Intentional fouls

[CreeDo]

In another thread someone said scratching intentionally is unsportsmanlike
and loss of game. I don't think that's the case, but it got me thinking...

We have some fouls that are acceptible to do intentionally,
and others that are considered unsportsmanlike.
What's the major difference between one type and the other?
In other words why is one unsportsmanlike and the other just, I dunno, 'tactical'?

For example, I have no shot and I'm behind the 8. I can't scoop the cue ball to sink my
opponent's hanging ball that will make his runout easier. But I can just intentionally roll the 8
into his hanger to accomplish the same thing. In 9b, if I pocket the 9 early intentionally so it
gets spotted and ties up a ball near the spot, is that unsportsmanlike and loss of game?
Cuz to me that's a tactical choice like hitting the wrong OB on purpose to tie it up.

The wording in WPA rules is:

Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport
or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly.

Then they list some examples such as intentionally miscuing.
How does an intentional miscue bring disrepute to the sport,
or change the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly? Or practicing during a match?

Note I'm not defending that sort of thing, I'm trying to figure out how they make the distinction
between 'some intentional fouls are ok but others are sleazy'.

Actually thinking about it, I can see why allowing practice is cheap (besides the fact that it's sharking).
I can imagine a situation where I can see the safety my opponent is going to play in the next shot or two.
So I could start practicing that specific kick before the safety even happens. It's like getting
multiple free mulligans on the kick.

 

[Diamond69]

Good vs Evil

In my mind it goes this way.

Intentional foul within the context of the game. ie, I hit my opponents ball on purpose as I have no chance/advantage to hit my ball, so I drop his hanger, hit his into a group of mine.

Intentional foul outside the context of the game. ie, I don't have a shot at my ball, nor can I see his hanger. So I foul by shooting his hanger in directly with my cue, not the cueball.

One is a foul, the other is a foul, and unsportsmanlike.

Make sense?

 

[Bob Jewett]

One thing to remember is the only way you are allowed to change the positions of the balls on the table is by a shot which is a forward motion of the cue stick that strikes the cue ball. Intentionally manipulating the balls in other ways is outside the game.

There are several ways to cheat with miscues. I think Bob Byrne covers some in his "Complete Book of Pool Shots." You may want to check them out.

 

[tatcat2000]

BCAPL usually agrees...

One thing to remember is the only way you are allowed to change the positions of the balls on the table is by a shot which is a forward motion of the cue stick that strikes the cue ball. Intentionally manipulating the balls in other ways is outside the game.

...with this. ^^^^

There may be some other criteria in some squirelly situations, but first and foremost look to the stroke. Look to the cue/CB interaction. If it constitutes what is generally accepted legal contact, then UC is probably not going to be called. If the stroke is clearly and intentionally illegal, UC is likely.

Buddy

 

[onepocketron]

In my veiw, there is nothing illegal or unsportsman like when you take an intentional foul. It's part of the game strategy. If you put your opponent in a head lock, and he has no way of contacting one of his balls, what is wrong with him nudging one of your balls into a cluster to make it more difficult for you to run out? The penalty for a foul, be in intentional or not, is ball in hand which give the oncoming shooter a huge advantage.

To me this is like saying "safes" are unsportsman like. Intentional fouls are part of the game, it is a strategy that is widely used, and there is nothing illegal or unsportsman like about it. You see the pros do it quite often when they are in a bind.

 

[ctyhntr]

In my mind, motive would be major factor determining between just fouling, and unsportsmanlike conduct.

If you didn't know that scooping is illegal, or tried to jump the ball legally but ended up scooping (unintentional). I say it was foul, with ball in hand penalty.

If you knew scooping was illegal, and tried passing it off as a legal jump shot then its would be unsportsmanlike conduct, not just a foul if you were caught and called on it.

 

[Masayoshi]

In my veiw, there is nothing illegal or unsportsman like when you take an intentional foul. It's part of the game strategy. If you put your opponent in a head lock, and he has no way of contacting one of his balls, what is wrong with him nudging one of your balls into a cluster to make it more difficult for you to run out? The penalty for a foul, be in intentional or not, is ball in hand which give the oncoming shooter a huge advantage.

To me this is like saying "safes" are unsportsman like. Intentional fouls are part of the game, it is a strategy that is widely used, and there is nothing illegal or unsportsman like about it. You see the pros do it quite often when they are in a bind.

It depends on the foul. For example, if you create a cluster by hitting the cue ball into an object ball, it is all good. If you rake all the balls towards your pocket with the side of your cue, it is unsportsman-like.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

I broached the subject of intentional fouling to one of the guys I play One Pocket with and in his opinion it wasn't a good idea because we only played for fun. I wanted to hit the bastard over the head with my cue, but refrained from doing so, not wanting to damage a perfectly good Martin '05.

 

[CreeDo]

One thing to remember is the only way you are allowed to change the positions of the balls on the table is by a shot which is a forward motion of the cue stick that strikes the cue ball. Intentionally manipulating the balls in other ways is outside the game.

I think this explains it most clearly... could that part be worded as "moving the balls using anything other than a legal stroke (if intentional) is unsportsmanlike"?

For example, in this situation, if long dong had blasted the cluster apart with a push shot, the ref could call unsportsmanlike conduct, correct? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ja9y8Lv_A1s#t=112s

re: intent - I hate rules with intent or motive built in. I'm sure plenty of players are capable of acting like wide-eyed innocents when they do their intentional foul. There's no way to read their minds as to whether they were aware of the rule or not.

onepocketron: I think most fouls are ok to do intentionally and ball in hand is a big enough penalty, but there do have to be some special penalties for someone who just blatantly cheats.. e.g. smacking the cue ball with their stick to steer it away from a scratch after sinking the 8 ball. Or just hitting an object ball with the tip of their cue to roll it to a favorable place.