Integrity, the missing ingredient .

Brian_Laflamme

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Important Disclaimer
It is not my intention to ridicule, shame, blame, insult, belittle or demean anyone in particular with this thread.


The current controversy surrounding racking in 9 Ball has shown a very disheartening view into the minds of many pool players.

I have been reading up on this subject on the azbilliards forums,looking for a solution,because I am a TD and the current state of affairs makes running a tournament with integrity extremely difficult. A quick fix for now would seem to be magic rack,9 on the spot, racking done by a designated neutral party, inspecting the rack permitted, but players cannot request a re-rack.

What is so troubling is that many people seem to think cheating is acceptable, even admirable.

I will clarify exactly what I mean by cheating.


(A) If, while racking the balls for yourself, you intentionally manipulate the balls to create gaps to gain a competitive advantage breaking, you are cheating. Period.

(B) Studying a rack to spot gaps or any other information that can be used to gain a competitive advantage breaking is legal, even if you racked them yourself, provided you have not violated (A).


Just because many players currently violate (A), does not mean that players are not cheating, instead it just means that there is lots of cheating going on. This, contrary to what many think, is not an admirable characteristic for a sport to have.

Of course, the player who maintains their integrity is going to be at a serious disadvantage when playing someone who does not. This problem forms the basis for the slippery slope we are currently sliding down out of control, gaining speed every second. The end result is that everyone will be forced to cheat as well, if they want to have a chance. In the end, players will try to call it evolution of the game, a necessity or some other drivel, when in fact it is just cheating, plain and simple.

Obviously, the rules need improvement or outright change. Even so, saying don't hate the player, hate the game is in essence removing any requirement that players have any integrity or class.

It is too late in the game for individual players to resist the tide. Although this problem partially originated with players, I think the only ones who can change it are the people who run tournaments, along with the ruling bodies that sanction rules. Unfortunately, both have remained silent, for the most part.

Opinions in support, to the contrary or anywhere in between are welcome, but please think your posts all the way through and be civil.

I am not trying to get feedback on whether we should use magic racks, rack your own, loser racks, 9 ball or 1 ball on the spot, winner breaks/alternate breaks, Europeans vs. American methods, nor looking to hear any criticism about any specific player. There has already been many threads containing all the above and they have accomplished nothing, but to prove what a disorganized mess pool is.

Actually, more than anything, I posted this because I will not turn the other way now that I am fully aware of the magnitude of this problem, as a TD this is my way of shouldering the responsibility to deal with this problem and saying that the buck stops here. I will not have such a divisive issue take away from any future event I am involved in.

Again, I stress that this post is not intended for anyone in particular, despite what some may think. The few players I have spoken with about this issue, I have a great deal of respect for and I do understand that making a living playing pool is no easy task. I have no doubt that everyone would appreciate not having to deal with this issue any longer. I certainly do not care to single out players in any tournament I run, in fact I despise having to do so.
 
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What world do you live in where "harmless" cheating is not taking place everywhere around you? Are there not any free digital downloads in this world? Are politicians honest there? Do the bbusinessmen report every dollar?

Other sports in this world... do they not have referees? Is Lebron calling his own fouls? Are tbere hypocrits in this world making posts about the integrity of others?

Wouldn't it have been easier to just have stated the need for rules and referees to enforce them and left it at that?
 
What world do you live in where "harmless" cheating is not taking place everywhere around you? Are there not any free digital downloads in this world? Are politicians honest there? Do the bbusinessmen report every dollar?

Other sports in this world... do they not have referees? Is Lebron calling his own fouls? Are tbere hypocrits in this world making posts about the integrity of others?

Wouldn't it have been easier to just have stated the need for rules and referees to enforce them and left it at that?

Harmless cheating? I would say that this is anything, but harmless.

I suppose that you are insinuating that I am a hypocrite, though I am unsure of your basis for doing so.

Yes, it would have been easier, much in the same fashion looking the other way and pretending not to see it, which is what got us into this mess to begin with.

I have posted under my true name, please tell us yours.
 
2nd to last Paragraph

Important Disclaimer
It is not my intention to ridicule, shame, blame, insult, belittle or demean anyone in particular with this thread.


The current controversy surrounding racking in 9 Ball has shown a very disheartening view into the minds of many pool players.

I have been reading up on this subject on the azbilliards forums,looking for a solution,because I am a TD and the current state of affairs makes running a tournament with integrity extremely difficult. A quick fix for now would seem to be magic rack,9 on the spot, racking done by a designated neutral party, inspecting the rack permitted, but players cannot request a re-rack.

What is so troubling is that many people seem to think cheating is acceptable, even admirable.

