IPT, Kevin Trueau, Players Org...

[unknownpro]

If the IPT were wildly successful, everyone would still be on KT's bandwagon. It's not, so now the IPT players are apparently trying to form an organization to help them with the IPT. Great idea! Wish someone had thought of that last year, lol!!! The UPA and WPBA seem to have an interest now, even though there was none before, when their players were picked and chosen from with no respect to their rankings.

A successful IPT would have made a lot of people a lot of money, and KT would have owned the tour. You can say he would deserve the money and ownership because he put up the money. But he did not invent 8-ball, or money.

I don't want to see anyone owning pool tours besides the players, perhaps along with others involved like promoters, sponsors, tour directors, amatuer players.

An 8-ball tour can only succeed on the merits of 8-ball. If it could work with Kevin running it, then it could work without him. This fiasco shows that money used with stupidity will not work alone. With a little brains, it could not have failed, imo. Any player on this board could probably have used the money spent to start up a tour over a multi-year period that would have enjoyed great success.

However, the IPT players should not pretend to be forming a players organization. That is a seperate issue from suing the IPT and Kevin Trudeau. A players organization should be for 8-ball, or pool in general with separate divisions for different games, one of them not being IPT 8-ball.

Start from scratch with something everyone can be involved in.

unknownpro

 

[8-ball bernie]

i'm all for starting a pro 8-ball tournament. i think the world "out there" needs one. i don't think a round robin is a good idea as it is on paper. i think it should be a race to 4 alternate breaking,and double elmination. but hey, let's see what happens,if the ipt paid us a little money for reno,maybe they will pay the entire thing as promised,and we could get on with it. it would be nice for trudeau to publicly come out and say "i lied,i knew you weren't getting paid for reno but i didn't know how to cover it up, without fearing for my life,i owe you all the money in full, and i will pay you the money in full" that would clear the air,for me at least. hey, the point being it's obvious to everyone you told a blatant lie in front of the world, you knew! we weren't getting paid, come out and tell us, you lied, it was wrong,you'll make amends,let's move on.

 

[NYC cue dude]

If the IPT were wildly successful, everyone would still be on KT's bandwagon. It's not, so now the IPT players are apparently trying to form an organization to help them with the IPT. Great idea! Wish someone had thought of that last year, lol!!! The UPA and WPBA seem to have an interest now, even though there was none before, when their players were picked and chosen from with no respect to their rankings.

A successful IPT would have made a lot of people a lot of money, and KT would have owned the tour. You can say he would deserve the money and ownership because he put up the money. But he did not invent 8-ball, or money.

I don't want to see anyone owning pool tours besides the players, perhaps along with others involved like promoters, sponsors, tour directors, amatuer players.

An 8-ball tour can only succeed on the merits of 8-ball. If it could work with Kevin running it, then it could work without him. This fiasco shows that money used with stupidity will not work alone. With a little brains, it could not have failed, imo. Any player on this board could probably have used the money spent to start up a tour over a multi-year period that would have enjoyed great success.

However, the IPT players should not pretend to be forming a players organization. That is a seperate issue from suing the IPT and Kevin Trudeau. A players organization should be for 8-ball, or pool in general with separate divisions for different games, one of them not being IPT 8-ball.

Start from scratch with something everyone can be involved in.

unknownpro

Unknown pro,

At theinitialbegginngs of the ipt, blackjack dave sapolis of florida tried to get the players united ina players organization, fearing exactly what transpired after reno.

Of course, the players couldn't be bothered with the concept because everything was looking so rosy. Midway through this fiasco, players resisted because they didn't wasnt to "draw a line in the sand, pitting us VS the ipt".

Now that the pros have fallen victim to the ipt's broken promises, they are ready? Most are, but on a sign me up when your ready basis. Typical player attitude.

Imo, a players association should be all encompassing. All pros, worldwide, under one umbrella of protection. Not for any one game, or any one tour. All pros, and with the strengtht therin, would have an imense amount of bargaining power.

And yes, the players association will have NOTHING to do with any potential lawsuits.

rg

 

[Colin Colenso]

Unknown pro,

At theinitialbegginngs of the ipt, blackjack dave sapolis of florida tried to get the players united ina players organization, fearing exactly what transpired after reno.

Of course, the players couldn't be bothered with the concept because everything was looking so rosy. Midway through this fiasco, players resisted because they didn't wasnt to "draw a line in the sand, pitting us VS the ipt".

Now that the pros have fallen victim to the ipt's broken promises, they are ready? Most are, but on a sign me up when your ready basis. Typical player attitude.

Imo, a players association should be all encompassing. All pros, worldwide, under one umbrella of protection. Not for any one game, or any one tour. All pros, and with the strengtht therin, would have an imense amount of bargaining power.

