IPT Meltdown

[jay helfert]

As many of you know I have been following the events of the IPT rather closely lately. Like most of you I became alarmed, the moment I heard the players who hung around until Sunday, Sept. 10 in Reno, were not paid. That to me was a bad sign. Definitely not the way to run a major professional pool tournament.

Here we are a month later and the players remain unpaid, with only vague promises coming from the IPT minions and conflicting statements from the tour founder. From my past experience with the IPT, I began to suspect the worst. In my case, after one month, I was only a $5,500 in arrears. Now we are talking millions. It may be a little harder to settle this debt.

It appears we are witnessing the slow meltdown of the Trudeau dream. The IPT was to be his crowning glory, Pool's equivalent of the World Poker Tour. Something has gone disasterously wrong and the dream is evaporating before our eyes. It is like a ship slowly sinking into the depths, disappearing without a trace. Soon there will be nothing left except the memory.

 

[professorpool]

It was doomed from the off. The business model was completely warped.

 

[Purdman]

There Is Hope!

I saw a commercial for Natural Cures II, the sequel. Maybe if the guy can doop another million elderly, terminally ill and dying people out of their last dime, we will have a go on the IPT. I smell cheese!
Purdman

 

[Roadie]

Perhaps we are witnessing the sinking of the equivalent of the billiards Titanic.

It seems though that it may yet be a little early to put the nails in the coffin.

As far as whether the "business model" was/is flawed, perhaps it is but no one before had ever tried anything as grand and no one to date has ever been able to use any other "business model" to put pool in the big time.

It is really easy to pass judgement from the outside of an organization.

This one however, is a prime example of "the bigger they are the harder they fall".

The IPT has raised the bar. I hope some of the promoters out there will stop the silly made-for-tv events that only benefit a few players who are forced to play made-up games, and will instead start something meaningful and sustainable.

The IPT has shown that there are definitely players from around the world who will step up to follow their dream. It has brought us players of incredible talent who might have otherwise never stepped to the world stage. Who can forget the perserverance of Vilmos Foldes? Would anyone have bet on Jasmin Oushan to beat any sized field of world-beaters to win a qualifier?

Who would ever believe that Loree Jon Jones would run five racks on Thorsten Hohmann to put him out?

Sweating the brackets round for round where players absolutely had to win by certain margins to stay alive was exciting.

The steady stream of on-site reporting and the volume of photographs has been amazing.

The absolute JOY felt by players everywhere about there being a real possiblity of a respectable career as a professional pool player has been uplifting.

The IPT has failed in the grassroots department. Why they did not devote a good part of the budget to hiring an small army of recruiters and drummers is a good question.

Poker depends mightily on the legions of amateurs who feed players into the satelites who feed players into the big events. Pool definitely has the depth of amateur players who play regularly. There are plenty of decent players who feel like they could hang with the big boys if they had the chance. A super grassroots operation would have and may still create that base for pool.

No one can take away the milestones the IPT has passed. If the last tournament goes unpaid it will of course be the largest default on prize money in pool's history but to be fair it will have followed the largest payouts in pool history. Another point that has not been mentioned is that when all of the expenses of the players are counted in from the IPT's inception until now, including all of the players who have played in qualifiers, the resulting amount is a mere fraction of the prize money that has been awarded already. This should be kept in mind when words like scam and criminal intent are used to describe the IPT and it's founder.

Unlike other notable promoters who have absconded with or otherwise not paid out monies that were mostly supplied by the players themselves, at least in this case the prize fund was much greater than the investment made by the participants.

It will be incredibly sad and bitter for the players who fought valiantly at the last tournament if they do not recieve the prizes they earned and were promised. It will be a further blow if the IPT does cease to exist because they it will deal a severe blow to the dreams and hopes of hundreds of great players and thousands more who were ready to commit to the tour.

But that will still not erase the fact that the IPT has given diehard pool fans a glimpse into what pool could be. It will not erase the memories of grand tournament rooms, attentive staff, luxury green rooms, a truly hard competitive enviroment with no easy draws and the idea that someone once believed enough in pool and poolplayers to invest that much into it and them.

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

Perhaps we are witnessing the sinking of the equivalent of the billiards Titanic.

It seems though that it may yet be a little early to put the nails in the coffin.

