Integrity, the missing ingredient .

[Shooter08]

Sad to say, you are correct.

I was repeatedly warned by many people that it would be a waste of time posting here. They were right.

I should have heeded their warnings.

I thought that if I posted something well written, making sure my choice of words and grammar said exactly what I wanted to say, I could avoid many of the problems.

My plan requires everybody who reads my posts to be able to comprehend what it says. If that were the case, there would only be one interpretation of what I said. Anybody would be able to figure out what I meant independent of each other.

Bad plan.

I never said all players were cheaters.
I never said that all players lacked integrity.
The condescension that the troll and his sock puppet found in my original post was found in the part that I meant to be an admission that I could have done a better job and a promise that in the future, I would.

It is my job to fix this problem. Of course I am going to sound like I intend to fix it.

I could go through and prove everything I said, but that won't help.

The real solution is simply to never post in theses forums again.



The negativity and stupidity displayed by some of the posters is amazing. Brian La Nobody? Are you serious? Only a child or a moron would think that is a clever thing to say. I know that is not very civil, but like the last time I was uncivil, what I said is true.

I know, I know, there I go acting all superior and better than though, again. As usual though, all the facts are on my side, not that it counts for anything.

Goodbye. No hard feelings, I hold no grudges, life is too short and there are far to many potential grudges to be had.

Cj Wiley, in no way are any of my comments about negativity, stupidity, or reading comprehension directed towards you. You have been a class act throughout this and I appreciate it.

Opinions on AZ are assholes. For the most part everyone is one. I respect your respect for the game and I have learned that many here have no rspect for the game. If they can't buy a cue for .20 on the dollar or get a well favored matchup they won't play. Nobody has a desire to be fair anymore. Now to really piss you off, CJ to me is one who cares.

 

[CJ Wiley]

No one seems to know the Code of Conduct these days

Thank you for trying to help, but naming who I think is a cheater would hardly make things better.

I am curious as to what blanket statement I made that you are referring to.

It does not really matter, you mean well.

I am going to make a final post after this one.

I appreciate what you are doing for the pool world, I really am rooting for your success. If I can ever do anything for you, don't hesitate to ask.

I hope to meet you in real life someday.
Brian

I'm sure you mean well too, it's the "integrity thing" that was the blanket statement. No bid deal, it was not meant to be insulting towards professional pool players. My position is that there should be strict rules in place to avoid these situations.

Sometimes people are a victim of their environment, in my opinion the players meeting at tournaments should have a rules section, like they did back in the 90s.

No one seems to know the Code of Conduct these days, and the Dress Codes don't seem to show the best side of the game.

There should be rule that if you touch a ball after the rack is off, or the balls are on the template it's a foul.....once the balls are set for the game to start it seems like it's crazy to be touching them in any way, shape or form. Of course we have to have tournament directors that won't take any flak from even the best players.

I didn't realize who you were when the post was started, now I do - let me know if you need some "solution oriented" advice anytime - feel free to PM me anytime.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

See ya later.


Don't forget to look me up.



signed,
Yousef Ukingsuc

I see a permanent ban in your very near future.

Last warning you'll ever receive.

 

[(((Satori)))]

I see a permanent ban in your very near future.

Last warning you'll ever receive.

It's all good.

Mr LaFlamme, you can come back. You have some friends here.



It's time I take a break anyways. Thanks Mr. Wilson for not banning me, I get started and cant quit. Its time I quit for at least a minute though. Bye to all my friends here.

 

[peteypooldude]

Very interesting thread, while I applaud the OP's dedication to wanting to bring integrity to his tournaments I think the generalization that all players lack integrity is troubling. He mentions hustling in one post & there are many that hold the belief on that subject that an honest man can't be hustled & there is truth in that. If you represent your speed to be less than it is to entice another player in some would say you lack integrity. Others could point out that the person you enticed into the game lacked integrity for attempting to take advantage & capitalize on what he perceived your speed to be only to have his avarice lead him into the trap when the game is on and the first player comes off the stall, so this could just be semantics.

In regards to rack mechanics which is what the OP originally started talking about in the beginning of the thread I'll tend to agree that isn't semantics, that's cheating. I'm not a fan of magic racks, I believe good racks like a delta 13 should be utilized along with a neutral racker. Not a fan of the 9 on the spot either. If an honest rack is placed correctly by a neutral racker supplied by the TD then there are no shenanigans so there's no reason to change where the balls have always been racked, with the 1 on the spot.

