IPT Jeopardizes 2006 US Open 9-Ball
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They dont have to defend anything or respond. Money talks. That is how they have gotten any PR and that is how the IPT will continue. All the players have the 'deer in the headlights' look & if they are apart of something that squashes the history/tradition of pool that is justified by the minimum $13K they have coming to them.jnav447 said:
TheOne said:Colin I simply compared the WPA sites with the IPT schedule, according to the IPT site the dates are:
150- IPT Tour Members
Dates: October 29 - November 5, 2006
Location: United Kingdom (U.K.) Venue to be decided soon!
Which does indeed clash with the 9 ball WPC. The most disturbing thing in all this is that we hear TWO different versions of events. The IPT is saying they "did everything in their power to work with promoters", then you have the promoters saying this simply isn't true? Hey I'm no Billionaire but I would have thought they could have done a little better than clashes with the top 3 events in world pool, plus a euro tour, a san miguel and the Mosconi cup!!!!
Afterall I thought pool was in shambles before IPT came along so I didn't realise the calendar was that full!?
Hi Craig,
I wasn't disagreeing with you, but I think you mixed up the dates of the World 8-ball and World 9-ball events. My intention was to display the event dates in a clear way so that the clashes can be identified.
I'm not making a judgement pro or con at this stage. But definitely, these clashes are pretty strong and will put a bit of a black mark on the IPT within the pool community unless some compromise is sorted out.
Colin
Purdman
Banned
Grady said:
How's about PMing me with your thoughts. Or if there isn't enough room, email purdman1@go.com.
I will keep it to myself Grady. I don't like what's going on.
Purdman
I am sure Grady has the same thoughts I have already stated. The IPT wants to be the only fish in the sea. This way they can charge $5000 for qualifiers, $10,000 for membership fees and who knows for the TV rights.Purdman said:How's about PMing me with your thoughts. Or if there isn't enough room, email purdman1@go.com.
I will keep it to myself Grady. I don't like what's going on.
Purdman
Grady said:
I'm not sure it's obvious. Here's a few of my considerations though...not intended to stir up muck, but to create a clearer view of this.
1. Short term, the US Open is not a real competitor to the IPT, but with IPT promoting the game to new levels, the current US Open 9-ball could become a competitor if a rival got behind it and boosted it to similar pay levels and high TV production standards. So long term, it could present a risk to the IPT brand as the legitimate US Open pool event.
2. World 8-ball event. Maybe a conflict to some degree, but the event is currently very low profile on the world stage. Hardly a significant concern. Just look at the trouble the US had getting their top players to go there this year.
3. Matchroom: Yes there is a clash with the Mosconi Cup, but not the WPC as I read the dates. So it doesn't look to me like there is a deliberate intention here to go up against Matchroom, which the IPT could easily do if they wanted to.
To summarize, I'm don't see that there is clear evidence here that the IPT is out to get the WPA events. If they really wanted to do that, the WPC would have been targeted.
It will be interesting to see what statements are made and actions are taken in coming months.
If the IPT did want to claim authority over certain titles by placing their dates at clashing times, they are within their rights to do so. But it would be a strategy that would reduce their popularity in certain quaters of the pool community.
But Joe Average will likely know or care nothing about this, and in the end, the players who can demand audience attention will likely all follow the money. If the IPT can make more money out of the game than others, and pay their players better, that their ultimate destination would be to stand alone as the premium brand. The PGA would not consider for a millisecond to allow thier members to play in a rivals' US Open.
So, though I am not convinced the IPT is purposely stepping on toes at this stage, it would make sense that they do so at some time in the future. Such is the path of competition as I see it.
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Yes you're right jspjsp said:Jerry hit it right on the nose. We fans are being selfish. Do we honestly think that the professional pool players themselves care about intimacy and tradition when intimacy and tradition can't feed their families? The IPT is here to revolutionize the sport, such that the players can be capable of obtaining a decent standard of living.
