Interpretation of a ball being "ON THE SPOT"

dmgwalsh said:
"Great" point, Lou.

Lou, could you do me a favor and check out the racks in these Derby videos so we can figure out which of these guys is cheating the most? I'd do it, but since I am not retired, I have not even found the time to watch all these videos I am uploading.

https://youtu.be/letNDAtNmUc
https://youtu.be/EyrnsFT4E6E
https://youtu.be/2NPwAeaT9-E
https://youtu.be/H_VUr-YYx0M
https://youtu.be/D7BrFnwpfVY
https://youtu.be/SlsbAYLE9X0
https://youtu.be/zVnm3TybRes
https://youtu.be/RX5Lm38M3_c
https://youtu.be/dXb7fFtGwkY
https://youtu.be/FGwJ7uhEqvk
https://youtu.be/mI6kfNPaqco
https://youtu.be/73V0ByJnJV0

p.s. If you have the time, there are more from this year here and I will be uploading probably about 20 more within the next month.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfaC80gLaoP8vn0satUwuirY-dYyC8BD3

By the way, that was a nice "ad hominem" flavor that you added to your argument.
Click to expand...


ya, I'll get right on that for you. I only watched a couple of your videos and commented on one of the ones I watched. Not interested in the rest.

BTW, Dennis, I'm surprised that an attorney doesn't know that ad hominem is Latin for "to the man" or "to the person." I named no one, ergo there is no ad hominem flavor to anything. You're welcome.

Lou Figueroa
 
K2Kraze said:
One last thing.

The spot always matters. Especially in 14.1

Why?

Because we will find 99.9% of the tables WE will play 14.1 on will have a spot of some sort on the baize and NOT an outline of a rack. Perhaps only 98%
Click to expand...

That was my comment about the spot not mattering. I'm just trying to put the question in perspective. I'm suggesting that there is controversy not because there is anything wrong or imprecise about what "on the spot" means, but because you are playing on a table with no rack outline marked on the table. It is this outline that determines the placement of the balls, not the foot spot, which is why I suggested the spot is irrelevant.

Given that you are playing on a table with no marking, you have recognize that deficiency and agree to go with the obvious spirit of the rules. Otherwise, your friend could rack the balls upside down with the row of 5 balls facing uptable. Hey, as long as the 15th ball could fit on the spot, it's legal, right? :D So the point is this: Forget about the spot and agree that the balls should be racked as if there were a rack outline drawn on the table in the exact correct position. That means the bottom row is parallel with the foot rail, and the 15th ball would be on the foot spot. Any other placement of the rack would cause the rack not to match up with the imaginary table outline.
 
ShakesSea said:
Btw, what is ball tapping?
Click to expand...

When you rack the balls, and bang on top of them (usually tapping the front ball with another ball) to get it to stay in place. It makes dents in the cloth, and can even make little dents in the slate over time. Another bad habit, along with that stupid foot spot sticker.

Simonis says their sticker is supposed to reduce wear on the cloth. I'm sure it does. Ever see a ball settle right in the middle of the sticker, where it belongs? Me neither. It rolls off like you're balancing it on an upside down bowl. IMHO, it would be much better for that stupid foot spot to wear out just like the rest of the cloth, and maybe even to get a little divot so the damn head ball sits where it's suppose to. Isn't that what pattern racks are all about?

Foot/Head spot stickers are the devil. Some day, rack on the head spot. It's worn to hell from all the breaking from the headspot from the ball bangers.Balls sit nice, don't they? :)
 
Dan White said:
That was my comment about the spot not mattering. I'm just trying to put the question in perspective. I'm suggesting that there is controversy not because there is anything wrong or imprecise about what "on the spot" means, but because you are playing on a table with no rack outline marked on the table. It is this outline that determines the placement of the balls, not the foot spot, which is why I suggested the spot is irrelevant.

Given that you are playing on a table with no marking, you have recognize that deficiency and agree to go with the obvious spirit of the rules. Otherwise, your friend could rack the balls upside down with the row of 5 balls facing uptable. Hey, as long as the 15th ball could fit on the spot, it's legal, right? :D So the point is this: Forget about the spot and agree that the balls should be racked as if there were a rack outline drawn on the table in the exact correct position. That means the bottom row is parallel with the foot rail, and the 15th ball would be on the foot spot. Any other placement of the rack would cause the rack not to match up with the imaginary table outline.
Click to expand...

I think I understood your point about the spot not mattering when I read your post, Dan, for the reason you just explained.....if the rack outline were indeed present. Spot on so to speak. 😀

I have also realized through this thread that there are a few more facets (not major or critical per se) to my initial inquiry on how the "spot" can be interpreted. At the very least it has opened the rule books for some closer examination which (usually) leads to more understanding and familiarity. Not a bad thing, huh?

