Intentional foul: Hand cue ball to your opponent

[Billy_Bob]

BCA rules 8-ball...

A "not so experienced player" told me you can't pick up the cue ball and hand it to your opponent. I don't agree. I see no reason why you can't. It is just an intentional foul. Is there any BCA rule against doing the following...?

I have many times (playing around better players) seen people sometimes pick up the cue ball and hand it to their opponent. And I have done this myself many times.

You do this when you have nothing to gain by hitting your ball(s) and hitting them would probably cause you to lose the game.

Say there is just one ball left on the table and it is frozen to the 8 and the 8 can not be made in any pocket. And it is unlikely that you could pocket your ball. But hitting your ball would give your opponent a shot on the 8. So it is not wise to hit your ball. It is better to pick up the cue ball and hand it to your opponent giving them ball-in-hand. Your opponent then attempts to make the 8 but has a difficult shot. If he does not make it, you then will probably have a shot on your ball and will have a better chance to win. I have won many games by doing this and seen many other players win by doing this. I've also seen lesser experienced players say "What are you doing?" and have a look of total shock on their faces.

These situations get more complex than this, but basically you would be shooting yourself in the foot to hit your ball as it would probably cause you to lose the game. So don't hit your ball, hand the cue ball to your opponent and let that player shoot himself in the foot!

I see no reason why this would not be allowed. If it is not allowed because of some rule, then you could just intentionally miss your ball, hit nothing, and give your opponent ball-in-hand. Same thing.

Anyway so far as I know, there is no BCA rule against doing this. Correct?

 

[Nostroke]

BCA rules 8-ball...

A "not so experienced player" told me you can't pick up the cue ball and hand it to your opponent. I don't agree. I see no reason why you can't. It is just an intentional foul. Is there any BCA rule against doing the following...?

I have many times (playing around better players) seen people sometimes pick up the cue ball and hand it to their opponent. And I have done this myself many times.

You do this when you have nothing to gain by hitting your ball(s) and hitting them would probably cause you to lose the game.

Say there is just one ball left on the table and it is frozen to the 8 and the 8 can not be made in any pocket. And it is unlikely that you could pocket your ball. But hitting your ball would give your opponent a shot on the 8. So it is not wise to hit your ball. It is better to pick up the cue ball and hand it to your opponent giving them ball-in-hand. Your opponent then attempts to make the 8 but has a difficult shot. If he does not make it, you then will probably have a shot on your ball and will have a better chance to win. I have won many games by doing this and seen many other players win by doing this. I've also seen lesser experienced players say "What are you doing?" and have a look of total shock on their faces.

These situations get more complex than this, but basically you would be shooting yourself in the foot to hit your ball as it would probably cause you to lose the game. So don't hit your ball, hand the cue ball to your opponent and let that player shoot himself in the foot!

I see no reason why this would not be allowed. If it is not allowed because of some rule, then you could just intentionally miss your ball, hit nothing, and give your opponent ball-in-hand. Same thing.

Anyway so far as I know, there is no BCA rule against doing this. Correct?

It's a clear foul. Your opponent gets ball in hand!!

 

[DaveK]

BCA rules 8-ball...

A "not so experienced player" told me you can't pick up the cue ball and hand it to your opponent. I don't agree. I see no reason why you can't. It is just an intentional foul. Is there any BCA rule against doing the following...?

I have many times (playing around better players) seen people sometimes pick up the cue ball and hand it to their opponent. And I have done this myself many times.

You do this when you have nothing to gain by hitting your ball(s) and hitting them would probably cause you to lose the game.

Say there is just one ball left on the table and it is frozen to the 8 and the 8 can not be made in any pocket. And it is unlikely that you could pocket your ball. But hitting your ball would give your opponent a shot on the 8. So it is not wise to hit your ball. It is better to pick up the cue ball and hand it to your opponent giving them ball-in-hand. Your opponent then attempts to make the 8 but has a difficult shot. If he does not make it, you then will probably have a shot on your ball and will have a better chance to win. I have won many games by doing this and seen many other players win by doing this. I've also seen lesser experienced players say "What are you doing?" and have a look of total shock on their faces.