Is it a bummer that there are scheduling conflicts? Yes, i'd hate to see the US Open or the WPC Championships go. But the bottom line is the IPT will be the one controlling the pool market, because it has the money to do so. The players will go wherever the money will take them, cuz that is their profession. The other tours/tournaments can either complain about it and fade away, or they can continue to survive by working around what's dominating the market. That's how capitalism and a free-market economy work, right Calc and chefjeff?
But it's worth keeping in mind, that there is an inherent tall-poppy syndrome among humans. That they resent success. Hence the market leaders often become unpopular in public opinion as evidenced by Microsoft, McDonald's and Walmart among others.
Hence it is not always a good strategy to be seen to be trying to put one's potential opponents out of business to assure domination. It becomes a PR issue. The market's loyalty is fickle...though they'll likely follow their wallet when that suits them.
I'm still convinced that all this competition will lead to better things for the sport in the short and long term. So long as the government keeps out of it
Colin,Colin Colenso said:
If you are going to say something please have some facts behind your thrown out sentences. The PGA lets its' players be in any event they want. You ever see the nighttime golf they have with Woods, Mickelson, Garcia in challenge matches. Are those a PGA event? How bout last weekend when Woods was in Dubai making $4 million while they had a PGA event back here in the states? PLEASE dont make it sound like the IPT is so honorable and trendsetting by letting its players be an another organizations event. All major sports basically allow this. The NHL, NBA players are in the Olympics. Major League baseball players are currently playing in the World Championships. Nascar drivers can enter an IROC or Formula race. Tell KT to turn his headlights off so you can see the road in front of you.
i have not read all the post but it seems that alot of people here are missing the point the ipt is doing us the pool world a massive favour sure long term they will possibly make a lot of money but KT is taking a big risk in this venture which if successful will give world class players a respectable living and give credence to the game everyone else running the game has had years and done nothing there hearts are in it but they dont have the expertise and connections etc the us open might have a lot of tradition but i think he views it as nothing he has no competitors here you only have to listen to his speeches to realise unless you have achieved big things he dont wanna hear from you the sport is on its knees and has been for a long time im sure they have enough problems setting up this whole corporation without worrying about hurting the feelings of a few people quality venues of the size he needs have the best dates usually booked 1 to 2 years ahead and if the ipt folds the good people that have been running all these tournaments can run them again and how can you damage something that is worth nothing in the first place
pokerhammer
Banned
macguy said:
If, and its a big if, the IPT thrives and gets its TV revenue in place, it will be able to schedule more and more events in the upcoming years. This will make all other "semi-big" events less attractive to players since all the money and exposure will be with the IPT. Scheduling this event in Reno at the same time as the US Open is a way to take the spotlight from the US Open and place it on the new savior of pool , the IPT. I phrase it like this because I think its why KT picked these dates. If the IPT can take the attention and revenue from all other pro tours and events in the US marketplace then it has a better chance to succeed as the " 1 and only pro tour" so to speak.
Thoughts ...
You can speculate all day long but the fact remains,
Money talks, bullshit walks. It's like asking someone if they would like be
an Executive Vice President of a bank or an Engineer for an Aerospace Company that pays 3-4 times what the bank position pays.
The IPT might try to adjust a little in the dates, but I don't think much.
The 'other guys' are going to have to adjust with different dates and venues possibly. If not, the players will chose where to play. It's not like their have been past scheduling conflicts where some chose to play in one event over another.
Kt may have not liked how some of the other tours approached him in the beginning about wanting a slice of the pie.
This might just be an indication of a 'shakeout' of the rank and file in the Pool world. It is never easy to get 'demoted' and realize your 'new' position.
There is a new Sheriff in town (as said by local Pool communities when a new player comes to town and beats everyone, and all games revolve around him now).
You can speculate all day long but the fact remains,
Money talks, bullshit walks. It's like asking someone if they would like be
an Executive Vice President of a bank or an Engineer for an Aerospace Company that pays 3-4 times what the bank position pays.