I will clarify exactly what I mean by cheating.


(A) If, while racking the balls for yourself, you intentionally manipulate the balls to create gaps to gain a competitive advantage breaking, you are cheating. Period.

(B) Studying a rack to spot gaps or any other information that can be used to gain a competitive advantage breaking is legal, even if you racked them yourself, provided you have not violated (A).


Just because many players currently violate (A), does not mean that players are not cheating, instead it just means that there is lots of cheating going on. This, contrary to what many think, is not an admirable characteristic for a sport to have.

Of course, the player who maintains their integrity is going to be at a serious disadvantage when playing someone who does not. This problem forms the basis for the slippery slope we are currently sliding down out of control, gaining speed every second. The end result is that everyone will be forced to cheat as well, if they want to have a chance. In the end, players will try to call it evolution of the game, a necessity or some other drivel, when in fact it is just cheating, plain and simple.

Obviously, the rules need improvement or outright change. Even so, saying don't hate the player, hate the game is in essence removing any requirement that players have any integrity or class. L
It is too late in the game for individual players to resist the tide. Although this problem partially originated with players, I think the only ones who can change it are the people who run tournaments, along with the ruling bodies that sanction rules. Unfortunately, both have remained silent, for the most part.

Opinions in support, to the contrary or anywhere in between are welcome, but please think your posts all the way through and be civil.

I am not trying to get feedback on whether we should use magic racks, rack your own, loser racks, 9 ball or 1 ball on the spot, winner breaks/alternate breaks, Europeans vs. American methods, nor looking to hear any criticism about any specific player. There has already been many threads containing all the above and they have accomplished nothing, but to prove what a disorganized mess pool is.

Actually, more than anything, I posted this because I will not turn the other way now that I am fully aware of the magnitude of this problem, as a TD this is my way of shouldering the responsibility to deal with this problem and saying that the buck stops here. I will not have such a divisive issue take away from any future event I am involved in.

Again, I stress that this post is not intended for anyone in particular, despite what some may think. The few players I have spoken with about this issue, I have a great deal of respect for and I do understand that making a living playing pool is no easy task. I have no doubt that everyone would appreciate not having to deal with this issue any longer. I certainly do not care to single out players in any tournament I run, in fact I despise having to do so.

Second to last paragraph, drop the mic. Thud.............
 
Harmless cheating? I would say that this is anything, but harmless.

I suppose that you are insinuating that I am a hypocrite, though I am unsure of your basis for doing so.

Yes, it would have been easier, much in the same fashion looking the other way and pretending not to see it, which is what got us into this mess to begin with.

I have posted under my true name, please tell us yours.

Forgive me for questioning your own "integrity". I was not aware that you were morally perfect and never comprimise your morals.

Seriously Brian, good luck on your quest to solve the racking issue without refs and consequences. Insulting pool players integrity is not going to do it imo.
 
I never stated that I was morally perfect. Nor did I attack you for questioning my integrity, I simply stated that I was unsure of your basis for doing so.

Please take the time to read what I have written, before you respond.

If you would be so kind as to leave your name, I would appreciate it.
 
"Second to last paragraph, drop the mic. Thud............. "

Lol, I know I need to get off the SoapBox, but if you know me, you would know that I am genuinely distressed by the whole situation and I feel as if I did not do all I could about this situation. As a result, some players may have been knocked out of one of my tournaments by something other than skill displayed on the table. If it sounds like a speech, it is because it partly is.
 
No Sarcasm!!

"Second to last paragraph, drop the mic. Thud............. "

Lol, I know I need to get off the SoapBox, but if you know me, you would know that I am genuinely distressed by the whole situation and I feel as if I did not do all I could about this situation. As a result, some players may have been knocked out of one of my tournaments by something other than skill displayed on the table. If it sounds like a speech, it is because it partly is.

I loved it, no sarcasm at all. I appreciate your bluntness. I feel 100% the same way. See my next post.
 
Would Willie Mosconi complained about racking his own balls?

What world do you live in where "harmless" cheating is not taking place everywhere around you? Are there not any free digital downloads in this world? Are politicians honest there? Do the bbusinessmen report every dollar?

Other sports in this world... do they not have referees? Is Lebron calling his own fouls? Are tbere hypocrits in this world making posts about the integrity of others?

Wouldn't it have been easier to just have stated the need for rules and referees to enforce them and left it at that?

These are valid points.

To have tournaments without referees is a crime worse than cheating, especially in the semi-finals and finals.