As far as whether the "business model" was/is flawed, perhaps it is but no one before had ever tried anything as grand and no one to date has ever been able to use any other "business model" to put pool in the big time.

It is really easy to pass judgement from the outside of an organization.

This one however, is a prime example of "the bigger they are the harder they fall".

The IPT has raised the bar. I hope some of the promoters out there will stop the silly made-for-tv events that only benefit a few players who are forced to play made-up games, and will instead start something meaningful and sustainable.

The IPT has shown that there are definitely players from around the world who will step up to follow their dream. It has brought us players of incredible talent who might have otherwise never stepped to the world stage. Who can forget the perserverance of Vilmos Foldes? Would anyone have bet on Jasmin Oushan to beat any sized field of world-beaters to win a qualifier?

Who would ever believe that Loree Jon Jones would run five racks on Thorsten Hohmann to put him out?

Sweating the brackets round for round where players absolutely had to win by certain margins to stay alive was exciting.

The steady stream of on-site reporting and the volume of photographs has been amazing.

The absolute JOY felt by players everywhere about there being a real possiblity of a respectable career as a professional pool player has been uplifting.

The IPT has failed in the grassroots department. Why they did not devote a good part of the budget to hiring an small army of recruiters and drummers is a good question.

Poker depends mightily on the legions of amateurs who feed players into the satelites who feed players into the big events. Pool definitely has the depth of amateur players who play regularly. There are plenty of decent players who feel like they could hang with the big boys if they had the chance. A super grassroots operation would have and may still create that base for pool.

No one can take away the milestones the IPT has passed. If the last tournament goes unpaid it will of course be the largest default on prize money in pool's history but to be fair it will have followed the largest payouts in pool history. Another point that has not been mentioned is that when all of the expenses of the players are counted in from the IPT's inception until now, including all of the players who have played in qualifiers, the resulting amount is a mere fraction of the prize money that has been awarded already. This should be kept in mind when words like scam and criminal intent are used to describe the IPT and it's founder.

Unlike other notable promoters who have absconded with or otherwise not paid out monies that were mostly supplied by the players themselves, at least in this case the prize fund was much greater than the investment made by the participants.

It will be incredibly sad and bitter for the players who fought valiantly at the last tournament if they do not recieve the prizes they earned and were promised. It will be a further blow if the IPT does cease to exist because they it will deal a severe blow to the dreams and hopes of hundreds of great players and thousands more who were ready to commit to the tour.

But that will still not erase the fact that the IPT has given diehard pool fans a glimpse into what pool could be. It will not erase the memories of grand tournament rooms, attentive staff, luxury green rooms, a truly hard competitive enviroment with no easy draws and the idea that someone once believed enough in pool and poolplayers to invest that much into it and them.

Deno, is that you ?
Doug
(it reads like Deno)

 

[Purdman]

What da hell is this, DAMMAGE CONTROL!
Your first post and you want to defend the undefensable. Man, don't defend and don't denie the reality of the situation. The bottom feeder has run out of chum. If you want me to believe that I should go out and buy Natural Cures II, the sequel, to save pool, you are nuts. No offence meant buddy, but what you been smoking? You should probably give it up!
Purdman

 

[jjinfla]

There you go exaggerating again Jay. It hasn't been a month since the players have not been paid, only 27 days.

Jay, at least you call it a dream that Trudeau had and not a scam. It looks like it has turned into a nightmare. Smoke some pot with Purdman, everything will look better. It is supposed to slow down alzheimeir's disease according to the latest study.

Everything you say Roadie is true but it does sound like a swan song from someone in the IPT organization.

Mike Sigel will go down in history as not only the greatest player from the 90's; the greatest road player for ten years running; but also for pulling off the greatest scam in pool history. None of this could have happened without him. The good, the bad and now the ugly. But Mike did get his 30 pieces of silver and after all, that is all that any good road hustler ever wants - the money. The hell with everybody else.

The pool community should all take note, bow down to Mike, and proclaim him the greatest con artist, pool player of all time.

Yep, that is the true nature of pool. We should all strive to lower ourselves to that level.

Jake

 

[memikey]

....The IPT has shown that there are definitely players from around the world who will step up to follow their dream.....

.... That was never in any doubt surely? Show them the money and they'll step up....no praise due to IPT whatsoever for showing what is blindingly obvious...