The IPT might try to adjust a little in the dates, but I don't think much.
The 'other guys' are going to have to adjust with different dates and venues possibly. If not, the players will chose where to play. It's not like their have been past scheduling conflicts where some chose to play in one event over another.
Kt may have not liked how some of the other tours approached him in the beginning about wanting a slice of the pie.
This might just be an indication of a 'shakeout' of the rank and file in the Pool world. It is never easy to get 'demoted' and realize your 'new' position.
There is a new Sheriff in town (as said by local Pool communities when a new player comes to town and beats everyone, and all games revolve around him now).
pokerhammer
Banned
watchez said:
Just for the record, The US Open is not a PGA Tour Event. It is a USGA sanctioned event. The PGA of America and PGA tour has nothing to do with the tournament.
Watchez,watchez said:
As someone with 20+ years in the sports industry, having watched the battles between rival organizations over control of their members, your generalizations are at least naive. It's based mainly on your stupidity and a natural tendendy to be contrarian.
May the other members pardon my offensive statement, but your ignorance combined with an assertion challenging my integrity deserves it.
IPT Schedule
A couple of points I'd like to make, but first I want to know, who is Colin Colenso? I've been around pro pool for quite a while and I've never heard of this guy, other than he got kissed into a spot on the IPT. And he sure has a lot to say all of a sudden. Who are you Colin that you have become such an expert on professional pool and what's good for the sport? Can you play? Do you belong? I guess that remains to be seen.
My first point: Forget about loyalty in Pro Pool. I learned my lesson many years ago when I put on a 100K+ tourney in L.A. and most of the top pros followed the company line of one Don Mackey and boycotted my event. Following the tournament where Mark Tadd won $26,000 (not a bad payday at the time, the biggest in pool that year), many players privately expressed their regrets to me for not having played. And by the way, where is Don Mackey today?
Second Point: To date the IPT has put on two events. In the first, two players got hefty checks. In the second 43 players participated and were paid well. The other IPT events were TBA on dates for some time with numerous postponements on scheduling. Now that they have announced dates, there are conflicts with some well established events like the U.S. Open. One thing I find interesting is that the first IPT events on schedule are ones with qualifiers built in. Already we are seeing a slate of five qualifiers, each one taking in approx. 90K with nothing being paid out to the players, other than two players getting tour privileges.
Now the first scheduled IPT event has room for 50 qualifiers and that could mean 25 more qualifying tournaments. Has anyone else noticed that this can be a tremendous source of income for the IPT? Or is it just me?
In fact the income could be so great as to pay the entire prize fund of the IPT tournament. Not a bad business model.
Third Point: All this talk about the multi miilion dollar tour for 2006 and more money in 2007. Is this set in stone somewhere? With the way the IPT is constantly changing schedule and direction, nothing is definite as far as I can see. I've got bad news boys, KT can pull the plug at anytime. He may determine that this is not such a good deal after all and just decide to disband. No one can stop him from quitting if he so chooses. He hasn't signed any contracts that I know of. Camel pulled the plug several years back because they decided pool (and some of it's star players) did not merit their sponsorship.
Fourth and maybe final point: This scheduling conflict may turn out to be simply a case of human error and get corrected rather quickly, so don't be so quick to judge. It may all be resolved in a day or two (I hope). Obviously there will almost always be scheduling conflicts with lesser events. I have the same problem out here with the U.S. Bar Table Championships conflicting with a regional BCA event in Oregon.
Saying all that, my hope is that the IPT will be successful and thrive. It would be a much needed shot in the arm for professional pool, which has been languishing with minor league tournaments and prizes for years. They rarely even mention prize money on ESPN, because it is so mediocre. I would like to think that KT sees the possibilities for professional pool. If pool became a major television sport, the IPT would be a valuable entity and KT would be rewarded handsomely. I for one hope that is the outcome.
But being the cynical guy I am, I will reserve judgement a little longer, and watch as the story unfolds.