I'm not saying it's okay to manipulate the rack, if anyone thinks that, please check out this link ----->RACKING LINK

Would Willie Mosconi have complained about racking his own balls, with no referee? LMAO - he would have turned over the table, harpooned the promoter with a Meucci, and stormed out of the building......then he would have got really mad. ;)
 
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These are valid points.

To have tournaments without referees is a crime worse than cheating, especially in the semi-finals and finals.

I'm not saying it's okay to manipulate the rack, if anyone thinks that, please check out this link ----->RACKING LINK

Would Willie Mosconi have complained about racking his own balls, with no referee? LMAO - he would have turned over the table, harpooned the promoter with a Meucci, and stormed out of the building......then he would have got really mad. ;)

I am not so sure that it is a crime worse than cheating, if it was a requirement to have refs at all the tables, many tournaments would not be held.
Also, pointing out that there are people with lack of integrity in other walks of life does not make things any better, any more than saying that it must be okay to cheat because so many already do.

I am under the impression that you are or have devised a new game for pocket billiards. I would love to hear the details, if you are giving them. I am looking for a suitable replacement for 9 Ball, one that actually showcases the many skills players have, besides position and safety play. That is another subject into itself, though.
 
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Last paragraph.

These are valid points.

To have tournaments without referees is a crime worse than cheating, especially in the semi-finals and finals.

I'm not saying it's okay to manipulate the rack, if anyone thinks that, please check out this link ----->RACKING LINK

Would Willie Mosconi have complained about racking his own balls, with no referee? LMAO - he would have turned over the table, harpooned the promoter with a Meucci, and stormed out of the building......then he would have got really mad. ;)

"Harpooned the promoter with a Meucci, and stormed out the building" lol
 
If you really want to stop the problem then just make a MANDATORY ROLL OUT required

Today, 04:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Wiley View Post
These are valid points.

To have tournaments without referees is a crime worse than cheating, especially in the semi-finals and finals.

I'm not saying it's okay to manipulate the rack, if anyone thinks that, please check out this link ----->RACKING LINK

Would Willie Mosconi have complained about racking his own balls, with no referee? LMAO - he would have turned over the table, harpooned the promoter with a Meucci, and stormed out of the building......then he would have got really mad.


I am not so sure that it is a crime worse than cheating, if it was a requirement to have refs at all the tables, many tournaments would not be held.
Also, pointing out that there are people with lack of integrity in other walks of life does not make things any better, any more than saying that it must be okay to cheat because so many already do.

Did I say "refs at all tables," or did I say "especially in the sem-finals and finals".

When you have players in tournaments that only pay 10% of them enough to pay their expenses, the least you could do is have someone there to rack their balls. I've ran many tournaments and NEVER had a problem with racking, do you think this is "just lucky"?

I was at the US OPEN 10 Ball and they had no power, no towels, no water, and didn't even announce the players before the matches. They had the players in a curtained off area with music bleeding over, and no visible perks for the payers at all.

You want to point at the players, just "real eyes" there's three fingers pointing back at the promoters. Through time, promoters have diluted the integrity of the game by removing referees, and taken "green fees" FAR more than it was originally designed. (John McChesney started the green fees to pay the tournament director only - they were $5 per player).

There's tournaments now that take a $20 Green Fee.....talk about a crime!!!

Adding $1500 to a tournament with 100 players, then taking out $2000 in Green Fees? And this is fair to the players? Not to mention "shotgun" starts with no match times scheduled. How did guys like John McChesney run the McDermott Tour with lower green fees, scheduled times for matches, and no issues with racking? How about Jay Helfert? How come we never had these problems at his tournaments?

Are there rules in place to stop the players from touching the balls with their hands? Are there player's meeting to discuss these rules and guidelines? Is there communication directly to the players, or just a "sneak attack" on this forum directed at the players?

If you want to match me point by point, and take the position that the players are to blame, then it's your prerogative......just be clear that I know a thing or two about promoting tournaments and I'll list many specific things that's being done now that enhances promoters, at the expense of the players.

If you really want to stop the problem then just make a MANDATORY ROLL OUT after the break. This will stop all these issues, and actually make the game much better. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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Didn't need to read it, you know you done f'd up now.

Did I say "refs at all tables," or did I say "especially in the sem-finals and finals".

When you have players in tournaments that only pay 10% of them enough to pay their expenses, the least you could do is have someone there to rack their balls. I've ran many tournaments and NEVER had a problem with racking, do you think this is "just lucky"?

I was at the US OPEN 10 Ball and they had no power, no towels, no water, and didn't even announce the players before the matches. They had the players in a curtained off area with music bleeding over, and no visible perks for the payers at all.