I've seen integrity in pool, I posted a reply to a thread once on favorite pool stories where I related a match I saw in the Delaware state 9 ball championship where I saw a relative unknown be taunted by Ginky & this guy came to the table and tore off several racks banking balls and getting out from everywhere & at hill hill he broke & made several balls, the cue ball went straight up into the air after hitting the rack and as it descended to the table it barely, just barely glanced off his shaft which was a foul & he called it on himself, no one saw it but him, Ginky told him he hadn't seen it & told the guy to continue to shoot but the player was adamant that he'd fouled & turned the table over & Ginky ran out to close the match. I related how all everyone could talk about was the display of firepower this guy had brought forth to bring the match to hill hill & how what had stayed with me was him calling that foul on himself, integrity .

1 of if not the best posting nember on AZ

 

[ceebee]

I was repeatedly warned by many people that it would be a waste of time posting here. They were right.

I should have heeded their warnings.

I thought that if I posted something well written, making sure my choice of words and grammar said exactly what I wanted to say, I could avoid many of the problems.

My plan requires everybody who reads my posts to be able to comprehend what it says. If that were the case, there would only be one interpretation of what I said. Anybody would be able to figure out what I meant independent of each other.

Bad plan.

I never said all players were cheaters.
I never said that all players lacked integrity.
The condescension that the troll and his sock puppet found in my original post was found in the part that I meant to be an admission that I could have done a better job and a promise that in the future, I would.

It is my job to fix this problem. Of course I am going to sound like I intend to fix it.

I could go through and prove everything I said, but that won't help.

The real solution is simply to never post in theses forums again.



The negativity and stupidity displayed by some of the posters is amazing. Brian La Nobody? Are you serious? Only a child or a moron would think that is a clever thing to say. I know that is not very civil, but like the last time I was uncivil, what I said is true.

I know, I know, there I go acting all superior and better than though, again. As usual though, all the facts are on my side, not that it counts for anything.

Goodbye. No hard feelings, I hold no grudges, life is too short and there are far to many potential grudges to be had.

Cj Wiley, in no way are any of my comments about negativity, stupidity, or reading comprehension directed towards you. You have been a class act throughout this and I appreciate it.

My Daddy always told me, "Son, when you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps, is the one you hit"

 

[Paul Schofield]

Brian- to answer the question of rack manipulation. I don't agree with any gaffing the rack. That is why we almost exclusively use the Magic Ball Rack. It best reduces manipulation. Also why we usually use rack your own. All you can do us give yourself a good rack.

I think those are the best compromises available under the circumstances. No one will ever satisfy the purists. And it is impractical to have referees and dedicated rackets on every table. Plus when tried, the players would rather rack there own.

It is one thing to run an 8 table 48 man event - to a 300 table 7,000 person event. And then obviously the elite pro event. They all have their own challenges.

And as stated earlier, most of the complaints about pattern racking and drills is coming from people that can't run a rack - let along a package. Sorry - that is how I see it.

Mark Griffin

I respectfully disagree with the above. Rather than pick away at every point, I would like to advance a different approach: Any rule that promotes or results in a bad human dynamic is a bad rule and needs to be changed. Rid our games of requirements that incentivise cheating and manipulation that cannot be controlled.

 

[Mark Griffin]

9-ball

Paul,

In concept I will actually agree with you - just not quite enough. The problem is this - 9-ball is an established game. It is what it is. If it is thought that the rules should be changed - then change them. But then it is no longer 9-ball.

So my response is that although I agree with your analysis and opinions, I think it should be called 'no-conflict 9-ball'. I have no problem with that, and IF the pool playing (and watching) public agrees, the 'old' 9-ball will fade away.

It just seems too severe to just grab new rules and tell everyone this is what we are going to do from now on. After all, 9-ball rules have got to be 30-40 years old now.

I appreciate all of your efforts to improve the game and think your creativity is pretty cool. And I think there is place for it. Just please don't expect CSI to be changing our nationals anytime soon!

I also have always appreciated you attitude towards the game. You will never be accused of being a blind follower - lol!

BTW - a little off topic, but I really appreciated your comments on the AZ thread on my surgery. I'm not brave - there was a compelling reason for me to go forward. But it was scary!

Mark Griffin

I respectfully disagree with the above. Rather than pick away at every point, I would like to advance a different approach: Any rule that promotes or results in a bad human dynamic is a bad rule and needs to be changed. Rid our games of requirements that incentivise cheating and manipulation that cannot be controlled.

 

[GaryB]

I was repeatedly warned by many people that it would be a waste of time posting here. They were right.

I should have heeded their warnings.

I thought that if I posted something well written, making sure my choice of words and grammar said exactly what I wanted to say, I could avoid many of the problems.

My plan requires everybody who reads my posts to be able to comprehend what it says. If that were the case, there would only be one interpretation of what I said. Anybody would be able to figure out what I meant independent of each other.

Bad plan.