A couple of points I'd like to make, but first I want to know, who is Colin Colenso? I've been around pro pool for quite a while and I've never heard of this guy, other than he got kissed into a spot on the IPT. And he sure has a lot to say all of a sudden. Who are you Colin that you have become such an expert on professional pool and what's good for the sport? Can you play? Do you belong? I guess that remains to be seen.
My first point: Forget about loyalty in Pro Pool. I learned my lesson many years ago when I put on a 100K+ tourney in L.A. and most of the top pros followed the company line of one Don Mackey and boycotted my event. Following the tournament where Mark Tadd won $26,000 (not a bad payday at the time, the biggest in pool that year), many players privately expressed their regrets to me for not having played. And by the way, where is Don Mackey today?
Second Point: To date the IPT has put on two events. In the first, two players got hefty checks. In the second 43 players participated and were paid well. The other IPT events were TBA on dates for some time with numerous postponements on scheduling. Now that they have announced dates, there are conflicts with some well established events like the U.S. Open. One thing I find interesting is that the first IPT events on schedule are ones with qualifiers built in. Already we are seeing a slate of five qualifiers, each one taking in approx. 90K with nothing being paid out to the players, other than two players getting tour privileges.
Now the first scheduled IPT event has room for 50 qualifiers and that could mean 25 more qualifying tournaments. Has anyone else noticed that this can be a tremendous source of income for the IPT? Or is it just me?
In fact the income could be so great as to pay the entire prize fund of the IPT tournament. Not a bad business model.
Third Point: All this talk about the multi miilion dollar tour for 2006 and more money in 2007. Is this set in stone somewhere? With the way the IPT is constantly changing schedule and direction, nothing is definite as far as I can see. I've got bad news boys, KT can pull the plug at anytime. He may determine that this is not such a good deal after all and just decide to disband. No one can stop him from quitting if he so chooses. He hasn't signed any contracts that I know of. Camel pulled the plug several years back because they decided pool (and some of it's star players) did not merit their sponsorship.
Fourth and maybe final point: This scheduling conflict may turn out to be simply a case of human error and get corrected rather quickly, so don't be so quick to judge. It may all be resolved in a day or two (I hope). Obviously there will almost always be scheduling conflicts with lesser events. I have the same problem out here with the U.S. Bar Table Championships conflicting with a regional BCA event in Oregon.
Saying all that, my hope is that the IPT will be successful and thrive. It would be a much needed shot in the arm for professional pool, which has been languishing with minor league tournaments and prizes for years. They rarely even mention prize money on ESPN, because it is so mediocre. I would like to think that KT sees the possibilities for professional pool. If pool became a major television sport, the IPT would be a valuable entity and KT would be rewarded handsomely. I for one hope that is the outcome.
But being the cynical guy I am, I will reserve judgement a little longer, and watch as the story unfolds.
jay helfert said:
Boy Jay, I hope that Colin doesn't call you stupid also. Jay, you state you have been around pool for a long time & Colin stated that he has been involved in the sport for 20+ years & you two have never run into each other? I did a quick search on Colin after he opened his mouth & could not find anything on him either. I will be sure to make note of his success in the IPT events.
watchez said:
You have your facts wrong. The PGA Tour has reasonable but not unlimited freedom for its players. Players can play events on foreign tours, but when they do they have to get a release from the Tour if the event conflicts with a PGA Tour event. They also have to play a minimum number of events. Foreign players can ask for a home tour exception and get to play more events etc..., but they still need a minimum number. It is why Tiger could go to Dubai last week, but it is also why Michael Campbell is fully exempt if he wants to be because he won the US Open last year, but will not be allowed to play much on the PGA Tour this year since he would not agree to the minimum number of events. He also had a problem because a few years ago he missed the minimum by one tournament. They tried to work things out, but he wouldn't agree to the minimum this year so he will get a limited number of events. Anyway, that is a long way of saying the PGA Tour has some complex rules, I don't know them all by heart, but there are rules, although workable ones that allow players to travel around some.
jnav447 said:
Actually no, because they already have. Check their Q&A section. And it might astound people what happens in golf. Golf is so big that many times there are 2-3 tournaments in a weekend.