..... Another point that has not been mentioned is that when all of the expenses of the players are counted in from the IPT's inception until now, including all of the players who have played in qualifiers, the resulting amount is a mere fraction of the prize money that has been awarded already. This should be kept in mind when words like scam and criminal intent are used to describe the IPT and it's founder.....

.... Well whoopee schit,let's have a party! Fair enough taken as an aggregate but the reality is that many individuals will be 'out' what are huge sums of money for them,for example all the players who only qualified for The World Open and not the NA Open.Those players or their backers will have lost several thousand dollars each without receving a cent in return.All the players investing in qualifier entry fees will also be 'out' at least 2,000/- each with not a cent in return.It will be absolutely no consolation whatsoever to any of those people to know that there is a sugar coated viewpoint that on a summarised aggregate more in total was paid out to players than was invested by players...


.....But that will still not erase the fact that the IPT has given diehard pool fans a glimpse into what pool could be. It will not erase the memories of grand tournament rooms, attentive staff, luxury green rooms, a truly hard competitive enviroment with no easy draws and the idea that someone once believed enough in pool and poolplayers to invest that much into it and them.....

... On the contrary it is actually a blinding light of clarity as regards what pool cannot possibly be.If you had asked any player before the first IPT tournament first started if they would rather have genuinely guaranteed sizeable prize money and the tournament staged in a middle of the road venue or an iffy guarantee of huge prize money and the tournament staged in glitzy venues with fancy practice/tournament rooms and free masseurs/food etc it is a nailed on certainty that every single one would choose the former...

Your post is no doubt from the heart and honestly well intended but has the air of syrupy sentiment that is unlikely to be bought into by many of those out of pocket and I fear that even those who share your feelings may find them fading with time as reality sets in.They will probably be replaced with anger.

However I definitely share your view that IPT was never a premeditated scam......well at least not by KT,eh Jake?

 

[Roadie]

No gentlemen, just a person who has watched the IPT from it's inception, it's skeptical reception, it's grand events, and now it's shameful predicament. I have watched the participants of this board tear each other apart to the point of denigrating each other's values over opinions about the IPT.

The facts in my previous post are true as far as I can see it. I don't really come down one way or the other except to try and promote a positive attitude towards the situation.

It is my opinion that perhaps a little more perspective should be gained when dissecting the IPT. From all that I have read about this on this forum during the last year it is obvious that there is a great amount of polarity and personality tied to this subject.

My goal is to share my analysis without interjecting much in the way of morality or premature judgement. I realize that I cannot be totally and scholarly subjective but I sincerely hope not to offend anyone's feelings.

I hope that anything I write can be discussed without the personal confrontation that seems to mar so much of the discussion when it comes to the IPT.

I don't really see where in my analysis that I have defended the IPT. If someone would care to quote that part which they feel I did then I will discuss it further and provide either a reason for what I said or a retraction if I said anything that is not true or reasonable.

Otherwise, anyone is free to speculate on both my motivations, use of drugs or whatever you would like to do besides talk about the points I make. I hope you will forgive me if I don't play along. I really don't intend to do much more than lurk and put up a post once in a while when I feel really inspired to as I have been by the current discussion.

 

[Island Drive]

Perhaps we are witnessing the sinking of the equivalent of the billiards Titanic.

It seems though that it may yet be a little early to put the nails in the coffin.

As far as whether the "business model" was/is flawed, perhaps it is but no one before had ever tried anything as grand and no one to date has ever been able to use any other "business model" to put pool in the big time.

It is really easy to pass judgement from the outside of an organization.

This one however, is a prime example of "the bigger they are the harder they fall".

The IPT has raised the bar. I hope some of the promoters out there will stop the silly made-for-tv events that only benefit a few players who are forced to play made-up games, and will instead start something meaningful and sustainable.

The IPT has shown that there are definitely players from around the world who will step up to follow their dream. It has brought us players of incredible talent who might have otherwise never stepped to the world stage. Who can forget the perserverance of Vilmos Foldes? Would anyone have bet on Jasmin Oushan to beat any sized field of world-beaters to win a qualifier?

Who would ever believe that Loree Jon Jones would run five racks on Thorsten Hohmann to put him out?

Sweating the brackets round for round where players absolutely had to win by certain margins to stay alive was exciting.

The steady stream of on-site reporting and the volume of photographs has been amazing.