Good points and thoughts, Dan.
 
Also, FWIW, conventional wisdom is that you should occasionally alternate the location of the foot spot and head spot, but ball returns make that incredibly unlikely and somewhat awkward. That would go a long way to increasing the useful life of the cloth...much further than trying to protect a tiny little spot with a tiny little sticker, IMHO. :D

Anyhow, it may be useful if you're playing on a home table.
 
K2Kraze said:
I think I understood your point about the spot not mattering when I read your post, Dan, for the reason you just explained.....if the rack outline were indeed present. Spot on so to speak. 😀

I have also realized through this thread that there are a few more facets (not major or critical per se) to my initial inquiry on how the "spot" can be interpreted. At the very least it has opened the rule books for some closer examination which (usually) leads to more understanding and familiarity. Not a bad thing, huh?

Good points and thoughts, Dan.
Click to expand...

Always a good thing!
 
ShakesSea said:
Thanks. That's the only thing I could think of but it's mentioned in the loss of game section and not the racking section so I couldn't make sense of it.
Click to expand...

In that case, I may have it completely wrong. I've only ever heard of it as it relates to racking, and it's not a great practice (done with great care, it's not terrible, but no one does it with great care). But from what you're describing, it can well be I'm talking out my behind! But that's the only reference I've ever heard to ball "tapping". Keep in mind I grew up playing in real pool halls, and these guys were serious about not *abusing* the equipment beyond what was necessary to play the game, so the rules may have something completely different in mind.

You know the kind of place...little pad of felt for breaking...."NO MASSE...NO JUMP" signs all over the place....BYOB...but if you're a decent player, you get the good balls, the good tables, and you do what you have to do to play and no one says a word.
 
lfigueroa said:
ya, I'll get right on that for you. I only watched a couple of your videos and commented on one of the ones I watched. Not interested in the rest.

BTW, Dennis, I'm surprised that an attorney doesn't know that ad hominem is Latin for "to the man" or "to the person." I named no one, ergo there is no ad hominem flavor to anything. You're welcome.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...


I am surprised that a retired PR Officer, such as yourself does not understand an attack on the character of a group or an unnamed member of a group in order to help prop up your argument is similar to an attack on an individual man.

Later, Lou. Always a treat.
 
Last edited:
dmgwalsh said:
I am surprised that a retired PR Officer, such as yourself does not understand an attack on the character of a group or an unnamed member of a group in order to help prop up your argument is similar to an attack on an individual man.

Later, Lou. Always a treat.
Click to expand...


lol, I did not attack a group. I opined on the silence of members of a group. And I didn't prop up anything, I just voiced my surprise. Furthermore, I am surprised (again) that you don't know that none of that constitutes an ad hominem. Apparently some here (not naming names) are very sensitive snowflakes ;-)

Lou Figueroa
 
ShakesSea said:
... Btw, what is ball tapping?
Click to expand...
In the UPA rules it refers to hitting a ball that is in its proper place with another ball to make a dent in the cloth so the first ball will stay in position.

In Europe, the rack areas are often "tapped" which means a template is used to place balls and then the balls are hit with other balls to give dents in the right places in the cloth. After this preparation, the balls can just be rolled into about the right place and they will fall into the dents and you get a perfectly (or nearly) tight rack in a few seconds. This is without the bother of having a template on the table when you are breaking.

If the rack is tapped (in the European meaning) for 14.1 you still need a marked outline for a normal triangle or you end up with break shots that cannot be made.
 
Bob Jewett said:
In the UPA rules it refers to hitting a ball that is in its proper place with another ball to make a dent in the cloth so the first ball will stay in position.

In Europe, the rack areas are often "tapped" which means a template is used to place balls and then the balls are hit with other balls to give dents in the right places in the cloth. After this preparation, the balls can just be rolled into about the right place and they will fall into the dents and you get a perfectly (or nearly) tight rack in a few seconds. This is without the bother of having a template on the table when you are breaking.

If the rack is tapped (in the European meaning) for 14.1 you still need a marked outline for a normal triangle or you end up with break shots that cannot be made.
Click to expand...

Any idea why there's such a stiff penalty for it here, and why it's even mentioned at all in our rules? Is it just the abuse of the table?
 
john coloccia said:
Any idea why there's such a stiff penalty for it here, and why it's even mentioned at all in our rules? Is it just the abuse of the table?
Click to expand...

Random people will make dents in more or less random places. This can make it even harder to rack. I think the UPA rule allows officials to tap balls and with luck they will be in the right places.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top