These situations get more complex than this, but basically you would be shooting yourself in the foot to hit your ball as it would probably cause you to lose the game. So don't hit your ball, hand the cue ball to your opponent and let that player shoot himself in the foot!

I see no reason why this would not be allowed. If it is not allowed because of some rule, then you could just intentionally miss your ball, hit nothing, and give your opponent ball-in-hand. Same thing.

Anyway so far as I know, there is no BCA rule against doing this. Correct?

How about this one :

3.29 SPECIAL INTENTIONAL FOUL PENALTY
The cue ball in play shall not be intentionally struck with anything other than a cue’s attached tip (such as the ferrule, shaft, etc.). While such contact is automatically a foul under the provisions of Rule 3.19, if the referee deems the contact to be intentional, he shall warn the player once during a match that a second violation during that match will result in the loss of the match by forfeiture. If a second violation does occur, the match must be forfeited.

It would seem to me that your hand is an "anything other than the cues's attached tip".

When I have seen better players take an intentional foul they always shoot the cue ball, sometimes into a pocket, sometimes an inch (in a safe direction), sometimes into another ball. I can't recall any of the best players around here just picking up the cue ball, they always shoot a foul.

Dave

 

[buzzsaw]

Some of these not so experienced players also think playing a leave is chickensh&t pool. It was probably the fact that you picked up the ball and handed it to him. If you would have just missed the ball he wouldn't have said a word.

 

[supergreenman]

How about this one :

3.29 SPECIAL INTENTIONAL FOUL PENALTY
The cue ball in play shall not be intentionally struck with anything other than a cue’s attached tip (such as the ferrule, shaft, etc.). While such contact is automatically a foul under the provisions of Rule 3.19, if the referee deems the contact to be intentional, he shall warn the player once during a match that a second violation during that match will result in the loss of the match by forfeiture. If a second violation does occur, the match must be forfeited.

It would seem to me that your hand is an "anything other than the cues's attached tip".

When I have seen better players take an intentional foul they always shoot the cue ball, sometimes into a pocket, sometimes an inch (in a safe direction), sometimes into another ball. I can't recall any of the best players around here just picking up the cue ball, they always shoot a foul.

Dave

Dave is right. By picking up the ball you are setting yourself up for a loss. If you are truly in a position where shooting at balls would result in a loss then you'd be better off hitting the cb to a pocket and playing to a stalemate, that is if your opponent is in the same position as well.

 

[UWPoolGod1]

Maybe you can post the wei table of the shot in question. Seems to me that if he was shooting the 8ball, which was tied on your ball, that he could put the cueball perfectly in line with the 8 and your ball and play a light stop shot snookering you stuck on the 8ball (since your ball will travel to a rail. At least thats what I imagine when I read your post. If he's not that bright to do it then its his fault for losing not your fault for pulling the move. I have never picked a cueball up and see no point to do it or confuse someone. Just shoot it close to the ball without hitting it. Don't even fire the cueball into a hole that produces the same effect as picking it up. Just take a normal shot towards the edge of your ball and miss on purpose. Just less or a confrontation that way.

 

[randyg]

Could be a loss of game.....randyg

 

[StevenPWaldon]

Not completely relevant to the BCA issue at hand, but an interesting story:

In the 2000 14.1 US Open, Efren Reyes plays Dallas West.

After a 141-ball run, a safetly battle ensues and Reyes takes an intentional foul, by tapping the cueball with his ferrule to keep it frozen to the ball. Because it wasn't a legal stroke, Reyes incurred a 15 (I think) point penalty.

Dallas realized this and called to verify the rule--that doing such was a particular trespass--and he was correct in doing so. Reyes was penalized appropriately, and it was clear that he wasn't aware of the rule prior to playing the foul.