The absolute JOY felt by players everywhere about there being a real possiblity of a respectable career as a professional pool player has been uplifting.

The IPT has failed in the grassroots department. Why they did not devote a good part of the budget to hiring an small army of recruiters and drummers is a good question.

Poker depends mightily on the legions of amateurs who feed players into the satelites who feed players into the big events. Pool definitely has the depth of amateur players who play regularly. There are plenty of decent players who feel like they could hang with the big boys if they had the chance. A super grassroots operation would have and may still create that base for pool.

No one can take away the milestones the IPT has passed. If the last tournament goes unpaid it will of course be the largest default on prize money in pool's history but to be fair it will have followed the largest payouts in pool history. Another point that has not been mentioned is that when all of the expenses of the players are counted in from the IPT's inception until now, including all of the players who have played in qualifiers, the resulting amount is a mere fraction of the prize money that has been awarded already. This should be kept in mind when words like scam and criminal intent are used to describe the IPT and it's founder.

Unlike other notable promoters who have absconded with or otherwise not paid out monies that were mostly supplied by the players themselves, at least in this case the prize fund was much greater than the investment made by the participants.

It will be incredibly sad and bitter for the players who fought valiantly at the last tournament if they do not recieve the prizes they earned and were promised. It will be a further blow if the IPT does cease to exist because they it will deal a severe blow to the dreams and hopes of hundreds of great players and thousands more who were ready to commit to the tour.

But that will still not erase the fact that the IPT has given diehard pool fans a glimpse into what pool could be. It will not erase the memories of grand tournament rooms, attentive staff, luxury green rooms, a truly hard competitive enviroment with no easy draws and the idea that someone once believed enough in pool and poolplayers to invest that much into it and them.

Nicely written, I appreciate some of your specific insights.

 

[Roadie]

The IPT has shown that there are definitely players from around the world who will step up to follow their dream.....

.... That was never in any doubt surely? Show them the money and they'll step up....no praise due to IPT whatsoever for showing what is blindingly obvious...

The fact that Trudeau did actually "show the money" (literally and figuratively) is still something that no other promoter has done on that scale. It is pretty much indisputable that he paid out far more in prizes and spent more on production than anyone else to date. It is still a huge milestone that so many players competed for "tour cards" and continue to compete for a chance at a "tour card" despite the speculated evaporation of the money. I agree that players will follow the money. It was widely held on this board that no one would pay $1000/$1500/$2000 to play in qualifiers and I think this has been disproven, albeit not as convincingly as perhaps Trudeau had hoped for.


..... Another point that has not been mentioned is that when all of the expenses of the players are counted in from the IPT's inception until now, including all of the players who have played in qualifiers, the resulting amount is a mere fraction of the prize money that has been awarded already. This should be kept in mind when words like scam and criminal intent are used to describe the IPT and it's founder.....

.... Well whoopee schit,let's have a party! Fair enough taken as an aggregate but the reality is that many individuals will be 'out' what are huge sums of money for them,for example all the players who only qualified for The World Open and not the NA Open.Those players or their backers will have lost several thousand dollars each without receving a cent in return.All the players investing in qualifier entry fees will also be 'out' at least 2,000/- each with not a cent in return.It will be absolutely no consolation whatsoever to any of those people to know that there is a sugar coated viewpoint that on a summarised aggregate more in total was paid out to players than was invested by players...

You are right. On individual levels there will be losses that may or may not be expensive to the players and their backers. In my lifetime I have seen dozens of top players, hundreds of shortstops and their assorted backers bet far more on far less. So while this will certainly sting for some as far as expenses they have incurred, it pales in comparison to what Trudeau (or whatever person or institution that put up the money) will have lost if this thing does indeed fail. I am not trying to defend the IPT - the topic of this thread is an opinon that the IPT is failing. Fair enough an opinion to have considering current affairs and past experiences by Mr. Helfert. It is really unfair to only show the negatives without mentioning the positives is my only point here. It is a fact that the IPT has paid out far more than it has taken in. It is also a fact that other than late payments to players and referrers(inexcusable and shameful) that the IPT does not appear to be near death through any other evidence, at least none that I have seen through the discussions here.

.....But that will still not erase the fact that the IPT has given diehard pool fans a glimpse into what pool could be. It will not erase the memories of grand tournament rooms, attentive staff, luxury green rooms, a truly hard competitive enviroment with no easy draws and the idea that someone once believed enough in pool and poolplayers to invest that much into it and them.....