And yes, the players association will have NOTHING to do with any potential lawsuits.

rg

Randy,
At the time Blackjack proposed a type of unionization, I was very much against it for various reasons.

With hindsight, some of his prognostications have come true, and an organized representation could have helped prevent some of the current troubles we now see.

But I'm still very weary of any type of representational body, in particular a universal one, for several reasons, of which I'll expand upon a few that are most relevant.

1. Good representation requires an effective inter-communication method, which is hard to achieve.
2. Those who seek power, and who would benefit by it in their own interests would be attracted to representative positions.
3. Representation (or unionism) without granted powers from the government is almost powerless. And I would not want immoral laws, such as those that currently protect most unions, supporting such a player's union.
4. Unionized members increase the price of entry into an entrepreneur's business model, hence decreasing their incentive to enter into it.
5. Unionized members have an incentive to restrict membership to potential future members.

So while it may be good for players to join in arms to achieve some goals, there are several very important negative externalities that are being overlooked.

Ideally, the players involved could unite in their needs and support a trusted representative to fight fairly for their cause, but the tale of history, as I understand it, is that such unions have achieved nearly the opposite of the egalitarian type ideals they have set out to achieve.

In the end, it will likely come out to a bunch of individuals taking a risk. Some of them benefiting, and some of them feeling cheated, or regretting the risks they took.

Colin

 

[NYC cue dude]

sorry, double post, dont know how that happened

 

[NYC cue dude]

Randy,
At the time Blackjack proposed a type of unionization, I was very much against it for various reasons.

With hindsight, some of his prognostications have come true, and an organized representation could have helped prevent some of the current troubles we now see.

But I'm still very weary of any type of representational body, in particular a universal one, for several reasons, of which I'll expand upon a few that are most relevant.

1. Good representation requires an effective inter-communication method, which is hard to achieve.
2. Those who seek power, and who would benefit by it in their own interests would be attracted to representative positions.
3. Representation (or unionism) without granted powers from the government is almost powerless. And I would not want immoral laws, such as those that currently protect most unions, supporting such a player's union.
4. Unionized members increase the price of entry into an entrepreneur's business model, hence decreasing their incentive to enter into it.
5. Unionized members have an incentive to restrict membership to potential future members.

So while it may be good for players to join in arms to achieve some goals, there are several very important negative externalities that are being overlooked.

Ideally, the players involved could unite in their needs and support a trusted representative to fight fairly for their cause, but the tale of history, as I understand it, is that such unions have achieved nearly the opposite of the egalitarian type ideals they have set out to achieve.

In the end, it will likely come out to a bunch of individuals taking a risk. Some of them benefiting, and some of them feeling cheated, or regretting the risks they took.

Colin

Of course colin, your points are valid,and throughout history we have seen these very examples used in countering unionization.

Personally, i am against unions because of these very issues, particularly the overall higher cost of doing business as the main detracting factor for me.

But as far as the poolplayers are concerned, history has repeated itself several times with regards to players getting screwed.

Evidence shows us the current system of every man for themselves fighting the goliath has proved fruitless.

THis reason alone outweighs all the possible negatives in my mind, but in the end, anything can happen, and a corrupt union is certainly a possibility.

WIth pools public history, and the precedent already being set for players being cheated, their already exists the incentive for this to happen again.

I am sure there are some very good people, and players alike who could create a viable protective organization, and to me it is certainly thel esser of two evils.

rg

 

[JC51534]

I am sure there are some very good people, and players alike who could create a viable protective organization, and to me it is certainly thel esser of two evils.
rg

please.........

Pool Players need protection from themselves!!! They are thier own worse enemy!

You get what you give.
All great sports figures give back to the game that enriches them.

This is how I measure a "Pool Player" take away thier ability to play and What are you left with?

If players would promote the Game FIRST, then themselves, they would be amazed at what comes back!!!

 

[justnum]

In all the treasure troves of information I've seen

one thing is always fact

volumes speak louder than quality.

Several people reporting similar incidents is more visible than a few reporting what may be unrelated circumstances.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Of course colin, your points are valid,and throughout history we have seen these very examples used in countering unionization.

Personally, i am against unions because of these very issues, particularly the overall higher cost of doing business as the main detracting factor for me.

But as far as the poolplayers are concerned, history has repeated itself several times with regards to players getting screwed.

Evidence shows us the current system of every man for themselves fighting the goliath has proved fruitless.

THis reason alone outweighs all the possible negatives in my mind, but in the end, anything can happen, and a corrupt union is certainly a possibility.

WIth pools public history, and the precedent already being set for players being cheated, their already exists the incentive for this to happen again.

I am sure there are some very good people, and players alike who could create a viable protective organization, and to me it is certainly thel esser of two evils.

rg

Randy,
I get what you're saying above.