You want to point at the players, just "real eyes" there's three fingers pointing back at the promoters. Through time, promoters have diluted the integrity of the game by removing referees, and taken "green fees" FAR more than it was originally designed. (John McChesney started the green fees to pay the tournament director only - they were $5 per player).

There's tournaments now that take a $20 Green Fee.....talk about a crime!!!

Adding $1500 to a tournament with 100 players, then taking out $2000 in Green Fees? And this is fair to the players? Not to mention "shotgun" starts with no match times scheduled. How did guys like John McChesney run the McDermott Tour with lower green fees, scheduled times for matches, and no issues with racking? How about Jay Helfert? How come we never had these problems at this tournaments?

Are there rules in place to stop the players from touching the balls with their hands? Are there player's meeting to discuss these rules and guidelines? Is there communication directly to the players, or just a "sneak attack" on this forum directed at the players?

If you want to match me point by point, and take the position that the players are to blame, then it's your prerogative......just be clear that I know a thing or two about promoting tournaments and I'll list many specific things that's being done now that enhances promoters, at the expense of the players.

If you really want to stop the problem then just make a MANDATORY ROLL OUT after the break. This will stop all these issues, and actually make the game much better. 'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ won't buy this, but he is the teacher. Give him some credit, he keeps working to make our game more prevalent and better. Do your part too
 
the hulk has nothing on Willie when he's' told he hast to rack his own balls

"Harpooned the promoter with a Meucci, and stormed out the building" lol

DON'T TELL WILLIE HE HAS TO PAY GREEN FEES!!!

Then he would run down the middle of the street, ducking in the first alley so he could change into the "Mosconi Monster" - the hulk has nothing on Willie when he's' told he has to rack his own balls and call fouls on himself AND his opponent......and DO NOT tell Willie he has to sit in the bar until it's "his time to play" with no scheduled match times.

Better call the Justice League of America, they're the only ones that can stop Willie when he gets angry.......you don't want to make him angry. :groucho:
the-hulk.jpg


marvel-vs-dc-504x300.jpg
 
So you gonna..

DON'T TELL WILLIE HE HAS TO PAY GREEN FEES!!!

Then he would run down the middle of the street, ducking in the first alley so he could change into the "Mosconi Monster" - the hulk has nothing on Willie when he's' told he has to rack his own balls and call fouls on himself AND his opponent......and DO NOT tell Willie he has to sit in the bar until it's "his time to play" with no scheduled match times.

Better call the Justice League of America, they're the only ones that can stop Willie when he gets angry.......you don't want to make him angry. :groucho:
the-hulk.jpg


marvel-vs-dc-504x300.jpg

CJ you got that bedazzled vest anymore, lol
 
There certainly are some racking "experts" in the pro ranks as well as smaller tours. They even give the fathead smile at their opponent, especially if it's rack your own. It is cheating, but I have never seen a TD with testicles large enough to disqualify a player for "unsportsmanlike Conduct."
If you want cheating to stop, you have to make it risky enough to see the entry fee go down the toilet. At the player's meeting, you tell them that this conduct of rack manipulation will get you disqualified with no warning.

I have played many rack manipulators and I counter it with a good 6 different ways to break. I use a different break every time on a trick racker and break from a different position as well. With very poor racks, my opponents 1st push will be off the foot rail and the one will be on the top rail.
 
Guess I just need to pay closer attention because I just don't see all this cheating that everybody is talking about.

What I do see is a game that has evolved to the point where everybody is good enough to run out and the break has become the most important shot of every match. So it's only natural that professionals would become WAY more concerned with the racking of the balls.

This concern has now trickled down to the amateurs, who for the most part shouldn't be so concerned about it.

Players get better over time. That's all that's happened here. 9 Ball with the one on the spot isn't much of a challenge for professional players anymore. The only challenging part of the game for the big boys is getting the rack right.
 
Brian,

Just returned from another great "No Conflict" event at Gold Crown Billiards in Erie, PA. Paul's racking rules make racking and breaking somewhat less stressful. No need to make a ball on the break to get the first shot at the rack. Only caveats are, two balls must pass the centerline of the table and you can not foul or scratch. Seems reasonable correct?

My elimination match in the quarter finals was interesting to say the least. My opponent made a ball on each of his breaks and sometimes two or three. The ball made was the same wing ball each time. The one ball went in the side a couple of times. As the rules state, I can not challenge his racking, Not even inspect it. Was it just luck or manipulation? Obviously he knew something I didn't. Or did he? Lost the match 6 - 4. Just food for thought. You can bet I'll be practicing my break before returning to the next GCB event! I don't believe in luck. Do you?

Lyn
 
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