... On the contrary it is actually a blinding light of clarity as regards what pool cannot possibly be.If you had asked any player before the first IPT tournament first started if they would rather have genuinely guaranteed sizeable prize money and the tournament staged in a middle of the road venue or an iffy guarantee of huge prize money and the tournament staged in glitzy venues with fancy practice/tournament rooms and free masseurs/food etc it is a nailed on certainty that every single one would choose the former...

I'd have to agree with you that any smart player would take the guaranteed event over the questionable one. Until a tournament has independent 3rd party verification of available funds there will be no "guarantee" that is not "iffy". I believe that if you were to poll the players going into the Reno event what strength they would have given to the "guaranteed" prize money advertised by the IPT that nearly every one of them would have said "it's a lock". Ask the same of players going into the recent US Open and I believe the answer would have been closer to "iffy". The purpose is not to question the production costs the IPT chose to incur, it is to state simply that the IPT did in fact produce tournaments with more grandeur, more excitement, more glitz, and even more professionalism by both players and staff, than any others in recent memory. The World Championships by Matchroom comes in second and the US Open a distant third in my opinion. I choose to take the glass half full approach and believe that pool can be a sport that enjoys grand venues, with the best players celebrated for their skills with accolades and wealth. Perhaps you are correct that pool can never be that. Being that Trudeau's past is often cited to use as evidence that history repeats itself, I would advise anyone that does study history for clues to the future to consider that both billiards and pool have had periods of intense mass attention. At one time the triumphs of professional cueists was indeed front page news in many developed countries. So I hope that simple optimism is not misinterpreted as being apologetic for the inexcuseable behavior of the IPT currently.

Your post is no doubt from the heart and honestly well intended but has the air of syrupy sentiment that is unlikely to be bought into by many of those out of pocket and I fear that even those who share your feelings may find them fading with time as reality sets in.They will probably be replaced with anger.

The concepts proposed are just a subjective view of the whole IPT experience from a distance. There is no intention to be a salve for anyone who is currently being severely inconvenienced both financially and mentally by the IPT's actions. As I said, this is not an emotional analysis but hopefully one that takes into account both the positive as well as the negative aspects of this controversial entity.

In fact, in the event that the IPT does declare insolvency, I hope that those who are owed prize money as well as those who have invested in the current round of qualifiers will seek legal redress. Perhaps those on this board who like to bet on things would care to back the legal fees for a percentage of the return. I wonder if we would get as nice a website as the IPT has put up in order to follow the proceedings.

 

[TX Poolnut]

Perhaps we are witnessing the sinking of the equivalent of the billiards Titanic.

 

[jjinfla]

Roadie,

In one day, and in only 4 relatively short posts, you managed to state what I have been saying since Orlando.

Your only problem is that you are using common sense and logic, two things sorely missing in a lot of pool players.

Your posts have put the original naysayers off balance. As soon as they figure out what you said they will attack you in force. Not what you said, just you.

Where do you live? You surely don't sound like the average pool player. Nor a road player.


Jake

 

[cheesemouse]

Roadie,
It is always refreshing for another mostly interested/informed/reasonable lurker and now poster to come on the scene and present a well thought out and objective view. I thank you for the effort. From reading between the lines I believe you know that all of this is much to do about nothing. It is out of our hands. We lovers of pool who are paying attention(lurkers, heavy posters, sometime posters, and all inbetween) all hope the IPT somehow pulls IT out and continues to provide bigtime pool for our pleasure. Like you, I choose to ride out the bumpy road w/o ominous predictions of pending doom simply because I don't have the information. I don't think any of the doomers have the inside info either, but they will persist as it is there plot in life. As a pool player I am just naturally optimistic. I hope for the best when I pull the trigger. In pool terms the IPT is trying to out run the nuts and I hope they win.

 

[tedkaufman]

Roadie, I don't know who you are, but I will tell you this, I have seen very, very few posts here as well thought out and presented as yours, and none as well written. I also feel your views are objective and clear sighted, and a refreshing change from the incoherent, hysterical blathering more common on this forum. Please post more regularly.