 

[Da Poet]

BCA rules 8-ball...

A "not so experienced player" told me you can't pick up the cue ball and hand it to your opponent. I don't agree. I see no reason why you can't. It is just an intentional foul. Is there any BCA rule against doing the following...?

I have many times (playing around better players) seen people sometimes pick up the cue ball and hand it to their opponent. And I have done this myself many times.

You do this when you have nothing to gain by hitting your ball(s) and hitting them would probably cause you to lose the game.

Say there is just one ball left on the table and it is frozen to the 8 and the 8 can not be made in any pocket. And it is unlikely that you could pocket your ball. But hitting your ball would give your opponent a shot on the 8. So it is not wise to hit your ball. It is better to pick up the cue ball and hand it to your opponent giving them ball-in-hand. Your opponent then attempts to make the 8 but has a difficult shot. If he does not make it, you then will probably have a shot on your ball and will have a better chance to win. I have won many games by doing this and seen many other players win by doing this. I've also seen lesser experienced players say "What are you doing?" and have a look of total shock on their faces.

These situations get more complex than this, but basically you would be shooting yourself in the foot to hit your ball as it would probably cause you to lose the game. So don't hit your ball, hand the cue ball to your opponent and let that player shoot himself in the foot!

I see no reason why this would not be allowed. If it is not allowed because of some rule, then you could just intentionally miss your ball, hit nothing, and give your opponent ball-in-hand. Same thing.

Anyway so far as I know, there is no BCA rule against doing this. Correct?

Maybe a lot of newer players don't get into this situation because house bar rules usually include "no safeties".

But if your playing BCA rules, then yes, there is really no difference, but sometimes it's better to just tap or play the cueball to avoid the argument. It shouldn't really matter though.

One of the things about rule arguments that always bugs me is how some people call a foul by citing a rule that may or may not exist, and then put the burden of proof on the other player to prove them wrong. I mean, if you have a pretty good handle on the rules and you honestly don't think you did anything incorrectly, especially while you were shooting, why should you have to go look up some half known thought of a rule? Make the other player look it up!

Edit- It's looks like I was wrong about the BCA rules and I apologize. I am suprised at this. APA picking up the ball is done often and most places I've played ball in hand, the ball can be picked up as well. Sorry!

 

[Bob Jewett]

BCA rules 8-ball...

A "not so experienced player" told me you can't pick up the cue ball and hand it to your opponent. I don't agree...

You are not permitted to pass your shot. You are required to shoot a shot when it's your turn, even if it is only tapping the ball with your tip. You may think that this is a too-nit-picky, too-formal approach to the game, but that's the way the rules are right now. The "not so experienced player" was correct.

The fundamental rule of cue sports is that the only way to play is by striking the cue ball forward with your chalked cue tip. Violating that fundamental rule, for example by pushing out with the side of your shaft, puts you in danger of forfeiting the rack, the match or your participation in the tournament.

 

[worriedbeef]

How about this one :

3.29 SPECIAL INTENTIONAL FOUL PENALTY
The cue ball in play shall not be intentionally struck with anything other than a cue’s attached tip (such as the ferrule, shaft, etc.). While such contact is automatically a foul under the provisions of Rule 3.19, if the referee deems the contact to be intentional, he shall warn the player once during a match that a second violation during that match will result in the loss of the match by forfeiture. If a second violation does occur, the match must be forfeited.

It would seem to me that your hand is an "anything other than the cues's attached tip".

When I have seen better players take an intentional foul they always shoot the cue ball, sometimes into a pocket, sometimes an inch (in a safe direction), sometimes into another ball. I can't recall any of the best players around here just picking up the cue ball, they always shoot a foul.

Dave

This is where it becomes silly i reckon. i mean, if you can't just pick up the cue ball and hand it over, you're only gonna just miscue on purpose as the alternative. or at least i have if i felt handing the cue ball over would have been frowned upon.