I never said all players were cheaters.
I never said that all players lacked integrity.
The condescension that the troll and his sock puppet found in my original post was found in the part that I meant to be an admission that I could have done a better job and a promise that in the future, I would.

It is my job to fix this problem. Of course I am going to sound like I intend to fix it.

I could go through and prove everything I said, but that won't help.

The real solution is simply to never post in theses forums again.



The negativity and stupidity displayed by some of the posters is amazing. Brian La Nobody? Are you serious? Only a child or a moron would think that is a clever thing to say. I know that is not very civil, but like the last time I was uncivil, what I said is true.

I know, I know, there I go acting all superior and better than though, again. As usual though, all the facts are on my side, not that it counts for anything.

Goodbye. No hard feelings, I hold no grudges, life is too short and there are far to many potential grudges to be had.

Cj Wiley, in no way are any of my comments about negativity, stupidity, or reading comprehension directed towards you. You have been a class act throughout this and I appreciate it.

You had a valid opinion but as you have found out that is not always appreciated here. It is fairly easy to tell which of these posters are legitimately interfacing with you and which ones are the sleaze bags. Some you would invite into your home and the others would make you check to see if your cue case or cue were still in place. It is what it is---but it is still the best open pool site that is available to us. One of the main rules is to remember is that arguing is futile and you quickly find out those that you can converse with as opposed to those that are only interested in creating fires and then fueling them.

Good luck in your endeavors.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Paul,

In concept I will actually agree with you - just not quite enough. The problem is this - 9-ball is an established game. It is what it is. If it is thought that the rules should be changed - then change them. But then it is no longer 9-ball.

So my response is that although I agree with your analysis and opinions, I think it should be called 'no-conflict 9-ball'. I have no problem with that, and IF the pool playing (and watching) public agrees, the 'old' 9-ball will fade away.

It just seems too severe to just grab new rules and tell everyone this is what we are going to do from now on. After all, 9-ball rules have got to be 30-40 years old now.


Mark Griffin

Mark, I work in the trenches. Tradition and conventional wisdom ain't working down here in 2015. (Is it working at the top?) I have no firm beliefs about what pool should be or should not be. My business has been on the steady increase for years and I credit my efforts to make the game more skillful, more fun, and less antagonistic. I always remind myself, we are doing recreation. I am happy to share my experiences with everyone.

Not to be cliche'd: "Do what the doctor says." so that you can get better faster!

 

[ceebee]

Mark, I work in the trenches. Tradition and conventional wisdom ain't working down here in 2015. (Is it working at the top?) I have no firm beliefs about what pool should be or should not be. My business has been on the steady increase for years and I credit my efforts to make the game more skillful, more fun, and less antagonistic. I always remind myself, we are doing recreation. I am happy to share my experiences with everyone.

Not to be cliche'd: "Do what the doctor says." so that you can get better faster!

I'm not a fan of problems between players, but the game is what it is... it's about the Break Shot & position on the next ball. Altering that scenario is modification or adulteration. If you are thinking of letting a Pro start at the 2 ball, kiss the game goodbye.

If folks practice the Break Shot, they enjoy 9-Ball, if they don't, then they lose. If players think they have a chance by playing no-conflict rules & passing the break shot by, they will start crying about not having the skills to run out.

Buy hey... it's your Pool Room, good luck to you.

 

[cardiac kid]

I'm not a fan of problems between players, but the game is what it is... it's about the Break Shot & position on the next ball. Altering that scenario is modification or adulteration. If you are thinking of letting a Pro start at the 2 ball, kiss the game goodbye.

If folks practice the Break Shot, they enjoy 9-Ball, if they don't, then they lose. If players think they have a chance by playing no-conflict rules & passing the break shot by, they will start crying about not having the skills to run out.

Buy hey... it's your Pool Room, good luck to you.

Obviously you've never played in one of Paul's No Conflict events. I've played in many over the years. Always seem to do well. As a past winner, I'll get an invite to his 32 player "pro" event later this year. I have no fear of playing Mike Deshaine using the NC rules. He can manipulate the rack as much as he wants. All he can run is one rack. Then I'll get a chance to run mine. If I fail, it's my fault. Unfortunately most detractors on AZ have never played in one of his events yet they chastise Paul for the rules package he uses. Play in one then complain. If you stilll want to!

Lyn

 

[ceebee]

Obviously you've never played in one of Paul's No Conflict events. I've played in many over the years. Always seem to do well. As a past winner, I'll get an invite to his 32 player "pro" event later this year. I have no fear of playing Mike Deshaine using the NC rules. He can manipulate the rack as much as he wants. All he can run is one rack. Then I'll get a chance to run mine. If I fail, it's my fault. Unfortunately most detractors on AZ have never played in one of his events yet they chastise Paul for the rules package he uses. Play in one then complain. If you still want to!

