednesday nights for another four weeks. See if you can put a word in for me to a team that may need another player on their Wednesday night roster. I could start showing up there on May 9th. Even if no team needs me, I may come up there from time to time to check out the action. We are probably gonna meet sooner than later.

Maniac

 

[chilli66]

Kool,
I want to shoot in your league badly. It's just right now I'm commited to bowling on Wednesday nights for another four weeks. See if you can put a word in for me to a team that may need another player on their Wednesday night roster. I could start showing up there on May 9th. Even if no team needs me, I may come up there from time to time to check out the action. We are probably gonna meet sooner than later.

Maniac

I'll see what I can come up with, although Donovan might have a better idea about that. After all, he knows everyone there better than I do. I'll mention it to him tomorrow night & see what happens, also talk about the possible AZB get together thingy on May 6th. I'm really hoping that comes off!