I discussed the issue in more detail in sjm's new thread which directly relates to unions here:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=47096

As I said there, I'm open to some middle ground. Hence, an improved situation could be as simple as a group of 20 or 30 players who have the most to gain, or lose for that matter, choosing a representative that would collectively bargain, or discuss conditions of cooperation with the organizer.

The goal of that representative in this IPT case would have been to secure guarantees on legally binding paper. To assure monies were placed into escrow accounts etc.

The other players, though apparently powerless, would still likely have benefited from the efforts of this smaller, well organized group and supported them, so long as their work was fair and relatively transparent.

Colin

 

[NYC cue dude]

Randy,
I get what you're saying above.

I discussed the issue in more detail in sjm's new thread which directly relates to unions here:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=47096

As I said there, I'm open to some middle ground. Hence, an improved situation could be as simple as a group of 20 or 30 players who have the most to gain, or lose for that matter, choosing a representative that would collectively bargain, or discuss conditions of cooperation with the organizer.

The goal of that representative in this IPT case would have been to secure guarantees on legally binding paper. To assure monies were placed into escrow accounts etc.

The other players, though apparently powerless, would still likely have benefited from the efforts of this smaller, well organized group and supported them, so long as their work was fair and relatively transparent.

Colin

My fear in such a scenario would be those looking in from the outside would be screaming favoritism, and any atempts to get "inside" the 20/30 would be called nepotistic at best.

Of course, without the majority of players on the same page, in such case as the ipt, these 20 or 30 players would be deemed more trouble than their participationwas worth, and ultimately could lead to their exclusion. Afterall, wihta filed of 200, even 30 of the top player spots could be filled easily.

My opinion is still, that to be taken seriously, a group must have near majority participation to weild meaningful power. Less than that, there exists no real incentives to be heard and overall diminished bargaining power.

rg

 

[unknownpro]

Unknown pro,

At theinitialbegginngs of the ipt, blackjack dave sapolis of florida tried to get the players united ina players organization, fearing exactly what transpired after reno.

Of course, the players couldn't be bothered with the concept because everything was looking so rosy. Midway through this fiasco, players resisted because they didn't wasnt to "draw a line in the sand, pitting us VS the ipt".

rg

Blackjack was not alone.

unknownpro

 

[unknownpro]

Randy,
At the time Blackjack proposed a type of unionization, I was very much against it for various reasons.

With hindsight, some of his prognostications have come true, and an organized representation could have helped prevent some of the current troubles we now see.

But I'm still very weary of any type of representational body, in particular a universal one, for several reasons, of which I'll expand upon a few that are most relevant.

1. Good representation requires an effective inter-communication method, which is hard to achieve.
2. Those who seek power, and who would benefit by it in their own interests would be attracted to representative positions.
3. Representation (or unionism) without granted powers from the government is almost powerless. And I would not want immoral laws, such as those that currently protect most unions, supporting such a player's union.
4. Unionized members increase the price of entry into an entrepreneur's business model, hence decreasing their incentive to enter into it.
5. Unionized members have an incentive to restrict membership to potential future members.

So while it may be good for players to join in arms to achieve some goals, there are several very important negative externalities that are being overlooked.

Ideally, the players involved could unite in their needs and support a trusted representative to fight fairly for their cause, but the tale of history, as I understand it, is that such unions have achieved nearly the opposite of the egalitarian type ideals they have set out to achieve.

In the end, it will likely come out to a bunch of individuals taking a risk. Some of them benefiting, and some of them feeling cheated, or regretting the risks they took.

Colin

That's why I think there need to be strict rules as to what a player's organization does and doesn't do. Open access to qualify at a reasonable cost would be one. Elected representatives should have limited powers, like our government used to (remember when the House of Representatives had to vote to declare war, like it says in the U.S. Constitution?). Simple rules can save lots of headaches, or killing sometimes...

unknownpro

 

[unknownpro]

Did someone move my thread? Why? I thought I put it in the main forum for everybody to see?

I don't wish to be in the IPT anymore. When I did, nobody involved gave a *&%$ so why should we care about you poor slobs now. Some of you made a bunch, some lost a bunch, and I sat here with almost nothing knowing I can drill you all. Thank God for small miracles.

My post was for the players looking to actually do something totally above board that will benefit all of us in the future. The IPT is dead. Sue them all you want, excuse me if I am unconcerned. Let's try something that might actually work. Help, get me out of this crooked forum!

unknownpro

 

[Roy Steffensen]

Help, get me out of this crooked forum!
unknownpro

On top of your screen, all the way to the right, there is a red "button" with a big white X on it. Try to click it with your left button on the mouse everytime you pop in to AZB.