 

[shinobi]

This is where it becomes silly i reckon. i mean, if you can't just pick up the cue ball and hand it over, you're only gonna just miscue on purpose as the alternative. or at least i have if i felt handing the cue ball over would have been frowned upon.

I could imagine a situation where object balls are close to the cueball such that any "miscue on purpose" would move them, even a little bit -- perhaps not in your favour -- so picking up the cueball (to avoid disturbing them) would be an advantage in your favour. It's not so far fetched, considering it's often when balls are frozen or clustered that intentional fouls are taken.

 

[poolpro]

Wow, I consider myself a VERY experienced player and have played in every kind of league and tournament ( even national ones) I can think of. I found this thread to be very interesting. I was in 100% agreement with the original poster and have picked up the cueball and handed it over many times. It has never been challenged in my 15+ years. You have to be able to take an intentional foul. What I want to know is : has anybody ever known this situation to come up and be challenged in official play in 8 or 9 ball and a greater penalty than ball in hand awarded to the opponent?
This is a very established tactical play in my experirnce in all different forms of rules in different parts of the country. Generally it is a foul and the penalty is ball in hand.

I think from now on, I will just play it as I always have, and get my warning if someone wants to be picky. If I need to do it after that I will make sure I just scratch or misue to give up ball in hand. I think picking it up is a more honest tactical approach. I would repect someone more who is playing a strategic game upfront than trying to resort sneaky tactics.

Just my opinion -
Jason

 

[rackem]

Three foul

If the balls are actually both tied up, then you should just hand the ballback. The 3rd foul would be on him.

 

[supergreenman]

If the balls are actually both tied up, then you should just hand the ballback. The 3rd foul would be on him.

Assuming you're playing 9-ball.

 

[etimmons]

Wow, I consider myself a VERY experienced player and have played in every kind of league and tournament ( even national ones) I can think of. I found this thread to be very interesting. I was in 100% agreement with the original poster and have picked up the cueball and handed it over many times. It has never been challenged in my 15+ years. You have to be able to take an intentional foul. What I want to know is : has anybody ever known this situation to come up and be challenged in official play in 8 or 9 ball and a greater penalty than ball in hand awarded to the opponent?
This is a very established tactical play in my experirnce in all different forms of rules in different parts of the country. Generally it is a foul and the penalty is ball in hand.

I think from now on, I will just play it as I always have, and get my warning if someone wants to be picky. If I need to do it after that I will make sure I just scratch or misue to give up ball in hand. I think picking it up is a more honest tactical approach. I would repect someone more who is playing a strategic game upfront than trying to resort sneaky tactics.

Just my opinion -
Jason

This only a BCA rule. Most tournaments would not use this rule. VNEA does not neither did the IPT.

 

[1pRoscoe]

The fundamental rule of cue sports is that the only way to play is by striking the cue ball forward with your chalked cue tip.

What if you were out of chalk or didn't use any??

 

[Bishop]

^lol

We have a house rule that if you are in a situation like this the only intentional foul you can take is to take your shot and attempt to scratch. Simply tapping the ball or picking it up isn't accepted.

This way there is at least a shot involved, who knows you may miss the attempted scratch.

 

[bsmutz]

I've had this happen to me once playing 8-ball during warm-ups for a league match. I've often wondered since then what the rule would be if you hand it back. Assuming no 3-foul rule, wouldn't it end up being a stalemate and the rack should be played over if neither player was willing to take a shot?

 

[Snapshot9]

Playing 8 ball

the BCA rule is: (the BCA rules are primary with me after having played APA, VALLEY, and BCA leagues)

STALEMATED GAME
If, after 3 consecutive turns at the table by each player (6 turns total), the referee judges that attempting to pocket or move an object ball will result in loss of game, the balls will be re-racked with the original breaker of the stalemated game breaking again. The stalemate rule may be applied regard-less of the number of balls on the table. Please Note: Three consecutive fouls by one player in 8-ball is not a loss of game