The IPT has scheduled 5 events in 2006. The time span is July to December. I defy anyone to come up with a better schedule. In fact, they will be on a tight schedule as it is. They only have 9 days of rest between the Nov tournament and the Dec tournament.
If this is a con, then it is a reverse con and KT is the one being conned. He is the one who is putting up all the money. He is the one who who will be out the money. Like that commercial where the man says it is his way of putting it to the boss. And the other man says, but, you are the boss.
And yes players will be allowed to skip an IPT event if they want to but there will be consequences for doing so. First, they will lose the prize money from the IPT tournament. Second, by not winning any prize money they may find themselves down in the standings and out of the top 100. That would be a huge consequence.
Jake
Anyone who thinks he did this as a jab at the US Open is way off the mark, he did this because it was the best dates and deal he could get for the IPT. The only thing they could have done was contact Barry to tell him about it, but that's not required, just a kind gesture.
There was no reason for KT to have conflicting dates, it in no way makes his venture any easier. It would have been a waaaaaayyyy better PR to not have the dates conflict, but thats not always easy dealing with large venues, schedules of production and camera crews, (who have other work) not to mention other logistics, and pricing involved with all the above.
But rest assured some will blow this way up and sling mud as fast as a congressman in an election year. Now, it is possible for KT to really bite the bullet and make adjustments but he certainly has no obligation to do so, and I would be shocked if he did.
All the organizations and promoters need to look to the future and make adjustments to advance further regardless. The dates for the US Open might need to be changed if they feel they need IPT players to enter. I'm sure the IPT tried to do what it could, and in reality the IPT should be worried about a long standing tournament like the US Open, but sadly because of the state of professional pool today and the large effort and chance KT is putting out, they mostly need to do whats best for them.
I see great opportunities if the IPT succeeds or fails, don't miss them by worrying about IPT players or dates, or mud slinging, the US Open can go on and be huge regardless, don't blame the IPT for the failure of the current pool bodies to make pool strong enough to fend off a new tour. You need to look at why players are always willing to jump at any new opportunity that comes along with little concern to any tradition or tour loyalty.
Sadly this only happened because of a lack of any real tour or tradition in the first place, if the current state of pool had a real tour going, keeping the talented players fat and happy, with a solid history, does anyone think they would have taken a chance with Kevin? NO
There was no reason for KT to have conflicting dates, it in no way makes his venture any easier. It would have been a waaaaaayyyy better PR to not have the dates conflict, but thats not always easy dealing with large venues, schedules of production and camera crews, (who have other work) not to mention other logistics, and pricing involved with all the above.
But rest assured some will blow this way up and sling mud as fast as a congressman in an election year. Now, it is possible for KT to really bite the bullet and make adjustments but he certainly has no obligation to do so, and I would be shocked if he did.
All the organizations and promoters need to look to the future and make adjustments to advance further regardless. The dates for the US Open might need to be changed if they feel they need IPT players to enter. I'm sure the IPT tried to do what it could, and in reality the IPT should be worried about a long standing tournament like the US Open, but sadly because of the state of professional pool today and the large effort and chance KT is putting out, they mostly need to do whats best for them.
I see great opportunities if the IPT succeeds or fails, don't miss them by worrying about IPT players or dates, or mud slinging, the US Open can go on and be huge regardless, don't blame the IPT for the failure of the current pool bodies to make pool strong enough to fend off a new tour. You need to look at why players are always willing to jump at any new opportunity that comes along with little concern to any tradition or tour loyalty.
Sadly this only happened because of a lack of any real tour or tradition in the first place, if the current state of pool had a real tour going, keeping the talented players fat and happy, with a solid history, does anyone think they would have taken a chance with Kevin? NO