Guaranteed that it will work!

 

[sniper]

My fear in such a scenario would be those looking in from the outside would be screaming favoritism, and any atempts to get "inside" the 20/30 would be called nepotistic at best.

This is a good point, which leads to another question. How would the 20/30 players be chosen? Guaranteed some players not chosen into this group would be upset and may not even want anything to do with the idea. Some of the people on the outside would undoubtedly become jealous which would just lead to more problems.

 

[Snapshot9]

Selection ...

This is a good point, which leads to another question. How would the 20/30 players be chosen? Guaranteed some players not chosen into this group would be upset and may not even want anything to do with the idea. Some of the people on the outside would undoubtedly become jealous which would just lead to more problems.

First, decide if it is just USA players, or international. Then take the top 20/30 players in the IPT money list.

I asked about international because of possible communication or meeting
problems if the international players were in the association.

 

[CaptiveBred]

and I sat here with almost nothing knowing I can drill you all. Thank God for small miracles.

Nobody believes you are a pro lol I just love keyboard experts. One of the most entertaining things the internet has brought us You know, the guys who claim to be elite at their prefered forums but remain "unknown"

The real deals ALWAYS step up. never hide...

Hows that left handed ghost game coming? 9 packs by now, right? lol

 

[DaveK]

First, decide if it is just USA players, or international. Then take the top 20/30 players in the IPT money list.

I asked about international because of possible communication or meeting
problems if the international players were in the association.

First and foremost, it would be foolish to not allow the best players in the world to join (ie the Fillipinos, the Germans, and the Taiwanese).

Second, the only way to make this really work is to include all QUALIFIED pro's, not just some arbitraily small number like 20 or 30. A small group would have little influence. ("Qualified" must be defined, but the numbers must be sufficient to handle all players who are skilled enough to compete at these levels, the 150 number used by the IPT is pretty good imo.)

Third, I'd guess that international players have no trouble communicating, however it may be possible that they could not communicate with you in English. That should not preclude them from being members. Having said this, I have found that most 'internationals' (as viewed by us North Americans) have much superior language skills than the average public school educated person from, say, Wichita or Saskatoon. You should have travelled more when you worked for Learjet Scott, it would have opened your eyes a bit.

Dave

 

[Jimk]

First and foremost, it would be foolish to not allow the best players in the world to join (ie the Fillipinos, the Germans, and the Taiwanese).

Second, the only way to make this really work is to include all QUALIFIED pro's, not just some arbitraily small number like 20 or 30. A small group would have little influence. ("Qualified" must be defined, but the numbers must be sufficient to handle all players who are skilled enough to compete at these levels, the 150 number used by the IPT is pretty good imo.)

Third, I'd guess that international players have no trouble communicating, however it may be possible that they could not communicate with you in English. That should not preclude them from being members. Having said this, I have found that most 'internationals' (as viewed by us North Americans) have much superior language skills than the average public school educated person from, say, Wichita or Saskatoon. You should have travelled more when you worked for Learjet Scott, it would have opened your eyes a bit.

Dave

By their very nature pool players are not joiners. Unfortunately, it has just about always been me first. A retired executive from Microsoft purchased the PBA, bowlers, and turned it in to a viable association. Pool needs a savior. Someone who will do the right thing for all of the players, not just a few. Then the players have to be willing to follow. Look at the ladies tour. And typically the ladies lag behind the men. When John Schmidt was at this site looking for someone to put him in the U.S.Open, it was a real eye opener. There is NO MONEY in pool. The great Mizerack said that if pool didn't catch on after the spark of "The Color of Money" it was dead. So far he has been right.

 

[unknownpro]

Nobody believes you are a pro lol I just love keyboard experts. One of the most entertaining things the internet has brought us You know, the guys who claim to be elite at their prefered forums but remain "unknown"

The real deals ALWAYS step up. never hide...

Hows that left handed ghost game coming? 9 packs by now, right? lol

It's coming slowly. Best lately is getting 10-ahead at 6-ball on my sticky 4" pockets. I've had to start and stop playing because of my shoulder problems. I was playing till I ran at least 50 racks of 6-ball to get in shape and in stroke a little but I had to quit for awhile and try some different tactics on my rehab. Don't worry, I'm keeping score.

How are you doing? Playing 6-ball may seem like child's play. But even struggling to get 10-ahead at 6-ball, that level on this table was good enough to beat the 3'rd or 4'th best player in the state 4 out of 5 sets. So don't worry too much, I'll be okay, just have to go a lot slower than I had hoped. It had been a while since I had played and I've made changes in my stance so many times... In fact, I just made another one today after not playing a couple of weeks.

Just how much would you like to wager that I have beaten, Efren, Earl, Nick, and on and on and on?

unknownpro