The fact is, the IPT was not a scam. How could it be a scam if it paid out an order of magnitude more than it took in? Certainly some players may suffer loses of expense money if in the end no further money comes from the IPT. But what a grand ride! How many of the IPT practitioners would you say gambled away far more and had a lot less fun? Imagine playing on a world stage, pampered as never before ... some scam, I'd say.

I will say this, if the IPT fails at this point, credit goes to KT. At least he got up and swung the bat. If he struck out, so be it. But at least he was grand in failure. That's a damn sight better in my view than the glorious sideline critic.

 

[Ruthless]

Jake - I wish for the best to happen, but it seems like the IPT is playing a game of dodgeball right now. Even Sigel has not been seen or heard from since Reno by any of his local friends.

Roadie - It appears to me more like the USS Minnow than the Titanic.

Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

Off to a players meeting (The Seminoles pay promptly at the end) have a good day everyone

 

[Island Drive]

It was doomed from the off. The business model was completely warped.

PP
I don't know if warped describes it, but poor planning-or lack of a total plan and whats important in life to KT did become visible. There was so much wasted monies spent that could of been funnelled where you get a bang for every buck you spent. A prudent businees person could of put together an effective venue with a million dollar budget and been more successful. KT is a great front man, but to keep it together in the back/middle and future is a whole nother issue. It feels like KT shot from the hip on this one, and the only way he can get his gun out of the holster and not shoot his foot is through his area of expertise, he has to sell the IPT, or the tv production or whats left to stop the bleeding. His out of pocket is obviously done, its gotta come from someone elses pocket.

 

[jay helfert]

No gentlemen, just a person who has watched the IPT from it's inception, it's skeptical reception, it's grand events, and now it's shameful predicament. I have watched the participants of this board tear each other apart to the point of denigrating each other's values over opinions about the IPT.

The facts in my previous post are true as far as I can see it. I don't really come down one way or the other except to try and promote a positive attitude towards the situation.

It is my opinion that perhaps a little more perspective should be gained when dissecting the IPT. From all that I have read about this on this forum during the last year it is obvious that there is a great amount of polarity and personality tied to this subject.

My goal is to share my analysis without interjecting much in the way of morality or premature judgement. I realize that I cannot be totally and scholarly subjective but I sincerely hope not to offend anyone's feelings.

I hope that anything I write can be discussed without the personal confrontation that seems to mar so much of the discussion when it comes to the IPT.

I don't really see where in my analysis that I have defended the IPT. If someone would care to quote that part which they feel I did then I will discuss it further and provide either a reason for what I said or a retraction if I said anything that is not true or reasonable.

Otherwise, anyone is free to speculate on both my motivations, use of drugs or whatever you would like to do besides talk about the points I make. I hope you will forgive me if I don't play along. I really don't intend to do much more than lurk and put up a post once in a while when I feel really inspired to as I have been by the current discussion.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[jay helfert]

Roadie, I don't know who you are, but I will tell you this, I have seen very, very few posts here as well thought out and presented as yours, and none as well written. I also feel your views are objective and clear sighted, and a refreshing change from the incoherent, hysterical blathering more common on this forum. Please post more regularly.

The fact is, the IPT was not a scam. How could it be a scam if it paid out an order of magnitude more than it took in? Certainly some players may suffer loses of expense money if in the end no further money comes from the IPT. But what a grand ride! How many of the IPT practitioners would you say gambled away far more and had a lot less fun? Imagine playing on a world stage, pampered as never before ... some scam, I'd say.

I will say this, if the IPT fails at this point, credit goes to KT. At least he got up and swung the bat. If he struck out, so be it. But at least he was grand in failure. That's a damn sight better in my view than the glorious sideline critic.

Ted, your point is well taken. It is one thing to try and fail, and another thing to lie and fail. And still another thing to invite multitudes of players from all over the planet to come (at great expense) to this big party in Reno......and then stiff them. That will never sit well with me.

If he paid these guys off and quit, I would applaud his efforts. This includes ALL money owed.

 

[Island Drive]

If he paid these guys off and quit, I would applaud his efforts. This includes ALL money owed.[/QUOTE]


Jay I will help you on this thought, (be surprised/not applaud) is what you really meant but its too easy to bash knowing that another poster not far behind will take care of these matters in short order . There are some real children like comments on allot of matters lately, reminds me of the idiots I see running around a pool room on a Fri. or Sat. night.