Lyn

Hi Lyn, glad you like playing in the tournaments. I'm sure Paul has lots of fans. It's the old chocolate & vanilla syndrome. I wasn't complaining, I was just stating what I like.

 

[Paul Schofield]

This is in reference to the original post:

If you are unable to secure a building with locks and surveillance, then the next logical step is to take everything out of the building worth stealing or just let them take what they want. Just go with it.

 

[wwjdwithca]

Here's an idea:

Play a game that can't be won with one slop shot.
Play a game that doesn't allow " luck " to win over skill.
In other words , screw 9ball.

Make it a call shot game or maybe even turn it into 8.1 ( a faster version of 14.1)

Why hand a title to someone who is luckier but less skilled?
It doesn't make sense.

Isn't that 10 ball?

 

[ceebee]

I like CALL SHOT anything.... 9-Ball, 10-Ball. I like Rotation 8 Ball ( that nullifies duck hunters)

Move the spot 2" for 9 Ball, no 9-Ball counts on the Break, Call Shot (details on what that means) on all balls & Winner Breaks, since making the 9-Ball on the break has been severely limited.

Let's play some Pool...

 

[Henry W]

Important Disclaimer
It is not my intention to ridicule, shame, blame, insult, belittle or demean anyone in particular with this thread. ​

The current controversy surrounding racking in 9 Ball has shown a very disheartening view into the minds of many pool players.

I have been reading up on this subject on the azbilliards forums,looking for a solution,because I am a TD and the current state of affairs makes running a tournament with integrity extremely difficult. A quick fix for now would seem to be magic rack,9 on the spot, racking done by a designated neutral party, inspecting the rack permitted, but players cannot request a re-rack.

What is so troubling is that many people seem to think cheating is acceptable, even admirable.

I will clarify exactly what I mean by cheating.


(A) If, while racking the balls for yourself, you intentionally manipulate the balls to create gaps to gain a competitive advantage breaking, you are cheating. Period.

(B) Studying a rack to spot gaps or any other information that can be used to gain a competitive advantage breaking is legal, even if you racked them yourself, provided you have not violated (A).


Just because many players currently violate (A), does not mean that players are not cheating, instead it just means that there is lots of cheating going on. This, contrary to what many think, is not an admirable characteristic for a sport to have.

Of course, the player who maintains their integrity is going to be at a serious disadvantage when playing someone who does not. This problem forms the basis for the slippery slope we are currently sliding down out of control, gaining speed every second. The end result is that everyone will be forced to cheat as well, if they want to have a chance. In the end, players will try to call it evolution of the game, a necessity or some other drivel, when in fact it is just cheating, plain and simple.

Obviously, the rules need improvement or outright change. Even so, saying don't hate the player, hate the game is in essence removing any requirement that players have any integrity or class.

It is too late in the game for individual players to resist the tide. Although this problem partially originated with players, I think the only ones who can change it are the people who run tournaments, along with the ruling bodies that sanction rules. Unfortunately, both have remained silent, for the most part.

Opinions in support, to the contrary or anywhere in between are welcome, but please think your posts all the way through and be civil.

I am not trying to get feedback on whether we should use magic racks, rack your own, loser racks, 9 ball or 1 ball on the spot, winner breaks/alternate breaks, Europeans vs. American methods, nor looking to hear any criticism about any specific player. There has already been many threads containing all the above and they have accomplished nothing, but to prove what a disorganized mess pool is.

Actually, more than anything, I posted this because I will not turn the other way now that I am fully aware of the magnitude of this problem, as a TD this is my way of shouldering the responsibility to deal with this problem and saying that the buck stops here. I will not have such a divisive issue take away from any future event I am involved in.

Again, I stress that this post is not intended for anyone in particular, despite what some may think. The few players I have spoken with about this issue, I have a great deal of respect for and I do understand that making a living playing pool is no easy task. I have no doubt that everyone would appreciate not having to deal with this issue any longer. I certainly do not care to single out players in any tournament I run, in fact I despise having to do so.

I happen to know Brian and he runs a great tournament at Hardtimes in Sacramento and is passionate about this game. And I agree with Mark Griffith in making rules you can not enforce and just creates conflict. It is my opinion you should be able to rack the balls in any order you want to as long as anyone can then no one has the advantage. I don't play 9 ball anymore because it is a joke with Texas express rules and the racking problems, it seems to me to be impossible to rack the balls on the spot and freeze everything with a standard rack, so what looks like cheating may just be an effort to give yourself a good honest rack and not cheat yourself. And Brian if you did not get any negative feedback it would not be an effective topic of conversation don't give up you got a lot of feedback.

 

[Paul Schofield]

. it's your Pool Room, good luck to you.

The Cardiac Kid is not an easy player to please.